Front Bumper Crosslays

[firedude 985]

KME's newest innovation:

Photo and description courtesy of KME Fire Apparatus

Dorset Fire Department is about to take delivery of their new Pumper Rescue, featuring crosslays in the front bumper. Having the crosslays in the front bumper is not only beneficial because the hose is low and easily accessible, but it keeps the hose away from the pump operator for safer deployment.

I like it...

Edited March 23, 2012 by firedude

[antiquefirelt 994]

KME's newest innovation:

Photo and description courtesy of KME Fire Apparatus

I like it...

That is not a new innovation. It maybe a new KME option, but innovation? Not so fast, there are tons of apparatus out there with this or similar hose troughs.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When (not if) the rig is involved in a crash, I want a solid bumper infront. Their is no way that this bumper is atttached to the frame structure so that its crash worthy.

Also willing to bet, that a very minor tap or even a minor contact with the ground (as when pulling into a steep driveway) will fold this bumper right up into the front of the rig.

And if you need to tow it or pull it out you better not secure to it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bnechis

[firedude 985]

That is not a new innovation. It maybe a new KME option, but innovation? Not so fast, there are tons of apparatus out there with this or similar hose troughs.

Maybe innovation is the wrong word but this is a new option from KME.

[Pagers 197]

Can that even be characterized as a bumper then, lol, I don't see any protection that it gives to the vehicle. Or is that even an "approved" bumper by DOT?

[PCC030664 2]

By the time I retired from my former dept., all 4 of the large suppression apparatus (including the platform tower) had the shallow tray with the "trashline" in the front bumper. This seemed to replace the "booster reels" which were no longer being ordered. This came in very handy for vehicle, brush, and dumpster fires rather than pulling one of the side preconnects. The front lines were 100 ft. and could be loaded in two rolls that could be "bowled out" with the nozzle on the end. I can't remember exactly how this worked.

I have seen pictures of rigs that have two full 150/200 ft. "minuteman" loads on the front bumper. That would appear to be the case here.

Phil

Edited March 24, 2012 by PCC030664

[Pagers 197]

I love bumper cross-lays, but I think it is going too far...

[Bnechis 3,961]

While not a "cross lay". The below bumper is rated for at least 30,000 Lbs. and the rig can be lifted by it. It is attached to the frame rails.

It has a 200' x 1.75" preconnected foam line and a 100' x 1.75" trash line (but room to make it a 200' line) Also 1) 5 gal foam pail, 1 eductor and 2 foam nozzles. Both lines are set up as double donut rolls to deploy as clean as cross lays.

[FireMedic049 597]

I wouldn't necessarily classify this option as a "crosslay". Typically a "crosslay" is an attack line. To me, the plumbing and it's location in the trough looks like it's a front intake for a small load of LDH.

[BIGRED1 71]

Well it is not a new idea but it is still a decent idea. Not great as per the above mentioned reason of zero front end protection. Perhaps there is heavy gauge support under the trough up into the bumper. I would think that in a crash that thing would fold like a cheap suit.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Well it is not a new idea but it is still a decent idea. Not great as per the above mentioned reason of zero front end protection. Perhaps there is heavy gauge support under the trough up into the bumper. I would think that in a crash that thing would fold like a cheap suit.

As BNECHIS posted there are alternatives that allow for a true bumper while also allowig truly deployable attack lines off the front bumper. One of the things we like about the load style chosen in BNECHIS's picture is that it allows the line to be stretched off the front instead of to the sides, where typically there are far more obstacles. This has always been a problem with cross laid loads in tight areas such as some city streets and private driveways. Our bumper holds two 200 foot preconnects in the double donut load that allow us to rapdily change to a line anywhere from 50 to 400 feet long, while still remaining a true bumper.

[Guest partyrock]

Do these people realize fire trucks do on occasion crash?? 200' of hose and some aluminum sheetmetal is a horrible idea. Its like all of the ridiculous chrome parade bumbers I see volunteer depts continue to order.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I do not have specifics relating to pulling weight, etc but this crosslay set-up seems to retain a good amount of the front bumpers integrity since the ends are not open. I am not sure of the towing capacity with the two hooks underneath the bumper. (Potsdam FD's Engine 49)

Edited March 25, 2012 by PFDRes47cue

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Not a crosslay but another front bumper option for hose storage. (Pleasantville FD's Rescue 47)

[IzzyEng4 427]

A cross lay like the picture in the OP's post is not that uncommon. A lot of people are missing the point here with crash protection. Everyone is looking at the very front of the bumper, which is only used to protect the front bumper extension, not the frame rails. The beef of the bumper should be in the original picture closer to the cab and everyone should be asking is what is the crash rating for the structural cross members directly under the front of the cab.

Is a fire engine without an extended bumper any safer with an extended bumper? What is the cross member's crash ratting that is closest to the cab and frame itself? Extended bumpers do add to the crash protection but are not the primary portion of the bumper, it is secondary.

Remember extended bumpers are just that, they still have to have a structural cross member for it to attach to directly under the cab. If that is not there then its crap.

Edited March 25, 2012 by IzzyEng4

[Bnechis 3,961]

I do not have specifics relating to pulling weight, etc but this crosslay set-up seems to retain a good amount of the front bumpers integrity since the ends are not open.

The strength has very little to do with the ends. Take a look at the four bolts (between the sirens & air horns), thats what attaches the bumper to the frame rail or frame rail extensions. Thats what gives it its strength. The frame rails are 6" (car) to 16" (tower) in height. The bumper in question (1st pic) does not appear to have a frame rail connection to the bumper.

What is most important in a good rig is what is underneath. Too many firefighters pay way more attention to how it looks, what lights are on it, or whose logo is on the grill.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now it is called a bumper because we expect it to come in contact with something. So in pic #1 we see that protecting the bumper is a $1,900 Federal Q2 siren.

Now I love the Q2 and I want to protect it, so we add 4 large rubber "bumpers" and 2 heavy duty stainless steel straps (cost: about $600)

Notice that we did not add hose on this bumper. The crew felt pulling it from a low rear bed was better and shortening the bumper extension improved the turning radius and the angle of approch.

[16fire5 693]

There is a common bumper load from a Maryland Department that is in use all over. It's 150' but all couplings are exposed so it can easily be shortened to 100 or 50'. It fits in a common deep bumper well. The lead lenght is a double donut which as other posters have noted is easy for the nozzle firefighter to effect flake out. It is a good compliment to departments that already have 200' crosslays by the pump panel. When ever we discuss hose loads we should not forget apparatus positioning and when it comes to apparatus positioning the first due truck still needs the front of the building. The last thing you want is and engine stopping to line up it's front bumper or crosslays with the front of the building.

[firedude 985]

Now it is called a bumper because we expect it to come in contact with something. So in pic #1 we see that protecting the bumper is a $1,900 Federal Q2 siren.

Now I love the Q2 and I want to protect it, so we add 4 large rubber "bumpers" and 2 heavy duty stainless steel straps (cost: about $600)

Notice that we did not add hose on this bumper. The crew felt pulling it from a low rear bed was better and shortening the bumper extension improved the turning radius and the angle of approch.

What about R4? Is that space between the reels and tools an extension of the frame?

Saratoga Springs E-562 has a full crosslay in the bumper

Edited March 25, 2012 by firedude

[Bnechis 3,961]

What about R4? Is that space between the reels and tools an extension of the frame?

Yes, the frame extensions are directly under the diamond plate between the reels & the tools. The tow eyes are bolted directly to them. The apparatus can be lifted by the eyes, because of the frame rail extensions. The winch mount is also anchored to the extension.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Delmar's Engine (written off of Albany Airport CFR specs) has both the in bumper crosslays and a structural steel bumper. The airport wrote the specs so that they could move stuff out of the way if it was absolutely necessary.

Sidebar - The name for this style bumper crosslay as available from Marion and Pierce is called the "Selkirk Crosslay" nammed after Selkirk, NY Fire (who has been ordering their pumpers like this for decades.