Busting Chops: Where's The Line?

[x635 4,066]

Where does on draw the line at the firehouse between busting chops and actually harrasing someone?

This is a major embarrasment from the LAFD, which has a deep affiliation with the Catholic Church. Some "Brotherhood"

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[Nickcv41 3]

Being a volunteer firefighter with only 4 years I have been the victim of a lot of ball busting. It is alright to kid around with people. But I feel there is a very fine and thin line between kidding around and just offending people. For example I feel it is alright to joke around with the way a guy might look, dress or act. But it is just wrong once you start offending the person's personal life, and certain things that are out of control. Also busting chops doesn't work on everyone. In firehouses there are unwritten rules that you know who you can mess around with and who you can't. If your a younger guy you really can't bust a senior man's chops, that's for the other senior men to do. Some people can take all the chop busting in the world, and some people can't take any of it. It all depends on what person you come across, or what kind of mood they are in that day

[Just a guy 493]

As far as the article goes, This guy was involved in 3 lawsuits that the article mentions, 2 EEOC lawsuits at work and the one against the church. The fact that the majority of people go through life haveing never filed ANY lawsuits, the fact that this guys has 3 makes me think that there may be more to this, he may be the problem.

If he was molested by a priest, fine, give him his due from the church. As far as breaking balls over that, if it is true and he was molested then breaking his balls over it may cross the line but it could also be possible that the guys at work knew more of the story and were breaking his balls over the fact that maybe it wasn't all true.

I've been on the job 14 years now and have taken my share of getting my stones broke but as I told the new guys that I trained over the summer, EVERYONE takes their turn on the wheel, this week you did or said something stupid to get f***** with and next week someone else with do or say something twice as dumb as you and it will take the heat off you and people will forget.

The Emergency services IS NOT the place to work if you are not thick skinned !!! Cops do all kinds of crazy s*** to each other, but it is all in good fun.

Ball breaking also has it's place among the men when it comes to correcting each others behavior. If somebody is doing something wrong on a consistent basis, and everyone breaks his balls over it, it's a way to let them know that they are f****** up and need to correct whatever the problem is.

Ball Breaking is also a form of acceptance. When a new guy comes into a command and nobody talks to him, he knows that he has finally been accepted when guys start breaking his balls but when a guy comes in and nobody talks to him or deals with him in any way then he has not been accepted by the guys.

[nfd2004 750]

I certainly agree with Crime Cop above. As a Retired Firefighter I think Thick Skin was part of the basic requirements. Those guys would remember everything and years later when the time came, whether it was me or anybody else, it was open game. If you showed signs that you couldn't take it, the gang would just get on you worse. There was no symphany.

At times, if someone would walk into the firehouse, they would think we hated each other. Everybody got their share and everybody dished it out. I'm glad I got many years of it that way. Things started to change and I think today, I'd be afraid to open my mouth. It's really kind of hard to explain, but it was a lot of fun even if you were on the recieving end.

[calhobs 110]

I do not know how much longer you can say "you have to have tough skin" when it starts to cost your municipality a half million dollars per person not "having tough skin". To say well the municipalities insurance pays for it, don't you think the municipalities' insurance rates go up and over time you pay the insurance company back instead of a lump sum number to the victim. We all want the public to respect us, but look at some of the comments from the taxpayers at the bottom of the article. Sounds like we are our own demise. I just think it is easier and cheaper to just use your brain and think before you open your mouth.

Look at it this way, what would you do if someone busted your wifes chops at work for being assulted by her father or brother, yes you would beat there a**, but also you would sue big time, or would you tell her "you have to have thick skin"?

Edited March 22, 2012 by calhobs

[FFLieu 70]

File this along side of the case regarding that idiot in Staten Island who got bashed in the face with the chair, then tried to sue the department for 3/4 disability pay. The party involved in this case was employed by the department for 26 years, so I'm sure that he was the recipient (and most likely, the sender, too) of some good, old fashioned ball breaking way during his career. Using that timeline, he came on the job in approximately 1985 or 1986 (with the abuse occurring probably sometime around the late 1960s and/or the 1970s), so he waits till he's a 20+ year vet before he throws a flag regarding nothing more than words? Yes, it's morally reprehensible to joke about something as egregious and as widespread as being victimized by someone in a position of trust, but there has got to be more to this story than what meets the eye. How many times did he ever say anything in his career that is akin to putting the proverbial foot in his mouth? Surely, he has done it - he is human, after all - but if he's done it in his capacity as a fire fighter, then his case lacks credibility.

[calhobs 110]

File this along side of the case regarding that idiot in Staten Island who got bashed in the face with the chair, then tried to sue the department for 3/4 disability pay. The party involved in this case was employed by the department for 26 years, so I'm sure that he was the recipient (and most likely, the sender, too) of some good, old fashioned ball breaking way during his career. Using that timeline, he came on the job in approximately 1985 or 1986 (with the abuse occurring probably sometime around the late 1960s and/or the 1970s), so he waits till he's a 20+ year vet before he throws a flag regarding nothing more than words? Yes, it's morally reprehensible to joke about something as egregious and as widespread as being victimized by someone in a position of trust, but there has got to be more to this story than what meets the eye. How many times did he ever say anything in his career that is akin to putting the proverbial foot in his mouth? Surely, he has done it - he is human, after all - but if he's done it in his capacity as a fire fighter, then his case lacks credibility.

FFlieu I fully understand what your saying, but the fact is he sued and won. Does not matter if was done years ago or if he delt out some chop busting himself. Now days people sue for everything, and the tax payers are tired of footing the bill. They have very little respect for us and things like this does not help when we open our mouths and cost them money. I am not saying dont bust chops but its really to the point of think before you speak, it comes out cheaper.

[nfd2004 750]

I do not know how much longer you can say "you have to have tough skin" when it starts to cost your municipality a half million dollars per person not "having tough skin". To say well the municipalities insurance pays for it, don't you think the municipalities' insurance rates go up and over time you pay the insurance company back instead of a lump sum number to the victim. We all want the public to respect us, but look at some of the comments from the taxpayers at the bottom of the article. Sounds like we are our own demise. I just think it is easier and cheaper to just use your brain and think before you open your mouth.

Look at it this way, what would you do if someone busted your wifes chops at work for being assulted by her father or brother, yes you would beat there a**, but also you would sue big time, or would you tell her "you have to have thick skin"?

I really can NOT disagree with you or anybody else on this. My point is that, in my opinion, we all just had clean fun at everybody's expense. Now to explain that, I guess is pretty diffucult to anybody who wasn't apart of it. Actually, I think it was GOOD FOR MORAL. Now try to figure that one out. There were certain subjects that were NEVER discussed. Family was one. Race and religion was another. No one ever had to have "Thick Skin" for that, because it was never an issue or even thought about. There was actually a Great amount of respect for each other, although in the firehouse it would sometimes seem to be almost that of a battle zone. And when we went out the door, those guys that had just acted like little kids in a Day Care, gave a service that was second to none.

I still keep in touch with many of my retired and active brothers, many who now live throughout this country. I certainly recieved my share, of a good Verbal Beating. In fact we all did. Speaking for myself, I'm glad I was a part of it from 1975 to 2004. Of course things started to change near the end. Instead of giving the old Verbal Beating in front of Everybody, I noticed there was more talking behind each others back.

So no longer is "thick skin" an unwritten requirement. Nobody takes a verbal beating at the kitchen table anymore. The verbal beating they take is behind closed doors, where an individual can't even try to defend themselves. At least I had a chance to speak my piece when the time came.

So today, we only speak of what is politically correct at that kitchen table. There is no need to have "Thick Skin". I guess if you happen to get a few strange looks during the day, it was your turn to get that Verbal Beating, "BEHIND CLOSED DOORS".

[LTFIREPRG 154]

3 simple rules to follow,

1. If you are going to dish it out, then you better be able to take it in return.

2. Before you dish it out, ask yourself how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

3. When someone tells you to stop, stop, it is no longer busting chops but now harassment.

[calhobs 110]

I really can NOT disagree with you or anybody else on this. My point is that, in my opinion, we all just had clean fun at everybody's expense. Now to explain that, I guess is pretty diffucult to anybody who wasn't apart of it. Actually, I think it was GOOD FOR MORAL. Now try to figure that one out. There were certain subjects that were NEVER discussed. Family was one. Race and religion was another. No one ever had to have "Thick Skin" for that, because it was never an issue or even thought about. There was actually a Great amount of respect for each other, although in the firehouse it would sometimes seem to be almost that of a battle zone. And when we went out the door, those guys that had just acted like little kids in a Day Care, gave a service that was second to none.

I still keep in touch with many of my retired and active brothers, many who now live throughout this country. I certainly recieved my share, of a good Verbal Beating. In fact we all did. Speaking for myself, I'm glad I was a part of it from 1975 to 2004. Of course things started to change near the end. Instead of giving the old Verbal Beating in front of Everybody, I noticed there was more talking behind each others back.

So no longer is "thick skin" an unwritten requirement. Nobody takes a verbal beating at the kitchen table anymore. The verbal beating they take is behind closed doors, where an individual can't even try to defend themselves. At least I had a chance to speak my piece when the time came.

So today, we only speak of what is politically correct at that kitchen table. There is no need to have "Thick Skin". I guess if you happen to get a few strange looks during the day, it was your turn to get that Verbal Beating, "BEHIND CLOSED DOORS".

NFD2004, please do not think i was singling out anyones post. If is sounded that way please forgive me. You are 100000% right most of it happens behind closed doors now and is does not matter if its personal or professional. That is where most of the verbal beatings come from now.

[ex-commish 490]

I've had mine broken and broke them back with the rest of them. Never took it personal, never was personal giving it back. Unfortunately today it is a different climate. People to quick to sue. Gotta be careful what you say or do.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Ball busting is large part of every day life in the firehouse. Most days things that are said and done would likely shock many people who don't work in places where the bond between employees is actually far more than just that. That being said, anytime the jokes are so pointed that you know they're hurtful to the person or you're saying/doing things to inflict pain then it's gone too far. I've seen it happen with a couple of guys hammering each other back and forth until one's a little pissed and goes to far. Also, it's one thing to joke with the person, but when you're whispering it in the corner and talking about whatever the issue is without the person present, likely it's no longer joking.

This topic may be what I consider one of the hardest parts of those is a supervisory role. The PC stuff hadn't really come to our FD before I started and we've long busted stones on a daily basis. We also were all male and totally devoid of any ethnicity and nearly devoid of any strong religious beliefs. A lot has changed, we've had homosexual firefighters, guys that weren't lily white like the rest of us, and about 10% are women, and at least a few pretty religious guys. So in a short few years things changed while many guys tried not to recognize we had to change too. No one wants to constantly be telling people to shut up or watch what they say. On the other hand not stopping these behaviors before they get out of hand is the job of any officer. To somewhat maintain a balance you must know the audience and ensure your crew knows as well what is tolerated and when. Is this the HR answer? No. And likely it opens up some liability, but the "right" answer is nearly impossible to achieve in this type of environment and is likely somewhat counter-productive. Busting stones and practical jokes are the signs of happy crews who have bonded well. A crew that remains silent and sits on their hands during idle time is just a group of individuals doing the same job.

[INIT915 1,119]

3 simple rules to follow,

1. If you are going to dish it out, then you better be able to take it in return.

2. Before you dish it out, ask yourself how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

3. When someone tells you to stop, stop, it is no longer busting chops but now harassment.

Perfect advice. Simple, straight to the point, and easy for even the most dim-witted of our brethren to comprehend.

[nfd2004 750]

NFD2004, please do not think i was singling out anyones post. If is sounded that way please forgive me. You are 100000% right most of it happens behind closed doors now and is does not matter if its personal or professional. That is where most of the verbal beatings come from now.

"calhobs", I certainly didn't feel at all that you were singling me out. Not at all there guy. (got the pm too).

I guess you can go back there a few years yourself. Me too. It was a competely different time. Not to get too off track here, but there just wasn't a term called "politically correct". We never heard of a thing called "Road Rage". In school we got in trouble for chewing gum, not for carrying a gun. We all went to the neighborhood school and nobody had to be bused from one side of the city to the other. Armed police officers or security guards didn't have to walk the school hallways. In most cities we left our doors Unlocked and didn't need security bars on the windows. These are just a few of the dozens of changes that occurred over the years along with "busting chops' as we once knew it.

So do most people think we've made successful progress over the years since we all now have a pretty good understanding of what we can say or not say. It seems at least to me that things like "Road Rage", "Home Invasions",or "School Shootings" are much more of a serious problem today than "busting chops" would ever be. I guess maybe one of the reasons that "busting chops" could be considered serious is that maybe it could lead to violence. But I don't remember any of Our "busting chops' leading to violence. Maybe a little ego destroyer, but thats about it.

[bob803 1]

The article stated he brought it tom managements attention to me that is as good as a formal complaint and the so called ball breaking must stop.

[everybodygoes 331]

Stay away from faith and family, your wife is not family :-) If I worked with someone openly gay I would avoid that one too, way too many derogatory comments that could be misconstrued.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Where does on draw the line at the firehouse between busting chops and actually harrasing someone?

Depends, how thin is that person's skin...

Stay away from faith and family, your wife is not family :-) If I worked with someone openly gay I would avoid that one too, way too many derogatory comments that could be misconstrued.

Nothing is sacred at the kitchen table.

All kidding aside, you can't put your finger on one topic or another as being over the line. Somehow, it's all in how it's delivered. Some are just nice guys, good buddies and TERRIFIC ball busters. No matter what the topic, you don't mind being in their barrel. Other guys might just rub someone the wrong way. When you work in a firehouse with a lot of different personalities, there are bound to be some you don't like. If I have a touchy relationship with a guy, I'm not going to break his balls. He's not going to take it and odds are, I don't care enough to want to engage him. Someone you have a great re pore with, that's another story. The best guys to see "go at it", breaking chops and such, are the two who are terrific friends.

There's a lot of truth to what they tell probies as they come through the door, "if they're breaking your balls kid, it's cause they like ya".

Edited March 23, 2012 by M' Ave

[210 91]

Depends, how thin is that person's skin...

Nothing is sacred at the kitchen table.

All kidding aside, you can't put your finger on one topic or another as being over the line. Somehow, it's all in how it's delivered. Some are just nice guys, good buddies and TERRIFIC ball busters. No matter what the topic, you don't mind being in their barrel. Other guys might just rub someone the wrong way. When you work in a firehouse with a lot of different personalities, there are bound to be some you don't like. If I have a touchy relationship with a guy, I'm not going to break his balls. He's not going to take it and odds are, I don't care enough to want to engage him. Someone you have a great re pore with, that's another story. The best guys to see "go at it", breaking chops and such, are the two who are terrific friends.

There's a lot of truth to what they tell probies as they come through the door, "if they're breaking your balls kid, it's cause they like ya".

Amen. This was true in my service career that began in the early 80's. I've been with a PD now for ten years and I'm fortunate that it's not a crazy politically correct organization. However, I caution everyone to be careful and think before they speak. The good old days are over. NFD2004, I feel your pain. And for the new guys, as stated by someone earlier, never let them know what really gets to you. Once they figure that out your dead meat. It's all good.

Edited March 23, 2012 by 210

[nfd2004 750]

The good old days are over. NFD2004, I feel your pain.

I certainly understand that. I'm just glad I was a part of it. I really hate to admit it, but I'm glad I'm on the outside looking in now. With all the back and forth busting chops, we were still a very tight group. I've been told its not like that in many places these days. That's been lost. It's SAD, "very Sad".

Edited March 23, 2012 by nfd2004

[Spartan052 43]

There's a lot of truth to what they tell probies as they come through the door, "if they're breaking your balls kid, it's cause they like ya".

you know what thats what they told me i get my balls busted and so do they but we know where the line is and ththats all i have to say other than the traditions of the past are lost

Edited March 23, 2012 by Spartan052

[M' Ave 1,466]

you know what thats what they told me i get my balls busted and so do they but we know where the line is and ththats all i have to say other than the traditions of the past are lost

Spartan, a period or a comma won't kill ya

Listen, traditions and the past are not lost. You're too young to be so jaded. Look up, the future's brighter than you think. You know what else they told me when I got on the job? "This is a great job, but it ain't what it used to be". Well, they told my grandfather the same thing in 1951. That's a silly line of crap that doesn't need to be true. This job is great and can continue to be great if we want it to be. We can all make little adjustments without ruining the purity of our jobs and the relationships we have there.

Edited March 23, 2012 by M' Ave

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Spartan, a period or a coma won't kill ya

Listen, traditions and the past are not lost. You're too young to be so jaded. Look up, the future's brighter than you think. You know what else they told me when I got on the job? "This is a great job, but it ain't what it used to be". Well, they told my grandfather the same thing in 1951. That's a silly line of crap that doesn't need to be true. This job is great and can continue to be great if we want it to be. We can all make little adjustments without ruining the purity of our jobs and the relationships we have there.

Great post. I'm lovin' it.

[stvrap79 8]

Sorry if this may seem a little off-topic. What are your opinions on use of language? I've heard of individuals who have lodged complaints when the ball busting wasn't directed at them or was non-existent. They have simply been offended by use of cursing or "insensitive" remarks. Maybe there can be a limit on what's said around the firehouse, but is fair to other members to have walk on eggshells every time John/Jane is around?

[firemoose827 324]

As far as the article goes, This guy was involved in 3 lawsuits that the article mentions, 2 EEOC lawsuits at work and the one against the church. The fact that the majority of people go through life haveing never filed ANY lawsuits, the fact that this guys has 3 makes me think that there may be more to this, he may be the problem.

If he was molested by a priest, fine, give him his due from the church. As far as breaking balls over that, if it is true and he was molested then breaking his balls over it may cross the line but it could also be possible that the guys at work knew more of the story and were breaking his balls over the fact that maybe it wasn't all true.

I've been on the job 14 years now and have taken my share of getting my stones broke but as I told the new guys that I trained over the summer, EVERYONE takes their turn on the wheel, this week you did or said something stupid to get f***** with and next week someone else with do or say something twice as dumb as you and it will take the heat off you and people will forget.

The Emergency services IS NOT the place to work if you are not thick skinned !!! Cops do all kinds of crazy s*** to each other, but it is all in good fun.

Ball breaking also has it's place among the men when it comes to correcting each others behavior. If somebody is doing something wrong on a consistent basis, and everyone breaks his balls over it, it's a way to let them know that they are f****** up and need to correct whatever the problem is.

Ball Breaking is also a form of acceptance. When a new guy comes into a command and nobody talks to him, he knows that he has finally been accepted when guys start breaking his balls but when a guy comes in and nobody talks to him or deals with him in any way then he has not been accepted by the guys.

I certainly agree with Crime Cop above. As a Retired Firefighter I think Thick Skin was part of the basic requirements. Those guys would remember everything and years later when the time came, whether it was me or anybody else, it was open game. If you showed signs that you couldn't take it, the gang would just get on you worse. There was no symphany.

At times, if someone would walk into the firehouse, they would think we hated each other. Everybody got their share and everybody dished it out. I'm glad I got many years of it that way. Things started to change and I think today, I'd be afraid to open my mouth. It's really kind of hard to explain, but it was a lot of fun even if you were on the recieving end.

I love the over use of the term "Thick Skin" here. Guys (and I mean everyone reading and posting in this thread, not just the ones I have quoted, these are just examples), there is a difference between busting someones balls over tripping on hose at last weeks drill or flat out harrassing someone over something as personal as this guys issue...BIG difference.

We also do not know all of the details, this poor guy could have been fighting this for years and it somehow got out in the station. If you were sexually abused by someone of the same sex, would you be eager to tell someone?

I am all for busting balls about everyday stuff, I do it all the time and I am on the receiving end a lot as well, and it never bothers anyone. Like mentioned above, I stay away from religion, someones family (serious issues anyway), and someones sexual preference, but if you screw up at a drill, or make some kind of mistake around me you are open game.

Thick skin has nothing to do with this guy from CA, he was abused, and that could screw you up big time both emotionally and physically, and as brothers the "friends" that he works with should have supported him in some way instead of what they did, they are nothing but A** H***S and have hopefully lost all respect from all their brothers/sisters in CA.

I was a Junior Firefighter in Long Island for about 4 years, and that was brutal...and I was only 14, 15 years old, but I still took what they dished out and smiled about it and they respected me for it because I never cried to my mommy or daddy, I even gave it back a few times and made my father proud (and angry at the language I used but he got over it).

Busting balls about something a brother did last weekend at a barbeque is one thing, but taking someones personal life and making a bad situation worse...I cant and wont agree with anyone about that being acceptable in any way.

[FFD941 20]

What's wrong with a good ol' fashioned a** whoppin' anymore? Why is the first words out of everyones mouth always sue, sue, sue?

In regards to the article, yes it went too far. As soon as the employee said stop it shouldn't have gone any farther.

However on a side note, what are your opinions on those employees who never say anything and just "take-it" but then all of a sudden you're getting a subpoena in a discrimination case?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Maybe there can be a limit on what's said around the firehouse, but is fair to other members to have walk on eggshells every time John/Jane is around?

Sadly, to make matters even more difficult, the HR people will tell you that modifiying behavior in certain people's presence is still wrong and constitutes wrongdoing, likely on the part of the department or officers. They'd like everyone to be proper and polite 100% of the time, period.

Chances are if someone doesn't like something, they can win a suit or settlement and the FD or whoever will end up looking bad. Very few civilians will understand the "Hey it's the firehouse, things are different here than everywhere else in", 2012. This is one issue where both "sides" will never be happy, so finding a balance is key.