Do We Really Need To Cut The Battery?

[x635 4,066]

It's become somewhat of a standard at an MVA to cut the battery.

However, I'm starting to see some departments getting out of that standard. It seems like cutting the battery is causing a lot more harm then good. Some departments are cutting batteries when they don't or shouldn't even be cut, like on fender benders.

For example, some FD's may cut the battery on a car that's blocking traffic but driveable. This delays clearing the roadway, which is important to prevent secondary collision and to get everyone out of traffic.

Also, departments will cut the battery cable on a simple extrication (meaning just removing the patient) may hinder things, for example not being able to move power seats back.

On the end of the car owner, cuting battery cables when they can easily be disconnected can cost hundreds of dollars to repair or replace.

Whaddya y'all think?

[SSCharged E100 7]

Exaxtly. If you have the man power and one guy standing around dot cut it get a little wretch and take the terminal off.

Lately BMW have been making automatic battery discharges. If the cars airbag system senses an accident it has a little CO2 cartridge on the battery terminal and pops off, therefore disconnecting the battery. I dont know how good it is but i work in a body shop and have changed that wire on a bmw twice already.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Disconnect the Negative Terminal.

If/once you FIND the battery in these newer cars....

[efdcapt115 1,511]

It's become somewhat of a standard at an MVA to cut the battery.

However, I'm starting to see some departments getting out of that standard. It seems like cutting the battery is causing a lot more harm then good. Some departments are cutting batteries when they don't or shouldn't even be cut, like on fender benders.

For example, some FD's may cut the battery on a car that's blocking traffic but driveable. This delays clearing the roadway, which is important to prevent secondary collision and to get everyone out of traffic.

Also, departments will cut the battery cable on a simple extrication (meaning just removing the patient) may hinder things, for example not being able to move power seats back.

On the end of the car owner, cuting battery cables when they can easily be disconnected can cost hundreds of dollars to repair or replace.

Whaddya y'all think?

The answer as in so many other cases in this business; it depends. Assessing the urgency and priority of actions to be taken on a vehicle depends first and foremost on the existing risks to the victim/s and potential dangers to rescuers.

Disconnecting the battery may or may not be a priority depending on the potential for the electrical system in the vehicle to involve further damage. This shall be of the highest priority to determine. Spilled or leaking fuel, smoke or burning smells, sparks, extensive damage to the vehicle, and the surrounding environment should alert you to a higher hazard. Particularly if the victim/s are compromised and cannot be moved away from the vehicle expeditiously if needed. Any of these hazards should be considered a potential IDLH, and a line should be stretched and charged. The battery should be disconnected immediately.

It is usually better to disconnect the terminal as opposed to cutting the cable, but once again it depends on the urgency. Cutting the cable at a fender-bender with no apparent hazards presenting is mindless. Cutting the cable is the fastest way to eliminate an electric hazard, and you're going to have to use good judgement for those times when it is necessary.

PS: Remember it's always the black/negative (-) terminal that comes off first and goes on last.

[SSCharged E100 7]

Yea exactly thats once you find the battery. I can say most newer cars do place them in the trunk of cars but i do know Dodge Intrepids have them inside the fender in front of the wheel, it is not accessible from the top you have to take off the wheel and liner to access it.

[OoO 24]

This is all I could think of while reading this post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzYxz_uvtSI

Edited March 20, 2012 by OoO

[Buff93 8]

I have read that many insurance companies will turn around and yell at FD's for cutting batteries on "fender benders". It is a big problem, especially with the new cars that everything from seat controls to air bag deployment mechanisms to hybrid batteries can cause a problem, and many FD are not up to date on what are possible outcomes if you do and don't cut these battery lines. It really comes down to a "good judgement" call, each scene is different with different variables so you really can't sit here and say when to cut or don't cut the battery

[ny10570 745]

I have read that many insurance companies will turn around and yell at FD's for cutting batteries on "fender benders". It is a big problem, especially with the new cars that everything from seat controls to air bag deployment mechanisms to hybrid batteries can cause a problem, and many FD are not up to date on what are possible outcomes if you do and don't cut these battery lines. It really comes down to a "good judgement" call, each scene is different with different variables so you really can't sit here and say when to cut or don't cut the battery

I'm confused on this one. When are insurance companies yelling at anyone? Battery cables run about $20. What damage are they causing to any of those systems? Batteries are removed from cars or simply disconnected all the time. The biggest PITA is anti theft codes after the battery is reconnected. Unless there is significant intrusion into the engine compartment or an extrication, there's no reason to cut/disconnect the battery. Other than making it an extra hassle when moving the vehicle where is the harm?

Edited March 20, 2012 by ny10570

[grumpyff 1,159]

Some of the battery cables on cars like BMW, Mercedes , etc cost into the hundreds of dollars. Disconnect them using a wrench/socket when ever possible. That way if you need to reconnect the power to lower a window into the door, move a seat, open a trunk (came across a Mercury with a trunk that only had a power release) you can do it. If the car is crushed to the point that cutting the battery is the only option, then you have no choice. If the car is not going to be towed away, leave the battery connected.

[shld6090 4]

Take the 6 seconds to remove the cable. It achieves the best of all worlds. You remove power to the entire system, if the car is still movable/drivable then after the occupants are removed a PO, or tow truck opporator can move the vehicle. And you dont cause any more damage. Plus I feel a slower approach to a sometimes uncontrolable event (highway or "bad spot" in the roadway) will allow rescuers to do a better size up.

[newsbuff 286]

I'm confused on this one. When are insurance companies yelling at anyone? Battery cables run about $20. What damage are they causing to any of those systems? Batteries are removed from cars or simply disconnected all the time. The biggest PITA is anti theft codes after the battery is reconnected. Unless there is significant intrusion into the engine compartment or an extrication, there's no reason to cut/disconnect the battery. Other than making it an extra hassle when moving the vehicle where is the harm?

Jumper cables cost $20. Vehicle wiring harnesses are what we are talking about. Big difference.

[everybodygoes 331]

Ever see an airbag go off after the fact? I don't really care about traffic or accidents caused by other morons not paying attention. I care about the safety of myself and the rest of the people I am working with. Just disconnect the battery. Just last week had a stolen Audi hit a parked car and have full airbag deployment. The car could not be placed in neutral, or have the parking brake released. we had to bounce the car over to get to the hydrant shut off beneath it. These engineers are getting way too smart!

[ny10570 745]

Some of the battery cables on cars like BMW, Mercedes , etc cost into the hundreds of dollars.

You're going to have to show me one of those. I just bought a negative cable and terminal for an '02 carrera for $45. It was only a few inches long and a single lead; but even a long multiple lead negative from the dealer shouldn't run you hundreds of dollars.

Jumper cables cost $20. Vehicle wiring harnesses are what we are talking about. Big difference.

Dollar store jumper cables cost $20. Good 4 gauge heavy duty cables start at $50-$60. Wiring harnesses?? I'm not talking about accessory power and and signal distribution. I'm talking about the thick black colored cable that comes off the negative (-) lead of your battery. The heavy gauge wire that completes the circuit of your cars electrical system and allows current to flow back into the battery. Not the bundle of wires plugged into a plastic socket.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I am a fan of disconnecting the battery without cutting if possible. Several people have mentioned having trouble locating batteries. This is something we have all experienced. I most recently experienced it on a Mini Cooper (2012). I was not sure where the battery was, I asked the driver and he said under the hood on the driver side behind the headlight...wrong. I looked and looked and finally found a very small compartment on the passenger side of the windshield wiper/cabin air intake bezel. Popped it open and sure enough a battery. FYI, the driver side has the same compartment but for windshield washer fluid.

It is not a bad idea to make a drill out of walking around car dealerships and checking out new cars. I have done this on several occasions...usually if you mention to the salesman/woman that you are in the emergency service field and explain what you are interested in doing, they will let you check out what ever cars you want.

...easy way to get "new technology" training.

[Newburgher 241]

You're going to have to show me one of those. I just bought a negative cable and terminal for an '02 carrera for $45. It was only a few inches long and a single lead; but even a long multiple lead negative from the dealer shouldn't run you hundreds of dollars.

http://www.mopar.com...i=994269&b=jeep Positive

http://www.mopar.com...i=994269&b=jeep Negative. Both for a 2012 Cherokee

Pretty common car. I know there are other vehicles with battery cables that are more than this. Are the worth it? Who knows. I know if I had an insurance claim, it isn't going to be fixed with some cobbled together part from Auto Zone! I pay my insurance company to fix it like it was before the claim.

I disconnect the battery connection, once we determine the seats and windows are where we want them, and door locks, trunk release etc. are activated as needed. Disabling the battery connection, de-energizes the air bags. I do the negative, then the positive. If it is unbolted, the cable can unbend, or spring back, and make the connection again. Disconnecting both, is extra insurance. We have gone to tons of MVAs where the airbag didn't, but should have deployed. I even saw one trigger before we got the battery disconnected. Using a wrench is the preffered method. However, we don't waste time trying to track down connections, or messing with compacted( due to impact) battery compartments. Sometimes, the bolt is rounded, the terminals are squooshed into the fender, etc. If we have to, we cut them. I have never had an insurance company "yell at me".

If the car is drivable, we can reconnect an unbolted terminal.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Newburgher

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here's a link to a post by Ron Moore (University of Extrication in Firehouse Magazine) regarding when three options with regard to batteries.

My link

[Newburgher 241]

http://www.mopar.com/part/68066102AD?s=335643&i=1968334&b=dodge

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=NjWerSiXtc3FbSa9WHfqpQ%3d%3d&id=186867566&m=2&search=true&year=2011&make=Ford&model=F-350+Super+Duty

A few more common vehicles

[FFLieu 70]

Personally, I would much rather disconnect the power source for the "bomb in the steering wheel" so I don't get bashed in the head at a couple hundred MPH while doing my thing inside the passenger compartment. More often than not, the cost of the wiring will be smaller than that of the overall damage, and if the car's a total anyway, then the insurance company will only write off the added cost as a business expense. And, I've never heard of any insurance company getting into a beef with an FD for doing what is an industry-accepted practice.

Edited March 20, 2012 by FFLieu

[BFD1054 1,552]

This is all I could think of while reading this post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzYxz_uvtSI

That video is F'in priceless lol, thanks for sharing OoO!!! Too bad ive seen some Fire and EMS agencies operate in similar fasion.

You're going to have to show me one of those. I just bought a negative cable and terminal for an '02 carrera for $45. It was only a few inches long and a single lead; but even a long multiple lead negative from the dealer shouldn't run you hundreds of dollars.

Im just impressed you have a Carrera, im jealous lol. My wife has an 08' Audi A4 and everything is more expensive on that damn car (esp from the dealer).

http://www.mopar.com...i=994269&b=jeep Positive

http://www.mopar.com...i=994269&b=jeep Negative. Both for a 2012 Cherokee

Pretty common car. I know there are other vehicles with battery cables that are more than this. Are the worth it? Who knows. I know if I had an insurance claim, it isn't going to be fixed with some cobbled together part from Auto Zone! I pay my insurance company to fix it like it was before the claim.

I disconnect the battery connection, once we determine the seats and windows are where we want them, and door locks, trunk release etc. are activated as needed. Disabling the battery connection, de-energizes the air bags. I do the negative, then the positive. If it is unbolted, the cable can unbend, or spring back, and make the connection again. Disconnecting both, is extra insurance. We have gone to tons of MVAs where the airbag didn't, but should have deployed. I even saw one trigger before we got the battery disconnected. Using a wrench is the preffered method. However, we don't waste time trying to track down connections, or messing with compacted( due to impact) battery compartments. Sometimes, the bolt is rounded, the terminals are squooshed into the fender, etc. If we have to, we cut them. I have never had an insurance company "yell at me".

If the car is drivable, we can reconnect an unbolted terminal.

Im going to have to agree with the Lieutenant here, better to be safe than to be sorry.

Obviously, if its a BS fender-bender, or better yet a PDAA (which my FD does NOT respond too thank god), leave it alone! Leave it up to the tow operator.

On the other hand, if theres severe damage, then by all means cut the battery. In most cases where the battery is easily accesible and there is no rush, use a wrench/socket instead of just "cutting" the cable.

But, as others have said, do not cut/disconnect the battery until you know its (power) not needed. My FD was called to an MVA not long ago in which EMS was already on-scene. We were requested by EMS who stated that there was entrapment. When we arrived, we were able to simply move the seat (power seat) back while EMS held c-spine and remove the driver without any tools.

Look, as with most things in emergency services, common sense (and safety) should always prevail.

Edited March 20, 2012 by BFD1054

[Monty 35]

I'm sure that people realize it but I'll say it anyway.

Just because you've disconnected a battery doesn't mean that an airbag will not fire. You still need to exercise caution around all airbags.

[16fire5 693]

Personally, I would much rather disconnect the power source for the "bomb in the steering wheel" so I don't get bashed in the head at a couple hundred MPH while doing my thing inside the passenger compartment.

I don't want to get hit either but disconnecting the battery does not gaurantee anything. You should be following the 5-10-20 rule if you don't want to get hit.

[Nickcv41 3]

In my department we do not cut the battery cable unless there is significant damage to the vehicle, such as the car being totaled. If there is minor damage, we will just disconnect the battery with a ratchet. No big deal, your helping out the guy who's car it is by not cutting it. We also don't cut the cable in the car until the people who are trapped (if any) are removed. You never know when you'll need to move the power seat, and how much it can assist in your extrication

[50-65 205]

Sometimes, cutting the battery cables is like some of the other stupid things we do. Such as : breaking windows for ventilation when all we have to do is open them. Cutting the roof off an otherwise repairable car for "extrication" instead of just opening the doors on the opposite side.

Of course, there are many times when the above are warrented. And besides, it's "cool".

[ajsbear 11]

Simple little tool called a Battery Terminal Puller removes the terminal from the battery faster then cutting. You can get a cheap one for $10 or a good one for $30. Then you can always reconnect if you have to. You do no damage.

[Newburgher 241]

Simple little tool called a Battery Terminal Puller removes the terminal from the battery faster then cutting. You can get a cheap one for $10 or a good one for $30. Then you can always reconnect if you have to. You do no damage.

Doesn't work for all of them, but it works when you can get good access to the TOP terminal batteries

[velcroMedic1987 330]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned at all in this thread is talk to the agency investigating the accident BEFORE you cut/disconnect the cables. There is so much electronic data stored in the vehicle these days and it might be lost if power is removed from the system. Some stores permanently but some may be ?volatile? and lost from something like cutting/removing the battery cable.

I know how much disdain there is for anything police in the fire service but this may be crucial to their investigation.

[antiquefirelt 994]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned at all in this thread is talk to the agency investigating the accident BEFORE you cut/disconnect the cables. T

I know in our case if we need to cut the power, then it needs to be done right now, end of story. If it can wait, it's likely not necessary at all. As with anything we do, you should have a specific reason for doing it, not just a blind checklist item. Sure it's easy to tell people to follow checklists, but over time this will end up biting a FD, as opposed to teaching the why part as well.

[abaduck 123]

Disconnect the Negative Terminal.

If/once you FIND the battery in these newer cars....

To which I would add, find WHICH battery?

My Mercedes has two. You cut (or disconnect) the one under the hood... and you haven't done a damn thing. That battery *only* starts the engine. The one that runs everything else lives under the driver seat...

Mike

[FFBlaser 24]

Let's remember we are patient advocates. If the patient has the ability to get out of the car and there is no "tooling around" in the car, cover the steering will with a holmatro cover and turn the f***ing car off.

[ajsbear 11]

Doesn't work for all of them, but it works when you can get good access to the TOP terminal batteries

AlSO A TOOL FOR SIDE TERMINALS