Volunteer Fire Chiefs: The Administrative Side Of Things

[x635 4,066]

DISCLAIMER: This has nothing to do with any opinion of the volunteer fire service. This is a question about the volunteer fire service. If you feel like you need to "defend" the volunteer fire service, no matter what is said, you are in the wrong thread, as there is nothing to defend against. Don't turn this into "Career vs. Volunteer", because this is not what this is about.

In career departments, usually the Chief has worked themselves up to the administrative level through numerous years and promotions to be able to accomplish most tasks, often with administrative support.

In volunteer departments, what certifications or courses do Chiefs take to learn the administrative side of things, such as budgeting, accounting, etc?

With the ever-increasing demands of a volunteer Fire Chief, and with limited elected time in office, how is a Chief supposed to be able to gain and use this knowledge? Do some departments have administrative requirements to be elegible to be a Chief, such as an Associates Degree?

Sure, a Chief can be a kick-butt IC. But he or she must be able to figure out how to fund for new equipment, project fuel costs, figure out compliance with state and national laws, implement policies, deal with staffing issues, calculate equipment maintainence costs and replacement, and all the other little things.

I know many departments have Commisioners that handle these things, but shouldn't the Chief have the same knowledge? In the past, I imagine a lot of Chiefs have been passed down the knowledge on how to do things, or worked as a team using various strength of the membership to figure it all out. But now, with the ever increasing scrutiny, this may no longer be a possiblity.

The reason behind my thought process for this is, that in my state, they offer a "Fire Chiefs Academy" and ongoing training for fire chiefs. It's a tough job, and I don't know how some career chiefs keep up. The ones I know in smaller departments put in 80 hours weeks just to keep up. I know that there are various fire service associations in the NY Metro area, but do any offer any ongoing leadership and administrative training for Chiefs?

[ex-commish 490]

Great topic. There is a class that addresses this and it is the Leadership and Administration class at the National Fire Academy in Maryland. It is a 40 hour program under the Volunteer Incentive Program. It covered budgets, administration, and basically most things you need to know to be an administrator. Not a replacement for a management or similiar degree but you get a basic understanding of managing a fire deprtment. The downside is not everyone can get down there to take the class and I am not sure if this type of training is offered in NY. Alot of what I learned as a chief and now a commissioner is simply reaching out and asking those who have been there.

"I know many departments have Commisioners that handle these things, but shouldn't the Chief have the same knowledge?"

Considering that a fire commissioner can be a lay person with no fire service background a chief could have more knowledge therefore it is imperative that the chief have some training in administrative issues.

[FFLieu 70]

The training and educational opportunities are readily available to both, and the necessary qualifications for one side are pretty much the same for the other. Whereas on the career side, you test to attain higher rank, on the volunteer side, you must have "time in grade" at a specific rank - with its specific responsibilities, qualifications, and educational credits - in order to attain higher rank. For instance, my experience has shown me that the higher the rank, the more administrative type duties there are; everything is a building block, which culminates in being the chief, if it is so desired.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Being a volunteer chief is almost a full-time job for some. When I left office, I was putting in 30 hours week doing paperwork and meeting with the town officials per week. The saving grace I had, especially during normal working hours was that my A/C was a foreman for the town and could attend meetings during the day for me.

As for training or education to handle the admin side of the job, one of the biggest advantages my department had was that all the officers were involved in the creation of the budget and attended all the budget/board of finance meetings . This way as junior officers we watched and learned what the chief did . He would tell us... you will need to do this some day, keep your mouth shut and listen. The other thing was that somewhere in the past, one chief took it to write down in a steno pad, everything you needed to do as chief with notes and suggestions, timing and a detailed process of writing po's , paying invoices and how to figure out budget increases. Right after the outgoing chief gave you his badge, this was the second thing he handed you.

Connecticut offers a real good fire officer program. We started to take this course in the mid 90's and went over a lot of material on administrative matters from how to handle HR issues to budgeting . Every chief since 97 has taken this class.

For me, the biggest advantage I had was my private employment. I was a manger for a large corporation, so I had already been thru numerous classes on budgeting, negotiating and had a purchasing background. I also had my officers attend Fred Pryor seminars on time management, how to handle difficult employees and other classes once they realized that they were helpful. Cause' once the call is over , running a FD is just like running a business , Oh it is a business, think about it.

[newsbuff 286]

The training and educational opportunities are readily available to both, and the necessary qualifications for one side are pretty much the same for the other. Whereas on the career side, you test to attain higher rank, on the volunteer side, you must have "time in grade" at a specific rank - with its specific responsibilities, qualifications, and educational credits - in order to attain higher rank. For instance, my experience has shown me that the higher the rank, the more administrative type duties there are; everything is a building block, which culminates in being the chief, if it is so desired.

But what if there is no educational requirement from the bottom up...

I know many departments where some or most of the officers have absolutely no college experience, let alone just scraping by in high school.

Edited March 15, 2012 by newsbuff

[firemoose827 324]

This is a sensitive topic for me, but one that should be discussed more often.

I have seen it too many times in my area where a young (19,20,21) firefighter is "elected" as chief of department solely based on the wrong things; they are not married and available all the time for calls and drills and meetings, they are popular and well liked, and they are totally ignorant to the work thats required to be a chief officer. When they get in office they are overwhelmed and quickly loose interest. They dont want to do the budgeting, and the politics at town/village meetings, and dealing with the media and the public...they just see the glory of the white hat, and the power that comes with it and they are blinded to everything else. The department ends up suffering and things get behind.

I WISH there was special requirements for chief officer, but near me they are limited and different from department to department. My first dept in Long Island was the perfect example of what I feel is required, they needed to be trained to the basic firefighter level (interior qualified through state training and department officer qualification at the training tower, you had to be approved by an officer before being granted interior), driver/operator of all trucks in the fleet, have rescue and haz-mat training, as well as Fire Officer I and II, ICS 100, 200, NIMS 700. You also had to have at least 8 years experience as a trained firefighter, not 8 years in the department, 8 years as an interior firefighter with annual recert through the officers at the training facility. There, you ran for 2nd lieutenant of the company you were in (engine or ladder), when elected you did a 2 year term and moved up to 1st lieutenant, then Captain. The two Captains were automatically nominated for 2nd assistant chief of department, other nominations were allowed of past captains and past chiefs. Then you did 2 year terms as 2nd, 1st assistant chiefs, then Chief. After 2 years you were aloud to run for lieutenant again or assistant chief. On fire scenes past Captains were still honored as officers (if no line or chief officers were present), and respected.

Its totally different where I am now. I have seen people who were not even trained as firefighter I get elected as line officers...My department requires 5 years in the department (or equivilant service in other departments) to be lieutenant, but the 2 Lt's are appointed by the chiefs after elections. The Captains are required to have 1 year experience as Lieutenant (or equivilant service in other dept) and firefighter I. Chiefs are required to have that and 1 year as Captain...Thats it. No officers training required and in some cases no firefighter I either...

PLEASE, someone come up with mandatory requirements for officer in the state of New York for volunteer fire departments!!!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The training and educational opportunities are readily available to both, and the necessary qualifications for one side are pretty much the same for the other. Whereas on the career side, you test to attain higher rank, on the volunteer side, you must have "time in grade" at a specific rank - with its specific responsibilities, qualifications, and educational credits - in order to attain higher rank. For instance, my experience has shown me that the higher the rank, the more administrative type duties there are; everything is a building block, which culminates in being the chief, if it is so desired.

Being available and being utilized are two different things. Its great if for say someone like you put forth the effort and "time in grade" to achieve such training, but in 2 to 3 years...what about the person behind you? There are no actual standards or regulations that requires time "experience." This is an AHJ topic and many more do not have strong requirements then actually do. Far too often on the volunteer ranks and in combo departments which is even tougher (and makes even less sense to not have professional full time management) the trend is that there are those being rushed into officer positions (which the word management gets lost in what those actually are) and something needs to give or the administrative side suffers.

I do agree the higher you go the more administrative it gets. There are policies, procedures, guides that need development or updating to stay compliant with regulations, standards and department needs. Equipment and apparatus testing requirements and standards to stay on top of. Personnel training requirements and desires etc. Sadly my experience is with department I'm part of or have been members of...this is not done timely, accurately or at all. The 1 department I was a member of that for a few years was on top of it.. the Chief was a professional deputy chief at another department. When he was gone things declined and I walked.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Being a volunteer chief is almost a full-time job for some. When I left office, I was putting in 30 hours week doing paperwork and meeting with the town officials per week. The saving grace I had, especially during normal working hours was that my A/C was a foreman for the town and could attend meetings during the day for me.

As for training or education to handle the admin side of the job, one of the biggest advantages my department had was that all the officers were involved in the creation of the budget and attended all the budget/board of finance meetings . This way as junior officers we watched and learned what the chief did . He would tell us... you will need to do this some day, keep your mouth shut and listen. The other thing was that somewhere in the past, one chief took it to write down in a steno pad, everything you needed to do as chief with notes and suggestions, timing and a detailed process of writing po's , paying invoices and how to figure out budget increases. Right after the outgoing chief gave you his badge, this was the second thing he handed you.

Connecticut offers a real good fire officer program. We started to take this course in the mid 90's and went over a lot of material on administrative matters from how to handle HR issues to budgeting . Every chief since 97 has taken this class.

For me, the biggest advantage I had was my private employment. I was a manger for a large corporation, so I had already been thru numerous classes on budgeting, negotiating and had a purchasing background. I also had my officers attend Fred Pryor seminars on time management, how to handle difficult employees and other classes once they realized that they were helpful. Cause' once the call is over , running a FD is just like running a business , Oh it is a business, think about it.

Excellent reply and shows how things can and should be done. The one question I have and its rhetorical and not really answerable..is what will happen when this is no longer sustainable? I know many departments that start like this...but then society and demographics catches up and the switch occurs and it starts with..well okay they can't make that but what can we do its all we have at this point.

At some point....someone needs to stand up and realize the things that stops progression from something that is critical to the people you serve when some of the things mentioned here happens:

1. Being a firefighter is what you do...it should not be what you are. If that's the case it will make many other areas of your life suffer. Pride is great, be proud of what you do....but get over the pride and personal control issues when personnel and management are on the decline. You may find your department is better with full time management.

2. Its not about control its about service and safety. Regulations and standards are made to keep your people safe and in many ways to give better service with training requirements...again full time management will keep on track with these things and get it done.

3. When a career chief isn't available...or leaves his position and retires..that's it...he retires. If you need ex-chiefs to fill calls...you have issues far beyond administrative. Not to mention your not teaching line officers how to handle calls and get comfortable doing so. If you can't trust them because they're inexperienced...you just show another glaring issues for your department. I see this a lot in combo departments and mentioned often "we don't want them (professional staff) to get control" . Here's a newflash..get over yourself. IF you hate paid staff so much why remain in a combo department?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If you've been in a few years you will most likely see good officers and bad. Pick one of the better ones to learn from. The good officers will have no problem sharing their wisdom with you.

Reading is not high on alot of peoples lists of things to do but 2 great books to read, 1 old, 1 new....."Effective Company Command" by James O Page, out of print but you can find a copy on ebay im sure. The other newer book "From Buddy To Boss" by Chase Sargent. These 2 books cover just about everything you should know.

Subscribe to the various fire service magazines. Fire Chief magazine is a good mag for administrative topics.

Check out classes in FDIC or Firehouse expo...there are usually some good admin classes given.

But no matter how many classes you take or books you read nothing will fully prepare you for some of the stuff that will come your way. I have learned that the last few years.

Edited March 15, 2012 by spin_the_wheel

[TRUCK6018 50]

I know many departments have Commisioners that handle these things, but shouldn't the Chief have the same knowledge?

Who's to say the commissioners in any given fire district will have the knowledge to properly devise and execute a budget? After all, there are no educational requirements for anyone to run for commissioner.

Edited March 15, 2012 by TRUCK6018

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

This is a sensitive topic for me, but one that should be discussed more often.

I have seen it too many times in my area where a young (19,20,21) firefighter is "elected" as chief of department solely based on the wrong things; they are not married and available all the time for calls and drills and meetings, they are popular and well liked, and they are totally ignorant to the work thats required to be a chief officer. When they get in office they are overwhelmed and quickly loose interest. They dont want to do the budgeting, and the politics at town/village meetings, and dealing with the media and the public...they just see the glory of the white hat, and the power that comes with it and they are blinded to everything else. The department ends up suffering and things get behind.

I WISH there was special requirements for chief officer, but near me they are limited and different from department to department. My first dept in Long Island was the perfect example of what I feel is required, they needed to be trained to the basic firefighter level (interior qualified through state training and department officer qualification at the training tower, you had to be approved by an officer before being granted interior), driver/operator of all trucks in the fleet, have rescue and haz-mat training, as well as Fire Officer I and II, ICS 100, 200, NIMS 700. You also had to have at least 8 years experience as a trained firefighter, not 8 years in the department, 8 years as an interior firefighter with annual recert through the officers at the training facility. There, you ran for 2nd lieutenant of the company you were in (engine or ladder), when elected you did a 2 year term and moved up to 1st lieutenant, then Captain. The two Captains were automatically nominated for 2nd assistant chief of department, other nominations were allowed of past captains and past chiefs. Then you did 2 year terms as 2nd, 1st assistant chiefs, then Chief. After 2 years you were aloud to run for lieutenant again or assistant chief. On fire scenes past Captains were still honored as officers (if no line or chief officers were present), and respected.

Its totally different where I am now. I have seen people who were not even trained as firefighter I get elected as line officers...My department requires 5 years in the department (or equivilant service in other departments) to be lieutenant, but the 2 Lt's are appointed by the chiefs after elections. The Captains are required to have 1 year experience as Lieutenant (or equivilant service in other dept) and firefighter I. Chiefs are required to have that and 1 year as Captain...Thats it. No officers training required and in some cases no firefighter I either...

PLEASE, someone come up with mandatory requirements for officer in the state of New York for volunteer fire departments!!!!!

Thank you chief elect, I'll have a bud !

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

PLEASE, someone come up with mandatory requirements for officer in the state of New York for volunteer fire departments!!!!!

You can thank FASNY for not having them... Remember, they're always looking out for our best interests!

[Atv300 69]

Why can't a department come up with the standard we really have to wait until ny says its ok. I believe the officers coming up should be the one's making a change just like our four fathers. We the next generation are the one's who need to push for the change starting in your own department if the local Changes cannot stick how will the global ones stick look at OSHA still to this day departments do not comply with the minimum. You get a majority believeing in the same ideas eventually the rest will fallow just at this stage of the game this is a minority thought.

[newsbuff 286]

Why can't a department come up with the standard we really have to wait until ny says its ok. I believe the officers coming up should be the one's making a change just like our four fathers. We the next generation are the one's who need to push for the change starting in your own department if the local Changes cannot stick how will the global ones stick look at OSHA still to this day departments do not comply with the minimum. You get a majority believeing in the same ideas eventually the rest will fallow just at this stage of the game this is a minority thought.

Go stand up in front of your entire company, old timers and all, and just tell them that your gonna change something that has been around for as long as the department. Yes, it makes sense to us young guys(yourself included), and our generation, but to them, all we are is know-it-all kids that are trying to change everything.

200 years of tradition unchanged by progress.....

[Atv300 69]

But that's the point there still on the way out you think bunker pants were accepted right away it takes time nothing will change over night.but with the right tatics of training the fallowing generations to come the ideas today will be practice of tomorrow and there will be new ideas that US as oldtimers will be against but will change too.the only way to make change is to keep pushing no matter the obstical may have to tread light but you can still push forward.