Fire Truck trips not just Joyrides

[x635 4,066]

Interesting. I like the idea of having to certify on every piece the driver will operate. Also proactive to let the community know ahead of time.

Fire Truck trips not just Joyrides

Written by Dick Broom Wednesday, March 14, 2012 at 9:12 am

MOUNT DESERT — The town’s seven fire trucks are going to be out on the roads a lot more than usual over the next few weeks.

A labor law passed by the state Legislature last year requires that all paid and volunteer firefighters take a road test to be certified to drive every piece of apparatus that they might be called on to operate. The law went into effect last March, but fire departments were given a year to comply.

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[dwcfireman 656]

It's not a bad idea. My hometown FD required this, granted we only had 5 rigs. It definitely helps keep your skills up all around.

[x129K 1,393]

WOw....I thought every department did this already??

[antiquefirelt 994]

This is a little over the top as it requires that every member that "might" be called on to drive any apparatus be road tested on every apparatus. So if you area an assigned operator or could be assigned to drive in your company or through swaps, trades or fill ins, you have to be tested on every apparatus. For the Portland FD, this means upwards of 200 personnel will have to road test on every piece?

I'm not arguing against making drivers test out on apparatus and be better drivers, but the DOL takes a hard line on things like this but can't help with things that really effect firefighter safety such as minimum staffing.

The reference in the article about "Joyriding" likely comes from the Auburn Maine FD (small career FD) one of who's city councilor rode around following their apparatus "joyriding". Turns out he thought every time they were on the road without lights and sirens, it was a joyride, and made a video and a news story about it.

I'd be happier jumping through all their hoops if they'd help us secure the proper staffing to make the fireground safer, but that's just not a politically viable position for them.

Edited March 14, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[pauloghia 5]

I don't know how it works in NY but I'll explain how we've done it in KY where I've served. First on the department I worked for, our largest rig was a Aerial 1, a Pierce Arrow quint with 105 foot ladder. Anyone certified on this piece was automatically certified on Engine 1, a crew cab Freightliner/Pierce, our crew cab Ford F-Series rescue and the staff vehicles. If you certified on Engine 1, you were certified for everything except the ladder and so on with the other vehicles, according to size. The operators for Engine 150, a Ford C/Jaco had to specially certify on it, because it was a manual shift. Being certified on Aerial 1 didn't mean you were able to operate Engine 150, but being certified on Engine 150 allowed you to be certified to operate Engine 1. I was certified on Engine 1, so I was able to be an operater for any vehicle, except the ladder and the old Ford.

On my volunteer department, everyone was required to certify on our first piece, a crew cab Freightliner/American LaFrance. Certifying on the ALF didn't allow you to operate our second piece, a 1962 Pirsch. Certifying with that old Pirsch on the other hand allowed you to operate the ALF without question. The thought was if you could handle a tank, you can handle a new LaFrance. Our tankers required certification separately because one was an automatic and the other was a manual shift. I passed the ALF and the automatic tanker, then flunked the Pirsch and the manual shift tanker beyond miserably.

That's just my example from my part of the country.

[Newburgher 241]

So, by handling it this way, they certified you could what, drive the biggest rig?

How about knowing preventative maintenance procedures, tools and equipment carried, where they are carried, and how to set up and operate all tools? How about knowing capacities and limitations of each rig, OAH &OAL? How about amount and types of hosed carried, fittings, etc? Ground ladder lengths and types? Controls in the cabs, troubleshooting?

Any of this stuff seem important?

Even identical rigs can have something different, depending on what Company has it, and the neihborhoods it serves as first due.

[pauloghia 5]

So, by handling it this way, they certified you could what, drive the biggest rig?

How about knowing preventative maintenance procedures, tools and equipment carried, where they are carried, and how to set up and operate all tools? How about knowing capacities and limitations of each rig, OAH &OAL? How about amount and types of hosed carried, fittings, etc? Ground ladder lengths and types? Controls in the cabs, troubleshooting?

Any of this stuff seem important?

Even identical rigs can have something different, depending on what Company has it, and the neihborhoods it serves as first due.

Preventative maintenance procedures? Simple. My departments were in eastern Kentucky, where everyone is a mechanic.

Tools and equipment and where they're carried? We weren't FDNY with hundreds of firehouses. We had two in a five mile radius at the paid department. The volunteer house had everything under one roof and we were always able to turn out both engines and tankers together.

Knowing how to operate all tools? What do you think we did all day other than wash the trucks and look at women walking by?

Capacities and limitations? I'll put it to you like this. I had better hoped both chiefs went into a coma from the anger stroke they would have suffered had I not known the actual capacities that the engines I was pumping could handle. That was taken care of in our pump operators certification, not drivers certification.

Hoses and fittings are blurry now from both. I remember the Pierce engine and the LaFrance being equipped with two 200 foot sections of 1 3/4 inch crosslays. It's been between six to eight years since I've served with each and I can't accurately recall anymore how much hose was carried in the rear, supply or attack. All I remember now was the Pierce carrying two 1 3/4 inch hand lines, 2 1/2 inch supply and 5 inch supply. The ALF had a 2 1/2 inch line attached to a blitz nozzle, another bed of 2 1/2 inch supply and I believe a 3 inch supply line, with a chassis that was configured as a squad. The Ford had two booster lines in place of cross lays and mirrored the Pierce in the back.

Cab controls, what do you mean? Are you seriously implying I would chauffeur a rig and not know where the turn signals and parking brake are at, or not know how to adjust my mirrors? Our drivers training was more than just jumping behind the wheel and joyriding around town. We had a road course, cone course, familiarization for each vehicle, then pump operators training with each. I wasn't expected to be able to smoothly transition from a 1978 gas engine Ford/Jaco with a 750 gpm pump to a 1996 Pierce with a midship 1250 gpm pump unless I had been trained on both. Same holds true transitioning from a 1962 Pirsch with 1000 gpm pump to a 2005 ALF with midship 1250 pump. The personnel approved to operate Aerial 1 had to complete both pump and ladder operations training since it was a quint and operated as a truck.

Oh yeah I almost forgot, ground ladders on all the engines were the same, 12 foot roof ladder, 24 foot extension ladder and a 10 foot attic ladder. Aerial 1 carried 85 feet worth of ground ladders. I was assigned to the Ford, which was Engine 150, then Rescue 1, so the truck guys knew it better than I did.

Don't forget, things are done differently outside of where ever it is you're from, but it still ends up working the same in the end. On my visits back home to Staten Island and seeing a friend of mine at his north shore company, they were always interested in learning how we operated, instead of offering quick criticism without knowing the full story.

Edited April 1, 2012 by pauloghia

[Newburgher 241]

It wasn't criticism. It was disbelief that you would be automatically qualified on a Freightliner/Pierce Engine just by getting qualified on a 105' Pierce quint. 2 different animals, not to mention the other rigs you listed. If you want us to picture what you are telling us, how about finishing the picture. I re-read your post, and that is what I gather from what you are telling us.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Newburgher

[pauloghia 5]

The rigs needed additional training, however yes qualification on it meant you were qualified to drive the Pierce engine, however you still needed additional training on it. In the rural parts of the country and in Appalachia, people learn to drive vehicles much earlier than in the urban areas, so there's earlier experience brought to the table. While a 14 year old in the city relies on their parents for rides, the 14 year old here is already offloading dune buggies through the hills and driving them on the road where it's secluded and cops rarely go. At the same time when you're running two firehouses with at the most, five on duty firefighters having to rely on volunteers and four first out rigs, the lines get blurred. Does the chief take his car, or drive the quint and turn it over to a volunteer that can operate the ladder? We were tasked often with questions like that. On a night that I actually made a response on the quint which was rare, the chief almost drove the rig the 30 miles to the next town for aid himself that seventeen departments ended up turning out to, until a very skilled volunteer pulled in.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

The rigs needed additional training, however yes qualification on it meant you were qualified to drive the Pierce engine, however you still needed additional training on it. In the rural parts of the country and in Appalachia, people learn to drive vehicles much earlier than in the urban areas, so there's earlier experience brought to the table. While a 14 year old in the city relies on their parents for rides, the 14 year old here is already offloading dune buggies through the hills and driving them on the road where it's secluded and cops rarely go. At the same time when you're running two firehouses with at the most, five on duty firefighters having to rely on volunteers and four first out rigs, the lines get blurred. Does the chief take his car, or drive the quint and turn it over to a volunteer that can operate the ladder? We were tasked often with questions like that. On a night that I actually made a response on the quint which was rare, the chief almost drove the rig the 30 miles to the next town for aid himself that seventeen departments ended up turning out to, until a very skilled volunteer pulled in.

where I am from I drove a stand up milk truck at 12 years old and I live 20 miles from New York city, so what do you mean ?

[pauloghia 5]

where I am from I drove a stand up milk truck at 12 years old and I live 20 miles from New York city, so what do you mean ?

What I'm meaning is that we learn to drive early in rural America on farmland, offroading or on the road in less populated areas. I'm guessing you drove the milk truck years ago. This goes on here today. Never mind, the point is now MIA.

Edited April 2, 2012 by pauloghia

[v85 212]

This is how our department operates too. You need to be certified on every piece of apparatus that you want to drive. This includes not only the road test, but also training and tests on where the equipment is on the truck and how to operate the firematic functions (pump panel, turntable, etc)

[SECTMB 612]

I think we will find varying procedures on a dept. by dept. basis, some making sense, others not. My primary department has four companies, including the ambulance. Each company qualifies its own drivers and aside from individual engine and ladder company members also being ambulance drivers there is no cross driver training between the engine and ladder companies. This is unfortunate as my engine, with multiple qualified drivers has often passed the other station which still has apparatus in it due to lack of drivers, and they've passed our house with the engine still inside. Cross training and qualification would help solve that but God forbid a company rely on someone from another company to get their rig out.

When I joined another department, you were a probationary firefighter for a year. Regardless of my twenty some years of experience as a firefighter and line officer and that I learned to drive tractor trailers and heavy equipment before cars, probationary firefighters couldn't drive. There were numerous times I responded to the firehouse and waited and waited for a driver, sometimes no one showed.

As a driver we are responsible for vehicle checks of the normal 'checking fluid', air pressures, etc. but scheduled maintenance, depending on the item, is either by the Village's DPW or the Manufacturer's dealer. Unscheduled maintenance or problems are ours to recognize and then have handled by either of the aforementioned.

As a driver we are also responsible to know how to operate all our onboard systems; pump, compressor, generator, hurst tool. And, to know where all our tools and other appurtenances are located and their functions and uses as well. Anyone who drives any apparatus needs to know these things. Its not enough to get the truck to the scene if you can't operate it once you get there and you can't always assume someone will be there who can once you get there.

Generally speaking, if a department has multiple apparatus at multiple firehouses, given that some equipment may be individually specific to that apparatus, how hard would it be to locate the bulk of the tools, etc. in a standardized manner so that any firefighter, not just the driver, knew that the cribbing was in the right side rear compartment, etc.?

Standardization begets efficiency, efficiency begets proficiency and with increased proficiency you tend to get a better outcome.