Quint or Ladder?

[dwcfireman 656]

I'm sure this question has been beckoned before on this site, however I cannot find one. So....

Why does Westchester County not recognize a "quint" as a piece of apparatus? And why are all the quints in Westchester dubbed "ladders?"

[sfrd18 360]

I'm sure this question has been beckoned before on this site, however I cannot find one. So....

Why does Westchester County not recognize a "quint" as a piece of apparatus? And why are all the quints in Westchester dubbed "ladders?"

Good question. I believe Ardsley's ladder was deemed Quint 1, but now their new rig is classified as a Ladder Co. by the county. Maybe it's just for easier classification, i.e., they would have to re-number all the "quints" in the county as "Quint _".

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Could just be that the CAD system doesn't support the term. I know in some places where quints are labelled as engines. Bottom line is...I rarely have heard anyone ask for a "quint." Know your area and the specifics as far as names go...isn't an issue.

You could ask the same as to why and it has been for decades...where ladder towers are classified as tower ladders...if we want to talk detailed semantics. For example if you have a aerial that has a pump...its a quint. But if you have a ladder tower with a pump...its a quint..but how do you address the 2 in regards to the type of aerial device it is?

Edited March 7, 2012 by alsfirefighter

[FFPCogs 863]

Could just be that the CAD system doesn't support the term. I know in some places where quints are labelled as engines. Bottom line is...I rarely have heard anyone ask for a "quint." Know your area and the specifics as far as names go...isn't an issue.

You could ask the same as to why and it has been for decades...where ladder towers are classified as tower ladders...if we want to talk detailed semantics. For example if you have a aerial that has a pump...its a quint. But if you have a ladder tower with a pump...its a quint..but how do you address the 2 in regards to the type of aerial device it is?

On top of that technically to be fully functional as a quint it must be staffed with 2 operators...1 for the pump and 1 for the aerial along with a compliment of FFs to carry out both functions.

Edited March 7, 2012 by FFPCogs

[dwcfireman 656]

You could ask the same as to why and it has been for decades...where ladder towers are classified as tower ladders...if we want to talk detailed semantics. For example if you have a aerial that has a pump...its a quint. But if you have a ladder tower with a pump...its a quint..but how do you address the 2 in regards to the type of aerial device it is?

Interesting you brought it up this way...Where I'm from (Monroe County/Rochester area) regardless if the aerial has a bucket or not, it is called a ladder. Similarly when you add a pump to the truck, regardless of the presence of a bucket, it's called a quint. I would say this is a bit backwards from Westchester. I guess the new question that arises is if this is a local "traditional" naming of the apparatus, or if the county's dispatch system just doesn't have the term "quint" to associate a particular vehicle?

I also have the feeling that it's a mirror of the FDNY system, as I have noticed over the last 4 years that even specialty units reflect the same terminology as FDNY (i.e. Engine, Truck, Rescue, MSU, etc.).

[IzzyEng4 427]

Actually, not many fire departments that have quints call them that. Usually that term was utilized under the "Quint Concept" where departments replaced the engine and ladder truck at a station with a quint and usually another smaller piece, or if the unit was station alone by itself.

A quint in the true scene of the term means in this day and age an apparatus with a viable aerial ladder 75 to 100+ feet in length, 1000 or more gpm pump (may be as low as 750 gpm but I'm going with ISO Class A pumpers), minimum of 250 gallons of water in the tank and a minimum of 85 feet of ground ladders. A majority of what we call "quint" apparatus out there does not meet this specification. So that is the first place you need to look. A typical 75' Seagrave mean stick lacks 85 feet of ground ladders on it, any Telesquirt pumper is not a quint, ect.

So take a look at all the "quints" out there and see which fit the actual specifications for a quint. You will be surprised how many "quints" that are out their are really not! We tend to utilize the term so we know what we got coming if it is designated that way.

Edited March 7, 2012 by IzzyEng4

[x635 4,066]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing dwc.

Good question. I believe Ardsley's ladder was deemed Quint 1, but now their new rig is classified as a Ladder Co. by the county. Maybe it's just for easier classification, i.e., they would have to re-number all the "quints" in the county as "Quint _".

Ardsley Quint 1 was Ardsley Quint 1 from the day it was delivered in 1988. Elmsford operated Quint 2, and Quad 2.

It was under Pat Kelly sometime around 2002, when trying to "simplify" things, the terms "Quint", "Brush", and other valid terms were removed from the valid apparatus listings. We were told as 60 Control dispatchers to ignore any department that doesn't refer to their apparatus definitions.

I also think there was some CAD component to it to make it eaqsier for us dispatchers, but can't remember.

When my department got the letter, I really wanted to keep it Quint 1. But I suggested "Ladder 50" for some reason I can't remember at the time, and that's why that is.

Many people on this forum have debated about Quints, what they are, how they are staffed and equipped, and training issues. One big concern among career departments is using a Quint to combine an Engine and Ladder company in order to lay off firefighters.

In a majority of departments here in Texas, they call them Quints. They are not an engine. The are not a truck.And sometimes they are a Quint, but called an Engine or Truck. They are defined by the fire department's operations.

[SteveOFD 176]

From the Westchester County DES website, C.A.D. Valid Unit Descriptions indicate that the descriptors are from NFPA 1901 - Fire Apparatus Standard.

[dwcfireman 656]

Actually, not many fire departments that have quints call them that. Usually that term was utilized under the "Quint Concept" where departments replaced the engine and ladder truck at a station with a quint and usually another smaller piece, or if the unit was station alone by itself.

This I can definitely identify with this. I know firefighters with the Rochester FD, and they used the Quint/Midi system for years.

And to everybody...Thank you. All of your answers are making it a little clearer for me.

On another note...Meet my first love. Q560 from Honeoye Falls, NY (30 minutes south of Rochester). She's the last RD Murray off the line, and I've put out more fires using this beast than any other piece of apparatus.

**This is not the reason I brought up this topic. Before I moved to Westchester I was the Lieutenant on this bad@$, and it exceeds the standard for being a quint, hence being QUINT 560. I raised the question because I've never heard the term "quint" used as an apparatus designator in Westchester.

[sfrd18 360]

This I can definitely identify with this. I know firefighters with the Rochester FD, and they used the Quint/Midi system for years.

Look at St. Louis: every single one of their Engines is a Quint. However, they are called "Engines". I believe they only have 6 Aerial Ladders in their 30-Station Department. I'm not sure how they are staffed, i.e., whether or not they have one firefighter to man the pump, and one to operate the ladder. However, I heard they are not going to stay with the Quint Concept down the road.

Edited March 8, 2012 by sfrd18

[Bnechis 3,961]

Look at St. Louis: every single one of their Engines is a Quint. However, they are called "Engines". I believe they only have 6 Aerial Ladders in their 30-Station Department. However, I heard they are not going to stay with the Quint Concept down the road.

Since last year they purchased a number of engines without aerials (I saw 4 being built in May and 3 or 4 more in July) Its a fair bet to say they are moving away from it.

The new engines have the hosebeds under the water tank.

The hose bed is in he compartment labeled E 1

Sorry it is so dark. But, you can see Smeals roll out hose bed and its under the tank

I'm not sure how they are staffed, i.e., whether or not they have one firefighter to man the pump, and one to operate the ladder.

3ff & 1 Of. They do not operate both eng and ladder together. they are one or the other. When they were running total quint they would send 4 engines on a box:

1st due: engine

2nd due: truck

3rd due: engine

4th due: truck

Their ladder companies were generally downtown only

[Medic5274 45]

Since last year they purchased a number of engines without aerials (I saw 4 being built in May and 3 or 4 more in July) Its a fair bet to say they are moving away from it.

The new engines have the hosebeds under the water tank.

The hose bed is in he compartment labeled E 1

Sorry it is so dark. But, you can see Smeals roll out hose bed and its under the tank

3ff & 1 Of. They do not operate both eng and ladder together. they are one or the other. When they were running total quint they would send 4 engines on a box:

1st due: engine

2nd due: truck

3rd due: engine

4th due: truck

Their ladder companies were generally downtown only

Taking this thread in a some what different direction, what do people thing about the tank being placed hire up on the truck. Do you think this could cause a problem with the center of gravity being impacted by water movement and the height of the tank. Would this make the truck top heavy and more prone to roll over?

[FFPCogs 863]

Taking this thread in a some what different direction, what do people thing about the tank being placed hire up on the truck. Do you think this could cause a problem with the center of gravity being impacted by water movement and the height of the tank. Would this make the truck top heavy and more prone to roll over?

Possibily, but of more importance to me is how will the increased height impact the ability of crews to delpoy and repack hose? I for one don't think guys should be climbing ladders or steps to deploy supply or attack lines if at all possible. Safety and just plain workload dictate that the lower to the ground the hosebed the safer and easier operations from it will be. But hey I'm a dinosaur that doesn't believe in quints anyway.

Cogs

[robert benz 344]

Possibily, but of more importance to me is how will the increased height impact the ability of crews to delpoy and repack hose? I for one don't think guys should be climbing ladders or steps to deploy supply or attack lines if at all possible. Safety and just plain workload dictate that the lower to the ground the hosebed the safer and easier operations from it will be. But hey I'm a dinosaur that doesn't believe in quints anyway.

Cogs

from looking at the photo the hosebed is waist high

[dwcfireman 656]

Possibily, but of more importance to me is how will the increased height impact the ability of crews to delpoy and repack hose? I for one don't think guys should be climbing ladders or steps to deploy supply or attack lines if at all possible. Safety and just plain workload dictate that the lower to the ground the hosebed the safer and easier operations from it will be. But hey I'm a dinosaur that doesn't believe in quints anyway.

Cogs

With the quints that I've worked on over the years I have found that deploying hose has never really bee a problem. The mattydales tend to be at the same average height as most engines, and the hose bed(s) sometimes lower to the ground. It's always been repacking the hose that's been the problem, which usually involves raising the ladder or rotating the ladder around.

As for operational use, I can understand why you don't believe in quints. I've found that unless you have a concise plan or SOP for the quint, it just becomes another piece of apparatus clogging the scene. My hometown department (see the yellow truck above) came up with a plan where the quint was first due in the village where the streets are narrow, and would act as the first due engine. Then the actual first due engine would come in and act as the second due engine (water supply) the truck company. This was and still is the SOP there. I know it's extremely backwards from what many people are used to, but it was the only way to get an engine and ladder in front of some of the houses. It worked for my hometown, but that still doesn't mean it works for everyone. I do agree that sometimes the old way works the best (if it ain't broke, don't fix it!).

[FireMedic049 597]

Taking this thread in a some what different direction, what do people thing about the tank being placed hire up on the truck. Do you think this could cause a problem with the center of gravity being impacted by water movement and the height of the tank. Would this make the truck top heavy and more prone to roll over?

From what I read on another forum several months ago (from someone associated with St. Louis FD) while their new engines were still in production, the swapping of the tank and hosebed positions wasn't an issue for those matters. It was stated that the weight of the water carried was pretty much equal to the weight of the hose carried and the slide out hosebed, resulting in essentially no change in the center of gravity.

[FFPCogs 863]

from looking at the photo the hosebed is waist high

My mistake thanks

[PCC030664 2]

Down here in FL they are called by all the different titles. On my former department, the Pierce with the 65 ft. "skyboom" was designated "Ladder" although it is not what one would consider a true ladder truck. The supply hosebed was limited due to the aerial device and the ground ladders were mounted so high on the side they were very difficult to remove. The Pierce with the 85 ft. tower/platform was designated "Truck" and had a pump, tank, attack and supply hoselines as well as the assortment of larger ground ladders. These two are on the same cab/chassis (Dash?)and only around two years apart. The "Ladder" was a single rear axle while the "Truck" had dual and the all steer feature. The other two suppression apparatus,Pierce rescue pumpers without any aerial capabilities, wore the "Engine" label.

I believe Miami-Dade Fire Rescue calls their 65 footers "Aerial" while anything higher is either Ladder or Platform, regardless of the presence of a pump/tank.

Phil

[Guest alsfirefighter]

From the Westchester County DES website, C.A.D. Valid Unit Descriptions indicate that the descriptors are from NFPA 1901 - Fire Apparatus Standard.

Still not 100% accurate however...there is not one "ladder tower" in the county by descriptor..despite there being several of them.

[x635 4,066]

I don't know if it was mentioned here, but thinking about it it's kind of ridiculous that there is no Quint designation but you can call an Engine a Rescue.