Do Thermal Imaging Cameras Hurt Us?

[x635 4,066]

I'm just thinking about Thermal Imaging Cameras. While they are a great tool, does anyone feel that they take a bit from a firefighter's knowledge development?

I know some departments use it to check for extension, especially with electrical and kitchen fires. And I'm willing to bet some departments rely exclusively on them.

But does that take away from our abilities to check for extension using knowledge, our hands, eyes, and ears? Are we able to complete a basic search with a victim without depeneding on this technology.

I do think that the TIC is a great,required tool for all fire departments. It saves damage from having to "open up". However, it should never be relied upon exclusively, especially with newer firefighters.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Any tool in the wrong hands can be detrimental. TIC can be true lifesavers and minimize damages while enhancing firefighter safety immensely, as long as we like any other technology do not rely on it solely.

[99subi 121]

I think you answerd this one yourself. "I do think that the TIC is a great,required tool for all fire departments. It saves damage from having to "open up". However, it should never be relied upon exclusively, especially with newer firefighters"

With that said, the basics on searching and firefighting as a whole for that matter should never be forgotten and need to be drilled often,even for the most senoir members out there.

Edited February 16, 2012 by 99subi

[LFD34 12]

Thermal imaging cameras are a great tool. However they are a tool. They don't replace the firefighter or the inherhent knowledge brought by a person. Any tool misused will create undesirable results.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The TIC can be one of the best tools you can have with you...or one of the most dangerous....how that is decided is by who it is hanging off of. I rely on it more for safety and an adjunct to search..then to limit damage by "opening up." If you don't know what you're looking at when deciding to open up...it can cause just as much damage by using your other senses along with it.

[Spartan052 43]

as a probie iam taught to stay low in a fire situtaion but ive seen that people in the same situation stand up while using the thermal imaging camera arent the same hazards there with and without the camera

[99subi 121]

as a probie iam taught to stay low in a fire situtaion but ive seen that people in the same situation stand up while using the thermal imaging camera arent the same hazards there with and without the camera

Of course the hazards are the same, but the situation will dictate the way you work.if you have high heat,smoke banked low you be on all 4's. If not you can probably stand,again the situation will dictate. Being taught to stay low as a probie make great sense though. Its easy to walk through a building, but when you need to be down, you have to kow how to do it,best way to go about that is to bang it in your head early.

just my .2 cents.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I know of one time that a TIC saved me from myself. My crew responded to an odor of smoke 4-5 houses from the firehouse early in the morning (3-4 am). Being one of the first chilly nights of the fall the outside air was full of wood smoke and after a lengthy investigation for the cause of the odor in the duplex we were called to, I was ready to write it off as chimney smoke that had got inside. This after using the TIC, our hands and noses throughout the two apartments. Being that I hate to leave without a definitive answer, we had spent over a half an hour maybe 45 minutes in two small units detecting a faint odor of wood smoke, which was actually stronger outside. Just before clearing I asked the Lt. to perform one more sweep of the units with the TIC and he found a white spot at the ceiling! Upon opening up, we found a smoldering area of wood in the blown in insulation, quickly addressed with a can and shutting power of the light circuit that had a bad section of metal cased wire. We concluded that the smoldering had been taking place for quite some time, but had originally not heated the wall covering enough to be visible to the TIC, luckily enough it did present itself before we left. Had we not had the TIC, I'm sure we'd have returned to quarters only to have been called back for the attic on fire.

We have had great success using the TIC to minimize damage and perform a more surgical overhaul in cases. This takes having high confidence in the camera through constant use, call after call, so you learn how to interpret what you're seeing. Coupled with utilizing sense of smell, touch and ensuring a strong building construction knowledge base serves us well.

Edited February 16, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Like someone posted above, TIC's are great but are still a tool. Any tool in the wrong hands can be misused and useless. Thermal imaging cameras are great for locating people in wooded areas when ejected from vehicles. Besides human sight, fire departments don't have any other tools readily available.

[nicoca427 3]

I would agree that it's important for newer FF's to get the experience of checking for extensions without relying on a TIC... however the technology does exist, so why not use it?

[OnTheWheel 43]

I think all technology "hurts" in a certain sense because we come to rely on it and forget the basics. It's important to remember basic training without tools so when the batteries die on something you still can perform your job, no matter what field it's in.

[x635 4,066]

Another question-are there situations where you need to "open up" despite what the thermal imager says?

[helicopper 1,050]

I'm just thinking about Thermal Imaging Cameras. While they are a great tool, does anyone feel that they take a bit from a firefighter's knowledge development?

I know some departments use it to check for extension, especially with electrical and kitchen fires. And I'm willing to bet some departments rely exclusively on them.

But does that take away from our abilities to check for extension using knowledge, our hands, eyes, and ears? Are we able to complete a basic search with a victim without depeneding on this technology.

I do think that the TIC is a great,required tool for all fire departments. It saves damage from having to "open up". However, it should never be relied upon exclusively, especially with newer firefighters.

I obviously can't speak from the fire perspective regarding TIC's but I do use one on a daily basis so I can share some general perspectives... Like any other tool or technology, the TIC has it's place and it has it's limitations. Relying exclusively on any single tool or technique has it's problems but the TIC is probably one tool that isn't used often enough. It should be used all the time so the user becomes proficient in its use and in the interpretation of what it is telling you. If you only break it out at a working fire, it can be misleading because you're always looking at a super heated environment (it's like me looking at everything at noon when the sun is high and everything is warmed by solar radiation).

The input from the TIC should be viewed with the totality of the circumstances and used to draw an informed conclusion from all the sources - visual inspection, touch, etc.

Another question-are there situations where you need to "open up" despite what the thermal imager says?

If other signs suggest that it's appropriate I guess so. The only thing a TIC does is measure heat. If a wall is well insulated or another heat source (hot water pipe, ducting, etc.) is or can be masking the heat from a smoldering fire, you probably do have to open up.

Again, go by the totality of the circumstances and your experience. Not a single tool or observation.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Another question-are there situations where you need to "open up" despite what the thermal imager says?

Thermal imagining cameras can not see past some materials so you may need to open up to get beyond certain layers. This happens around fireplaces sometimes.

[16fire5 693]

The TIC is one of the best improvemnts the fire service has seen in the last 30 years. The problem comes in if it is just plain thrown on the rig and training is not done. Now as we become accoustomed to using it we run the danger of relying on it.

For me the best use of the TIC is locating the fire. When confronted with a zero visibility situation and the need to locate the fire the TIC is phenomonal. In the past members relied on things like listening and feeling heat on their ears and blind searching which all had inherent flaws. The TIC allows you to find the fire faster and allows you to get water on the fire faster and that makes everything better. Now the TIC is very useful at assisting with the primary search but the reason I rank finding the fire higher is this is your number one priority is to locate the fire. Once you locate the fire you know the life hazard. Also locating the fire makes us safer.

The TIC is also a supervisory tool. It allows you to keep track of your crew. Compare doing a large area search with tag lines compared to the Officer guided TIC search I think the TIC guided search is acutually safer.

As for using the TIC to guide overhaul I think this is the least benifical use of the camera. After a decent fire almost everything is white on the camera. The fire areas should still be opened up based on standard practices. And opening up should continue until clean bays are found. This is not to say that you should not use the TIC I always do but regardless of what it shows there are areas that I will open anyway.

As for training sometimmes people on here are looking for some outside trainers to come in and on this topic I would reccomend Safe IR. They are excellent instructors and are the experts on the topic.

[wraftery 1,275]

Thermal imagining cameras can not see past some materials so you may need to open up to get beyond certain layers. This happens around fireplaces sometimes.

Thermal image cameras cannot see through ANY materials. It the heat that must pass through the material and get to the surface that is being read by the TIC. The TIC only sees differences in temperature, however minute, and that's all.

Try this: Spread your hand and hold it on a piece of glass like a car window for about 30 seconds then remove your hand. Look at the spot where your hand was with the TIC. You will see the image of your hand. That's because your hand heated the glass and the glass has not cooled. The TIC is seeing leftover heat....nothing else.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Thermal image cameras cannot see through ANY materials. It the heat that must pass through the material and get to the surface that is being read by the TIC. The TIC only sees differences in temperature, however minute, and that's all.

Try this: Spread your hand and hold it on a piece of glass like a car window for about 30 seconds then remove your hand. Look at the spot where your hand was with the TIC. You will see the image of your hand. That's because your hand heated the glass and the glass has not cooled. The TIC is seeing leftover heat....nothing else.

Don't even have to go that far...stand in front of the glass and move around until you see your "reflection" in the camera.

[helicopper 1,050]

Thermal image cameras cannot see through ANY materials. It the heat that must pass through the material and get to the surface that is being read by the TIC. The TIC only sees differences in temperature, however minute, and that's all.

Try this: Spread your hand and hold it on a piece of glass like a car window for about 30 seconds then remove your hand. Look at the spot where your hand was with the TIC. You will see the image of your hand. That's because your hand heated the glass and the glass has not cooled. The TIC is seeing leftover heat....nothing else.

Thanks for beating me to the punch. So many people misunderstand the technology and even teach it wrong or testify about it wrong.

If you do the glass experiment and come back 15 minutes later you may still see the faint outline as the glass continues to cool. The capabilities of the imager are nothing short of amazing. We do that with tire marks and vehicle locations all the time.

Don't even have to go that far...stand in front of the glass and move around until you see your "reflection" in the camera.

But that's a reflection just like any other camera. If the operator isn't properly trained and lacks experience, he may not even recognize that's what it is.

Train often!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Thanks for beating me to the punch. So many people misunderstand the technology and even teach it wrong or testify about it wrong.

If you do the glass experiment and come back 15 minutes later you may still see the faint outline as the glass continues to cool. The capabilities of the imager are nothing short of amazing. We do that with tire marks and vehicle locations all the time.

But that's a reflection just like any other camera. If the operator isn't properly trained and lacks experience, he may not even recognize that's what it is.

Train often!

Can't stress it enough brother. When a department I'm part of first got camera's I offered to do department training on them being I had come from 2 separate departments that had them for some time and I had taken formal training on them. I was told basically "we'll be ok...its pretty much just point and shoot." I can't tell you how many times I've seen them used wrongly or listen to those verbalizing the mis-interpretation of information they were seeing. I equate it to the first time I was given NVG's in the service and it took time with constant training to understand what you were seeing...what its limitations were for and then on top of it how to accurately shoot with them on. Not to mention the importance of reverting to traditional night operations when they failed.

[helicopper 1,050]

Can't stress it enough brother. When a department I'm part of first got camera's I offered to do department training on them being I had come from 2 separate departments that had them for some time and I had taken formal training on them. I was told basically "we'll be ok...its pretty much just point and shoot." I can't tell you how many times I've seen them used wrongly or listen to those verbalizing the mis-interpretation of information they were seeing. I equate it to the first time I was given NVG's in the service and it took time with constant training to understand what you were seeing...what its limitations were for and then on top of it how to accurately shoot with them on. Not to mention the importance of reverting to traditional night operations when they failed.

Amen to that! I live with restrictions placed upon us because some bozo testified before the US Supreme Court incorrectly about the technology resulting in a sweeping, radical change in precedent for law enforcement use of thermal imagers. To this day, the case law stands - even though most everyone knows it's wrong - because nobody has had the temerity to bring a new case forward that would set the record straight. [/sigh]

In the right hands, the TIC will be a great resource. In the wrong hands it will just be a waste of battery power.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

the case law stands

Is the case you are referring to Kyllo Vs. United States?

some bozo testified before the US Supreme Court

Who is this bozo and what did he say?

[helicopper 1,050]

Is the case you are referring to Kyllo Vs. United States?

Who is this bozo and what did he say?

It is indeed. If you read Kyllo, and the lower court decisions that got it to the Supreme Court, you'll find that people testifed that thermal imagers "see through walls into the homes of those they're aimed at". It was considered an egregious intrusion and violation of the 4th amendment even though, as wraftery so aptly pointed out, TIC's don't see through anything!

[wraftery 1,275]

We used a TIC to collect a Police Officer's shell casings in big piles of leaves along the road. He had shot a wounded deer to put it out of its misery after it was hit by a car. Yes, I said casings. He missed 4 times from a range of 6ft. He was just new and nervous. It was the first time in his life that he was going to use his weapon to kill something.

My job was to keep the firefighters from talking the cop into giving them his gun.

[Fireman488 57]

There is a good two part article on Thermal Imaging in the two most recent Firehouse magazines.

Recently we had an MVA with one ejection (some distance from the vehicle). The troopers on the scene thought there may be additional ejected patients.

We checked the seats of the vehicle with the TIC, only finding heat in the driver's seat. We still conducted a perimeter search, but felt confident in leaving the scene that no one else was involved.

[x129K 1,393]

Another question-are there situations where you need to "open up" despite what the thermal imager says?

I say yes...case in point - we responded to a kitchen fire - fire on the stove, got into the cabinet above, held with a can, then knocked down with a line...heavy smoke throughout (very greasy Indian meal)...I went in with a hook and the TIC..checked the walls - plaster and lathe..I had ONE bay that was significantly lighter than the rest with a very small hole in the wall...I wanted to open it up but was told no.."plaster and lathe...it holds the heat longer!" no kidding...thanks...that was one case that sticks out that I REALLY wanted to have my eyes on the proof..not the TOC's...

Thanks for beating me to the punch. So many people misunderstand the technology and even teach it wrong or testify about it wrong. If you do the glass experiment and come back 15 minutes later you may still see the faint outline as the glass continues to cool. The capabilities of the imager are nothing short of amazing. We do that with tire marks and vehicle locations all the time.But that's a reflection just like any other camera. If the operator isn't properly trained and lacks experience, he may not even recognize that's what it is. Train often!

Funny story about reflections...my very good freind and cousin were the line at a fire in a bar...they made entry...saw the glow and proceeded to open the line up...after a while they realized the glow wasnt darkening down and it was getting hotter behind them...they soun around and found heavy fore from the kitchen area which they knocked down quickly...the first glow they saw was the REFLECTION of the fire in the mirrored wall behind the bar!

There is a good two part article on Thermal Imaging in the two most recent Firehouse magazines.Recently we had an MVA with one ejection (some distance from the vehicle). The troopers on the scene thought there may be additional ejected patients.We checked the seats of the vehicle with the TIC, only finding heat in the driver's seat. We still conducted a perimeter search, but felt confident in leaving the scene that no one else was involved.

The TIC is a good tool to do an area search at night with at MVA's where you cant find the driver or occupants!

Here is a link to a fire a few years ago where I feel, taking a few seconds to do a quick look with a TIC saved myself and another fireman..

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/29783-millbrooks-structure-fire-fatal-11709/page__p__167209__hl__millbrook__fromsearch__1#entry167209

Edited March 6, 2012 by x129K

[antiquefirelt 994]

I say yes...case in point - we responded to a kitchen fire - fire on the stove..I had ONE bay that was significantly lighter than the rest with a very small hole in the wall...I wanted to open it up but was told no.."plaster and lathe...it holds the heat longer!"

It would appear to me the issue noted above was not due to the TIC, but whoever said not to open when faced with "proof" that one bay was hotter than the others. Of course in nothing resulted from the decision (no "rekindle") it merely reinforces a potentially poor choice.

[x129K 1,393]

NOt gonna lie...I was "hoping".....

[voltage1256 42]

I'm sure if you thow it at someones head it will hurt

[Spartan052 43]

Of course the hazards are the same, but the situation will dictate the way you work.if you have high heat,smoke banked low you be on all 4's. If not you can probably stand,again the situation will dictate. Being taught to stay low as a probie make great sense though. Its easy to walk through a building, but when you need to be down, you have to kow how to do it,best way to go about that is to bang it in your head early.

just my .2 cents.

true but if there is heat and smoke some firefighters using the TIC still stand up in that hazardous envionment i reacall reading an artical about this issue in a magazine