Shop fire sets smoldering feud over fire departments ablaze

[Geppetto 31]

Shop fire sets smoldering feud over fire departments ablaze

Star Tribune

Richard Meryhew

February 15, 2012

http://www.startribune.com/local/139334398.html

[Bnechis 3,961]

Shop fire sets smoldering feud over fire departments ablaze

Star Tribune

Richard Meryhew

February 15, 2012

http://www.startribune.com/local/139334398.html

That could never happen here...because we .......... (fill in the blank)

[wraftery 1,275]

A quote from the article:

Holthaus says he did the best he could under the circumstances. "I didn't feel like I had the time to weigh options," he said, adding that accusations that he deliberately snubbed Richmond are "a joke."

"I did what was at the tip of my tongue," he said. "I did what I thought was best"

What a revelation. NO TIME TO WEIGH ALL THE OPTIONS.

Maybe we should think about options like these long before the fire. It's called preplanning.

Edited February 16, 2012 by wraftery

[JFLYNN 681]

That could never happen here...because we .......... (fill in the blank)

...because we have the local media fooled and they would never risk running a story which is critical of volunteers...?

[ladder55 26]

JFLYNN its funny that the word volunteer comes out here. You and the media can be as critical of volunteers as you want but there are career departments that have called other career departments from far far away instead of the volunteers next door.

[FFPCogs 863]

There are those who believe career fire protection is the only "real" or effective fire protection, just as there are those who feel volunteers offer benefits in terms of cost saving and community involvement while offering the same quailty of service. As with everything each are entitled to their own views and are free to express them, but blanket statements are always wrong. Some dept.s are well run, well organized, professional and this ensures that they get the job done to the benefit of their communities, and some aren't and don't....and as much as many may want to dispute it this fact cuts right across the career/volunteer line. Paychecks do NOT guarantee anything other than people fighting fires as a job, just as volunteerism does not guarantee anything other than people having an association with a fire dept. In this case it seems that the cost to service ratio is way out of whack, but that in and of itself should not be an indictment of volunteer firefighting. Each department must be viewed independently to determine their value to those they serve and only those served have the right decide if their dept is indeed valuable to them.

Cogs

[Guest truck12345]

in upstate we tried ma with some vollie depts in the area and after we seen who we were getting and the response and our saftey concerns our dept. decided to work on a ma plan with other area career depts and it has worked out well.

[99subi 121]

Maybe we should think about options like these long before the fire. It's called preplanning.

Volunteer and preplanning... hah,that'll be the day,then again it might happen if they offer free food with the preplan excercise ...

flame away

[ladder55 26]

Volunteer and preplanning... hah,that'll be the day,then again it might happen if they offer free food with the preplan excercise ...

flame away

99subi it says your a volunteer in Westchester, so per your statement is it safe to assume that you only volunteer for perks? Do you only go to drills, meetings etc for food or are you just making another assumption of why volunteers do it?

[Alwaysinheat 26]

Sounds very familar

[firemoose827 324]

Volunteer and preplanning... hah,that'll be the day,then again it might happen if they offer free food with the preplan excercise ...

flame away

Ahh, another young inexperienced guy who only thinks inside Westchester County, as if thats the only county there is...Think outside the box before you make blanket statements like that.

I have been involved in pre-plans in every volunteer department I belonged to, even my current one who only has residential and rural areas, we pre-planned our only two sites in our area including a repair garage and an under ground natural gas pipeline pumping facility. As a Captain, I take our crews out on drill nights in the rescue and we drive to a house, and I have them tell me everything about it including construction type, exposure issues, water supplies in the area and other details. This is always a big hit on drill nights and it works.

Not every department is the same, each one is different and has their own strengths and weaknesses.

[ffp20 14]

in upstate we tried ma with some vollie depts in the area and after we seen who we were getting and the response and our saftey concerns our dept. decided to work on a ma plan with other area career depts and it has worked out well.

in our case it also was apparent that even though a couple of volunteer depts were closer, by the time they turned out and responded, the more distant career dept was in the city working.

[ffp20 14]

in upstate we tried ma with some vollie depts in the area and after we seen who we were getting and the response and our saftey concerns our dept. decided to work on a ma plan with other area career depts and it has worked out well.

It also didnt help when one of the neighboring dept routinely would send us an apparatus with only one or NO ff's capable of interior operations (daytime situation)

[99subi 121]

99subi it says your a volunteer in Westchester, so per your statement is it safe to assume that you only volunteer for perks? Do you only go to drills, meetings etc for food or are you just making another assumption of why volunteers do it?

I vol. for the community and the experience. What "perks" are you talking about?The last meeting i went to for free food was... never. I go to drills, thats it. None of the dance bs or any of that.To me its a job, not a social gathering.

[bigrig77 95]

I vol. for the community and the experience. What "perks" are you talking about?The last meeting i went to for free food was... never. I go to drills, thats it. None of the dance bs or any of that.To me its a job, not a social gathering.

Spoken like a true Firemen. This is not a game. I am sure the dances and dinners and pancake breakfasts are great but we are here to protect the community. I wish you good luck and keep on learning.

[FFPCogs 863]

I vol. for the community and the experience. What "perks" are you talking about?The last meeting i went to for free food was... never. I go to drills, thats it. None of the dance bs or any of that.To me its a job, not a social gathering.

Spoken like a true Firemen. This is not a game. I am sure the dances and dinners and pancake breakfasts are great but we are here to protect the community. I wish you good luck and keep on learning.

Even career FFs have a social aspect to their involvement in the fire service. Union sponsored Christmas and retirement parties, golf outings, conventions and yes even dances, so let's not get caught up pointing fingers. Social life is a part of the brotherhood we as firefighters...all of us...share, in fact it is what helps that brotherhood flourish. It is when the social takes precedence over operations that problems arise and in all fairness that problem is far more prevalent, but by no means exclusive, to the volunteer sector. As has been said already there are "good" and "bad" FDs on both sides of the divide and one bad apple shouldn't and doesn't spoil the bunch...no matter what bunch, career or vollie, we're talking about. We all need to put the paintbrushes and blankets away and steer clear of generalizations that lump groups together when talking FDs. Better to deal with the specifics for individual departments or districts in relation to their performance and what impact that performance has in the community or region. Be an FD career or volunteer there is no one size fits all that applies across the board in the fire service, especially the fire service here in the Northeast.

I respect all FFs, departments and organizations that represent them until such time as I have reason not to, I would simply ask to be given that same respect in return until I or my department give reason to lose it.

Cogs

Edited February 16, 2012 by FFPCogs

[M' Ave 1,466]

...how quickly a thread with the chance for some worthwhile criticism is turning into the same old bu!!sh!t bash fest. Let's leave the d%&k measuring out of this and discuss (honestly) the fact that this article highlights a huge f-up and we as a group need to exam it. Why? Because a lot of the things that happened can easily (an probably have) happen in Westchester. The role of politics in mutual aid is a real issue in this county. As are variations in a departments training standards, SOP's, experience level, manpower and equipment compliment. Here is a simple fact; there are areas all over Westchester where two neighbors, sitting on a different sides of a political boundary, are only separated by a couple dozen feet yet their fire protection quality is dramatically different.

This topic and the issues it raises brings a word to mind...lean closer.....consolidation

Edited February 16, 2012 by M' Ave

[BIGRED1 71]

Even career FFs have a social aspect to their involvement in the fire service. Union sponsored Christmas and retirement parties, golf outings, conventions and yes even dances, so let's not get caught up pointing fingers. Social life is a part of the brotherhood we as firefighters...all of us...share, in fact it is what helps that brotherhood flourish. It is when the social takes precedence over operations that problems arise and in all fairness that problem is far more prevalent, but by no means exclusive, to the volunteer sector. As has been said already there are "good" and "bad" FDs on both sides of the divide and one bad apple shouldn't and doesn't spoil the bunch...no matter what bunch, career or vollie, we're talking about. We all need to put the paintbrushes and blankets away and steer clear of generalizations that lump groups together when talking FDs. Better to deal with the specifics for individual departments or districts in relation to their performance and what impact that performance has in the community or region. Be an FD career or volunteer there is no one size fits all that applies across the board in the fire service, especially the fire service here in the Northeast.

I respect all FFs, departments and organizations that represent them until such time as I have reason not to, I would simply ask to be given that same respect in return until I or my department give reason to lose it.

Cogs

I agree. Think what he meant was that firefighting comes first, then all the other things. We are Brothers on the Line first and foremost. A lot of volunteer Departments have a way of filling the ranks with non-responders. How many combo or all volunteer departments can say their manpower is fully trained and at the top of their game? Now in the career site you have in service training, kitchen table chat, etc. We as career guys are always learning from the old salty dogs to the probie with the tags still on his gear.

As for politics in Westchester, that never happens How many times have departments been passed over cause this guys didn't like that one's department. This is getting old and while consolidation is an option, who is gonna be the one to pull the trigger and make it happen? everyone is so concerned with their reelection bid or popularity votes that they are not gonna risk it. How many studies have there been? I mean they spend money trying to figure out what anyone could tell you, the system don't work. It's gonna take someone with a real set to say the crap ends now.

Edited February 18, 2012 by BIGRED1

[JFLYNN 681]

There are those who believe career fire protection is the only "real" or effective fire protection, just as there are those who feel volunteers offer benefits in terms of cost saving and community involvement while offering the same quailty of service. As with everything each are entitled to their own views and are free to express them, but blanket statements are always wrong. Some dept.s are well run, well organized, professional and this ensures that they get the job done to the benefit of their communities, and some aren't and don't....and as much as many may want to dispute it this fact cuts right across the career/volunteer line. Paychecks do NOT guarantee anything other than people fighting fires as a job, just as volunteerism does not guarantee anything other than people having an association with a fire dept. In this case it seems that the cost to service ratio is way out of whack, but that in and of itself should not be an indictment of volunteer firefighting. Each department must be viewed independently to determine their value to those they serve and only those served have the right decide if their dept is indeed valuable to them.

Cogs

As usual Cogs a very articulate, thoughtful and respectful post. However, you may have misinterpreted my post...it was not a "blanket statement" and I do not feel that volunteers can not provide effective fire protection in all cases. I do believe that in some areas of the country volunteers are the only option and the protection they provide is effective.

However, my comment stands...in the area in which I live and work, the media allows many volunteer fire departments to operate completely ineffectively and wastefully with absolutely no hard questions being asked such as the ones which were asked in the article at the top of this thread.

JFLYNN its funny that the word volunteer comes out here. You and the media can be as critical of volunteers as you want but there are career departments that have called other career departments from far far away instead of the volunteers next door.

I challenge you to identify a specific example to prove that a career department has a policy of bypassing a nearby volunteer department which can guarantee that its members meet minimum training standards and personnel levels, and which has a better resonse time into the requesting career departments district.

By perpetuating this myth you do a diservice to the people we are sworn to protect. Why would you make such a statement? Surely you understand that the physical location of a fire station is irrelevant when that firehouse has no guarantee that an adequately sized crew of properly trained firefighters are inside of it?

Please don't make this a career vs. volunteer issue. This is an issue of being honest and realistic with ourselves and the public whom we are sworn to protect. Let's put ego and false pride aside and admit the realities here...

[ladder55 26]

...because we have the local media fooled and they would never risk running a story which is critical of volunteers...?

You chose to use the word volunteer over local fire depts. I'm not the one making this into a career vs volunteer issue, just commenting on your post.

[ffp20 14]

JFLYNN its funny that the word volunteer comes out here. You and the media can be as critical of volunteers as you want but there are career departments that have called other career departments from far far away instead of the volunteers next door.

Thats a two way street.

[JFLYNN 681]

You chose to use the word volunteer over local fire depts. I'm not the one making this into a career vs volunteer issue, just commenting on your post.

You are just not making any sense at all here????

[ny10570 745]

Stop getting offended. Volunteer is the obvious distinction between depts that can guarantee a level of training and staffing 24/7 here in the tri-state. No one can tell me they'd rather roll the dice with a volunteer mutual aid partner than a paid dept with a guaranteed response. Its not because one is volunteer or paid, it is because of the guaranteed response. Until a volunteer dept institutes a program that guarantees a timely response with a minimum number of qualified ffs it would be reckless for any dept to chose them over a reasonably close paid dept.

[Guest truck12345]

i have seen vollie depts. bypass career that where in eyesight to call neighboring vollie depts. that were 2-4 miles away to an actual working structure fire. Go figure.

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many combo or all volunteer departments can say their manpower is fully trained and at the top of their game?.......This is getting old and while consolidation is an option, who is gonna be the one to pull the trigger and make it happen? everyone is so concerned with their reelection bit or popularity votes that they are not gonna risk it. How many studies have there been? I mean they spend money trying to figure out what anyone could tell you, they system don't work. It's gonna take someone with a real set to say they crap ends now.

Please don't make this a career vs. volunteer issue. This is an issue of being honest and realistic with ourselves and the public whom we are sworn to protect. Let's put ego and false pride aside and admit the realities here...

6 years ago I wrote that what it would take is either a major disaster or the state forcing the issue.

Well the state has given us a tax cap, which is forcing almost everyone at a minimum to consider how it spends its money. I know of a dozen depts that are already cutting back. A few considering cutting manning. In the past year 2 depts had lay offs, another had threats of it. We have combo depts. that have zero volunteers, but think they can cover the town with 2 or 3 career members.

We have publicly seen depts. lose homes because they can not put a team on the field, others because they can not find the hydrant, others who have lose members because they did not want to train and follow OSHA laws. We have a local fire district that want to build new stations, after the public has said no, and the dept has no plan to staff the house. A few weeks ago I was at a town council meeting and the FD "leadership" stated: "we know we suck, but as long as the public does not know, it fine"....

Last week at a county fire marshals training class 4 different fire inspectors from 4 different towns asked: "what should the town do when the FD can not get a rig out the door or even 1 member to respond to a fire alarm"?

This is not an attack on firefighters, officers, volunteers, career, commissioners. It is an attack on a system that is a total failure. Yes there are some great depts here...but if you average them out county wide the numbers suck.

We have hit the iceburg, we all know there are not enought lifeboats but instead of working to save what we can, we would rather go down with the ship.

[helicopper 1,050]

You could take a lot of these quotes and insert them right here in the Hudson Valley! If nothing else we know we share common problems with lots of others.

RICHMOND, MINN. - Ron Terhaar's house is only a mile from a new million-dollar fire department. The new million-dollar fire department is only blocks from the fire hall run by the city of Richmond for more than a century. And both fire stations are only a 5-mile drive from the firehouse in nearby Cold Spring.

So when Terhaar, a retired pipefitter, spotted smoke billowing from his backyard workshop Jan. 13 and raced outside, he expected a quick response and a swift firefight.

An hour later, his shop was in ruins.

Unrealistic public expectations and no coordination of resources. Sad but all too common.

The crew's only experienced firefighter, Chief Jerry Vossen, was 90 miles away when the call came in and wouldn't get to the scene until much too late.

Why did he even try to respond from 90 minutes away? That's like leaving Albany for a fire in Westchester. Ridiculous.

A Jan. 24 editorial in the Cold Spring Record said, "There was too much that went wrong with this call."

Ya think?

"When do you figure you've got enough experience that people will quit watching you?" he said.

Does that ever happen? In the public service we're always being watched. No surprise there.

Jack Stang, a township resident and board supervisor who opposed the new fire hall, said many of his neighbors applaud the volunteer efforts but worry about response times and the lack of experience for a relatively untested crew, some of whom live or work as far away as 10 minutes from the fire hall.

Hmmmm... Sounds strangely familar.

Some also wonder whether there are enough volunteers in the area to sustain three departments. Still others worry about cost. In 2011, the operating budget for the Richmond Fire Department, which included the townships, was $118,000, said Martin Bode, the city administrator. The city's proposed 2012 fire budget is $98,000, Bode said. The proposed budget for the Chain of Lakes fire district is nearly that, on top of the debt on a fire hall, trucks, utilities and training estimated at more than $1 million, said Larry Lahr, the fire district's administrator.

Wow. This too sounds like a page right out of the Hudson Valley or nearby CT.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Unrealistic public expectations

Yes it is unrealistic for the public to think that they get high quality service in the highest taxed county in the nation.

We just keep fooling them...and ourselves.

[ny10570 745]

i have seen vollie depts. bypass career that where in eyesight to call neighboring vollie depts. that were 2-4 miles away to an actual working structure fire. Go figure.

I have seen Career FDs refuse mutual aid agreements with volleys because it was not mutual. The volleys could not guarantee the same response as the paid FD so they elected to not enter into an agreement. Understandably they did not want to become the primary firefighting force for a community that was not subsidizing their budget. I am not talking about jealous "If you don't want us, then we don't want you." BS. This case was about legal ramifications concerning responses to a dept for which there was no agreement. Was this possibly the case in that scenario? Otherwise that is simple negligence and any property damage or injuries should be the subject of a civil action.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So what happens when the XYZ alarm company calls either 60 control or the local FD 3 (answered by local PD), they tone the dept. and no one responds?

What does the dispatcher do next?

There is an expectation from the tax payer that when called (directly or by an alarm co.) that someone will respond. We have beat up on the concept of PD "check and advise" or the chief only response and not sending apparatus, but what happens when no one responds?

Can mutual aid be dispatched/respond without being formally requested? That opens some additional liability questions.

What liability is on the fire district or municipality (note: I did not include the dept. just the AHJ)?