Unions in private EMS

[masterofmetal85 10]

Federal law prohibits mandatory membership in labor unions, however if you opt not to join the union (except in right-to-work states, where no membership/dues/fees are required), you are still required to pay a fee equal to what the dues and customary fees would be, unless you are an agency fee payer objector (see Beck vs. CWA), then you are only required to pay a fee based on contract maintenance/negotiations, etc which in most cases results in 15% reduction in the fees. New York is an Agency Fee Payer State.

I'm under the impression that as a nurse joining a hospital or an EMT/Medic joining a FD like FDNY EMS or joining any union shop in particular you have to shell out union dues. I can't be hired by empress or FDNY or a hospital and say as a full time employee ( FDNY only hires full time) I opt to not be a part of the union. I know I'm right based on experience, and that's my grief people should be given a choice. No matter how small the percentage even if its just one person who says I do not wish to be a part of this union but I enjoy working here they should be given that right.

[ems-buff 81]

Ah tsk tsk more judgmental then this I cannot be:

1) I worked in a union shop (citywide mobile response a private in the bronx) for several months it was a bs union that did nothing for me except deduct money out of my check everyweek. People were still getting canned for dumb stuff etc etc. So I switched over to per diem so as to not get the money taken out.

2) Volunteered 2 places in brooklyn and Staten Island most if not all my BLS experience came from there before becoming a medic and I loved...in fact just the other week I went to go fill out paperwork to get back into it.

3) As far as picket lines I don't really care if its EMS RN or a teacher I have a job to do I'm going to work I'll do it with pride, I'm not selfish

4) NEVER EVER WHINED about ANYTHING in public even if a thought crossed my mind I'm not selfish and not a crybaby. I was happy enough to have a job because if you knew me personally not having a job was a big deal to me. If my supervisor said jump I said how high and no I didn't have any military experience I was raised to be respectful and appreciative of any and all opportunities. If you don't like being taken advantage of in EMS buckle down and go to med school or become something else. I love EMS so much that even when done with RN school I still want a full time gig on a bus. Its the nature of the beast and I'll take the bad with the good.

5) I don't watch TV I read mostly and I formulated my opinion on articles based on pro and anti union

6) I think medics should be making more then nurses do for their hard work but they don't so yea starting pay is kind of a big deal

wow.. How long have you been doing career EMS? You gripe about how money needs to be higher for paramedics and EMT's yet you shoot down the most influential and logical way of doing? You said you worked for a union for citywide.. Funny i never knew they had one. Was this for the ambulete or ambulance divison. Your on here asking about jobs, saying that no one is hiring.. Well I know for a fact that Empress is hiring as is transcare. The only thing is to work for empress you must be in the union. They dont give you a choice. is that a reason why you dont want to work there cause they are unionized?.

It EMS brothers like you who make it harder for the rest of us to further our careers and livelihood. While you are untitled to your opinion. I would strongly incourage you to look at unions openmindedly.. Cause with out unions in certin companys. You would make a fraction of what is considered starting pay in this area, and there would be nothing you could do, short of loosing your job to get fair rights.. ( not sighting any specific company just making a generalized statement)

[ny10570 745]

I'm under the impression that as a nurse joining a hospital or an EMT/Medic joining a FD like FDNY EMS or joining any union shop in particular you have to shell out union dues. I can't be hired by empress or FDNY or a hospital and say as a full time employee ( FDNY only hires full time) I opt to not be a part of the union. I know I'm right based on experience, and that's my grief people should be given a choice. No matter how small the percentage even if its just one person who says I do not wish to be a part of this union but I enjoy working here they should be given that right.

Would you still take that FDNY EMS gig without all the union perks? No pension, no health insurance, no LOD benefits, and no civil service protection? Its available with Transcare and they pay more. They're constantly hiring for 911.

[masterofmetal85 10]

Thats an absolute scam and should be stopped. But are you trying to say its only unions and the poor that are scamming the system?? Everyone is doing it. Doesn't make it right, but you have to be honest and point out fraud on all sides.

Lots of unions got deep in bed with the mob. Some still are. They did a great disservice to the labor movement. But again is labor the only criminals? How many business over the years have been found to willfully allow their products or practices to hurt and kill people. How many workers lives have been sacrificed in the name of profitability? You're not casting every business with the same blankets as you're using for labor. Why?

There's a lot of reasons that nurses make more. Unions will not be a quick fix. But do me a favor and look at all the work rules and safety requirements for their employers. Who do you think got nurses their training standardization, staffing minimums, workday limits, infectious disease precautions, etc. These are all union advances. You can cross that picket line, but where do you think raises come from? Do you think hospitals really give up every penny they can towards employee compensation?? The hospital administrators job, their primary responsibility is financial stability. They need that hospital to run as cheaply as humanly possible. They'd do backflips if they could hire nurses for half of what they're currently being paid. The only thing stopping them from slashing your wages and benefits are unions. The fear that the nurses will all walk out in protest and shut the hospital down. Their greed vs our greed, thats all this is about.

exactly right all the comments pro union I've heard have been self centered and self gratifying and look what they did for me and look what they did for that guy. The unions don't care about you as long as you keep paying them, its greed all of it on both sides. A mans word is valued at crap these days when the start of this nation when someone gave you their word they meant it. I don't know when this red tape BS came in but its pathetic and has no integrity, and promotes bad habits such as laziness. It should be wake up in the morning to a nice breakfast made by your wife, drink your coffee and read the paper, drive or take a bus/train to work, walk in to work, punch in, do your assignments, mind your business, work as hard as you can all the while being proud of your work, and then punch go home sit down for dinner with the wife and kids have a little family time afterwards make love to your wife say your prayers and go to sleep to wake up and do it all over again the next day. Why this isn't the picture for the average household is beyond me because when I hear the American dream this is what I picture. This is country is beyond %&*#ed and I'm wondering if there is anything to do to save it. Yes we live in a capitalist society where small business can get started and grow to big businesses that's the beauty of the USA. But not everyone is meant to be a private business owner, some of us just want to work and simply be happy with what we do.

[masterofmetal85 10]

wow.. How long have you been doing career EMS? You gripe about how money needs to be higher for paramedics and EMT's yet you shoot down the most influential and logical way of doing? You said you worked for a union for citywide.. Funny i never knew they had one. Was this for the ambulete or ambulance divison. Your on here asking about jobs, saying that no one is hiring.. Well I know for a fact that Empress is hiring as is transcare. The only thing is to work for empress you must be in the union. They dont give you a choice. is that a reason why you dont want to work there cause they are unionized?.

It EMS brothers like you who make it harder for the rest of us to further our careers and livelihood. While you are untitled to your opinion. I would strongly incourage you to look at unions openmindedly.. Cause with out unions in certin companys. You would make a fraction of what is considered starting pay in this area, and there would be nothing you could do, short of loosing your job to get fair rights.. ( not sighting any specific company just making a generalized statement)

Citywides union is across the board except for management. I was a medic for them at 21$/ hr which is the same practically for all privates in NYC TC Assist, senior care , primary care, 1st response, all non union and pay 20-23$ and the benefits were not outstanding with citywide anyways. Plus I found it a little odd that most of their BLS crews who were screwing the dispatchers were doing nothing while the ALS crews were doing all their BLS calls (discharges, renal runs, appointments etc) in fact I've been sent to do calls like while a BLS crew was sent to a nursing home for a diff breather or Chest pain on numerous occasions. I didn't b**** about it to anyone I just went to my supervisor and said hey can you make me per diem instead of full time and that was that. The favoritism still existed. There was a guy there who I did my one ride along with and he was there for 15 + years only making 25$ which is $4 more then what I started with.

I wasn't aware of empress hiring last I checked they weren't ( a couple of months ago)and TC i used to work for and they don't rehire anyone whether you quite or got fired (a good friend of mine was @ TC and went to FDNY she wanted to go per diem in stead of quiting but they fired her anyways because the notice to go per diem was less then 2 weeks notice)

[masterofmetal85 10]

Would you still take that FDNY EMS gig without all the union perks? No pension, no health insurance, no LOD benefits, and no civil service protection? Its available with Transcare and they pay more. They're constantly hiring for 911.

Well maybe I wanted to work for FDNY but again my issue is why do I have to be forced to accept a union as an agreement for being hired there.

[gamewell45 258]

lets start with this jerk and we'll see how everyone digests it

Since when does NEA speak for all of organized labor?? Do you know what the term "Stereotyping" means?

[gamewell45 258]

I just want to point out that as soon as I made my first comment contra to most if not all the opinion on here I was attacked and molested by a banter of negative rhetoric. I suppose peoples opinions are not respected anymore. I wonder how many ron paul fanatics are on this site. Calling everyone stupid crazy idiot for not agreeing with them. I weep for this country

Well if you had presented your opinion in a respectful way, then perhaps you might have gotten responses that were more respectful.

[masterofmetal85 10]

Well if you had presented your opinion in a respectful way, then perhaps you might have gotten responses that were more respectful.

ok "kind sir" I said this "I for one despise and loathe unions, so my opinion is biased and I'll stop with that. Theyre a bunch of mafia thugs who only push to sell their "product" which is a membership. They only care about themselves, gaining more members and how they can control and increase power. Employees should be given a choice whether or not to join a union when incoming to a company."

This reflects my negative opinion on unions and how I feel about them regardless of the reason it's my outlook on a workforce responding to another company that many people love to call a "union". The second & third sentence comes from articles and videos I researched into. Regardless if you want to agree or disagree with them I have put some validity to said articles and videos. The fourth sentence again states my opinion why a worker shouldn't be forced to join a union upon being hired by a unionized agency ie being hired by empress, fdny , a hospital etc. which I will hold onto till the day I die... if this is the land of the so- called free (which I'm finding out isn't the case day by day... we might as well use the constitution for toilet paper) why do I have to submit my paycheck to union deductions if I sign up to work for a unionized agency whether anyone argues if its beneficial or harmful necessary or not I don't care it shouldn't be forced on any incoming new employees, that to me is foul; and no one can provide a rational for this yet the only thing I'll probably here is that's the way it is too bad.

Now...

you said this:

"I've always worked union my entire life, so I can testify to the benefits of being union.....Just my two cents from a veteran union member. " in a previous post

.......I can see now why you took this personal

Edited February 21, 2012 by masterofmetal85

[masterofmetal85 10]

I want what everyone wants but I think should realize that unions are also companies. They hire employees and go through some of the same process as corporate companies go through in terms of tax id, payroll etc and their source of income is your money....if it were a true "union" in the sense there wouldn't be a separate 3rd party company representing disgruntled employees. The disgruntled employees would represent themselves and their would be no union initiation fees and weekly dues. TC doesn't need a "union" its employees are its union, they just don't realize it. If a majority of them got together and said hey we don't like the way things are happening here and tried to grab as many of other TC employees as possible and brought a request to the upper echelon and said "hey you need to pay EMTS x $ and medics x $ and we want these types of benefits. TC will obviously say no then they all say "ok fine we don't show up to work for a few days." The question is will TC be able to survive if 85-90% of their NY state workforce is AWOL, will they be able to rapidly hire and replace those 85-90% missing?

My answer is maybe, because there's always people especially in EMS that are looking for/are desperate for work. With the rate of new grads on the street you'll never prevent them from walking in the door to TC and filing applications and if TC is that short they'll start running 24/7 open house. Each medic program in NYC alone (there's 3 I believe) graduates 20-30 students twice a year. So that's any where from 120-180 new medics in NYC where are they going? I didn't touch on EMT graduates. Then there's programs in westchester, LI, Hudson valley etc. You want the answer to better treatment for EMS, its simple economics with supply and demand. If I were to open a new company, wherever it is (and I'd love to in reality one day) I can pay like crap and treat the workers like crap and you know what? one leaves and an ad goes up on craigslist and a few other sites: monster, indeed.com, Jobsearch etc etc and I'll find more then enough replacements within a few days. You want a lower supply and higher demand shut down EMS programs for medics and EMTs for about two years maybe three watch how much better you're working conditions and pay improve. These major companies AMR TC Rural Metro have analysts project payroll based on need suppy demand etc they're so confident in knowing that you're just another number because in reality you are. There's another Medic/EMT waiting at the door to fill out an application or already did and is waiting to get called back. This is just the truth. Take Pharmacists for example; only 2 programs exist in nyc that graduate RPh's, Long Island University in downtown BK and St Johns in queens not only are these classes small its EXTREMELY competitive to get into these programs which only graduate a class once a year. They're held to a much higher standard. That's why a new grad out of pharm school gets a job in the back of a walgreens or a CVS for $50+ / hr with a neat benefits package. And it seems that theres always a new chain pharmacy opening up a store every where I look. Face it you want EMS to be held to a similar to standard and prestige then it starts at the academic level. Make Para-medicine a 2 year or 4 year program, raise the standards to be highly competitive and watch the rates of incoming and outgoing students drop which in turns leaves less pawns for the private companies and municipal agencies which in turn they'll place more value then they do now on the head of a paramedic. Look unions shouldn't be about bitching and whining over a late call or two or being mandated that's part of the job and that's our job if we choose to get on that ambulance everyday. If that's someones main reason for aching for a union then choose a different profession maybe a 9-5 M-F cause this ain't it. People ache for unions mostly for salary increase and good benefits...well I just gave one way to establish a good prestigious and respectable reputation for EMS workers where the upper management will actually look at us a little differently not just some slaves in a van with their company name on it.

Edited February 21, 2012 by masterofmetal85

[INIT915 1,119]

I think, in short, this describes the utility of unions:

Without unions, it's 100% management's way, 100% of the time. With unions, there is at least some give or take. Management never gets 100% of what they and neither do the unions. At least it assures some level of compromise, and neither side is holding all the cards I mean, could you imagine if management, in some sectors, had unchecked power. Workers wouldn't stand a chance. And in some right-to-work states, that's how it is.

Masterofmetal, this isn't directed to you, as you have made up your mind long before any debate began. Rather, it's directed to anyone who does seek to see the benefit of unionization. Luckily, for many, this is America. There are plenty of places you can go to work and take whatever management offers you, without recourse. Not a single person has to belong to a Union.

[INIT915 1,119]

If a majority of them got together and said hey we don't like the way things are happening here and tried to grab as many of other TC employees as possible and brought a request to the upper echelon and said "hey you need to pay EMTS x $ and medics x $ and we want these types of benefits. TC will obviously say no then they all say "ok fine we don't show up to work for a few days." The question is will TC be able to survive if 85-90% of their NY state workforce is AWOL, will they be able to rapidly hire and replace those 85-90% missing?

So, your suggesting a work action that could potentially leave 911 ambulances unstaffed in a system like NYC? That's your answer? What kind of ethics, morals, and integrity do you preach?

The irony here is rich. Public employee unions cannot and would not do the exact thing you suggest. We come in everyday, staff our units, respond to calls, and let union representation negotiate for change. Instead, you suggest leaving the public at risk?

You've spent the better part of the last few days taking on the evil, dreaded, unscrupulous unions when your solution is to abandon your post. Very interesting.

[masterofmetal85 10]

So, your suggesting a work action that could potentially leave 911 ambulances unstaffed in a system like NYC? That's your answer? What kind of ethics, morals, and integrity do you preach?

The irony here is rich. Public employee unions cannot and would not do the exact thing you suggest. We come in everyday, staff our units, respond to calls, and let union representation negotiate for change. Instead, you suggest leaving the public at risk?

You've spent the better part of the last few days taking on the evil, dreaded, unscrupulous unions when your solution is to abandon your post. Very interesting.

No I was simply stating the idea of supply and demand. First off TC staffs 4 ambulances out of Beth Israel 1 from NYU 3 from Mt Sinai thats all manhattan. They lost montefiore north and south in the bronx and still holding onto bx leb and st barn so will NYC be thrust into chaos no but will there be a strain on the system maybe anyways that's not what I was hoping to happen any way it was theoretical and instead of focusing on the theory behind what I said and make sense out of it you run to pain the picture like I'm a bad guy. All the while the problem will always remain the same

[INIT915 1,119]

No I was simply stating the idea of supply and demand. First off TC staffs 4 ambulances out of Beth Israel 1 from NYU 3 from Mt Sinai thats all manhattan. They lost montefiore north and south in the bronx and still holding onto bx leb and st barn so will NYC be thrust into chaos no but will there be a strain on the system maybe anyways that's not what I was hoping to happen any way it was theoretical and instead of focusing on the theory behind what I said and make sense out of it you run to pain the picture like I'm a bad guy. All the while the problem will always remain the same

I didn't have to "paint a picture". Those were your own words. Advocating a work stoppage in the field of emergency services. I think it's clear to everyone now where you are coming from.

[masterofmetal85 10]

I didn't have to "paint a picture". Those were your own words. Advocating a work stoppage in the field of emergency services. I think it's clear to everyone now where you are coming from.

isn't that what unions advocate with Pickett lines and strikes? didn't the mta pull that off in dec 05 I believe with a strike initiated by their union bringing nyc to a screeching halt. Do I have to pull numbers of the damages that followed bet their union honcho wasn't thinking of that on his mind. or the snow storm of last year I have a friend on the inside of DSNY who said the union leader went to each garage right after the demotion of a bunch of foremen due to the city's budge and said when the next storm comes park your plows and turn off the ignition. Look what happened there. I was pointing out walk off or not you're just a # to any agency WE work for because of the low demand and high supply of medics and emts

[helicopper 1,050]

1) I worked in a union shop (citywide mobile response a private in the bronx) for several months it was a bs union that did nothing for me except deduct money out of my check everyweek. People were still getting canned for dumb stuff etc etc. So I switched over to per diem so as to not get the money taken out.

2) Volunteered 2 places in brooklyn and Staten Island most if not all my BLS experience came from there before becoming a medic and I loved...in fact just the other week I went to go fill out paperwork to get back into it.

3) As far as picket lines I don't really care if its EMS RN or a teacher I have a job to do I'm going to work I'll do it with pride, I'm not selfish

4) NEVER EVER WHINED about ANYTHING in public even if a thought crossed my mind I'm not selfish and not a crybaby. I was happy enough to have a job because if you knew me personally not having a job was a big deal to me. If my supervisor said jump I said how high and no I didn't have any military experience I was raised to be respectful and appreciative of any and all opportunities. If you don't like being taken advantage of in EMS buckle down and go to med school or become something else. I love EMS so much that even when done with RN school I still want a full time gig on a bus. Its the nature of the beast and I'll take the bad with the good.

5) I don't watch TV I read mostly and I formulated my opinion on articles based on pro and anti union

6) I think medics should be making more then nurses do for their hard work but they don't so yea starting pay is kind of a big deal

Several whole months? Wow. That's a long time to gain valuable insight into the inner workings of a labor organization. [/sarcasm]

I've been in a union shop for 23 years. I don't always agree with the union's position on things and they don't always represent me personally but they do lobby for the best interests of the membership as a whole (things like healtchare benefits, pay, working conditions, etc.) and for that I pay dues. I shudder to think about what the emergency services would be like without unions and without things like OSHA, the NFPA, NIOSH, etc. Without these things, as has already been stated, we would be 100% at the mercy of management who do not have the interests of the worker at heart. They have the interests of the company, shareholders (if applicable), and management at heart.

To say that all unions are corrupt or aligned with organized crime is an inaccurate generalization that misses the majority of work that unions do. Your assertion that a union is taking dues from welfare recipients sounds like an urban legend so please find and post a citation supporting that claim so we can all learn about that insanity.

You're complaining about the manner in which members are responding to you but you're not posting objectively and without injecting your own venom. You're making sweeping generalizations and characterizing all unions as no good and members - union and non-union alike - are responding in kind. If you want to engage in a civil discourse, start by being civil yourself.

As for crossing picket lines, not having been a union member you'll never understand the significance of that statement. Of course, law prevents us in the emergency services from striking but that's a separate issue.

Just a suggestion, why don't you dial down the hostility and cite some real references for your claims besides YouTube videos. It might make a more compelling argument for your position and result in fewer hostile responses. Just a thought.

[gamewell45 258]

ok "kind sir" I said this "I for one despise and loathe unions, so my opinion is biased and I'll stop with that. Theyre a bunch of mafia thugs who only push to sell their "product" which is a membership. They only care about themselves, gaining more members and how they can control and increase power. Employees should be given a choice whether or not to join a union when incoming to a company."

This reflects my negative opinion on unions and how I feel about them regardless of the reason it's my outlook on a workforce responding to another company that many people love to call a "union". The second & third sentence comes from articles and videos I researched into. Regardless if you want to agree or disagree with them I have put some validity to said articles and videos. The fourth sentence again states my opinion why a worker shouldn't be forced to join a union upon being hired by a unionized agency ie being hired by empress, fdny , a hospital etc. which I will hold onto till the day I die... if this is the land of the so- called free (which I'm finding out isn't the case day by day... we might as well use the constitution for toilet paper) why do I have to submit my paycheck to union deductions if I sign up to work for a unionized agency whether anyone argues if its beneficial or harmful necessary or not I don't care it shouldn't be forced on any incoming new employees, that to me is foul; and no one can provide a rational for this yet the only thing I'll probably here is that's the way it is too bad.

Now...

you said this:

"I've always worked union my entire life, so I can testify to the benefits of being union.....Just my two cents from a veteran union member. " in a previous post

.......I can see now why you took this personal

I'll PM you because i'm not going to dignify your post in public.

[masterofmetal85 10]

Several whole months? Wow. That's a long time to gain valuable insight into the inner workings of a labor organization. [/sarcasm]

I've been in a union shop for 23 years. I don't always agree with the union's position on things and they don't always represent me personally but they do lobby for the best interests of the membership as a whole (things like healtchare benefits, pay, working conditions, etc.) and for that I pay dues. I shudder to think about what the emergency services would be like without unions and without things like OSHA, the NFPA, NIOSH, etc. Without these things, as has already been stated, we would be 100% at the mercy of management who do not have the interests of the worker at heart. They have the interests of the company, shareholders (if applicable), and management at heart.

To say that all unions are corrupt or aligned with organized crime is an inaccurate generalization that misses the majority of work that unions do. Your assertion that a union is taking dues from welfare recipients sounds like an urban legend so please find and post a citation supporting that claim so we can all learn about that insanity.

You're complaining about the manner in which members are responding to you but you're not posting objectively and without injecting your own venom. You're making sweeping generalizations and characterizing all unions as no good and members - union and non-union alike - are responding in kind. If you want to engage in a civil discourse, start by being civil yourself.

As for crossing picket lines, not having been a union member you'll never understand the significance of that statement. Of course, law prevents us in the emergency services from striking but that's a separate issue.

Just a suggestion, why don't you dial down the hostility and cite some real references for your claims besides YouTube videos. It might make a more compelling argument for your position and result in fewer hostile responses. Just a thought.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/forced-to-join-a-union%3A-seiu-taking-money-from-michigan-medicaid-checks

I'm waiting to hear how am I going to get trashed for this link

[ny10570 745]

exactly right all the comments pro union I've heard have been self centered and self gratifying and look what they did for me and look what they did for that guy. The unions don't care about you as long as you keep paying them, its greed all of it on both sides. A mans word is valued at crap these days when the start of this nation when someone gave you their word they meant it. I don't know when this red tape BS came in but its pathetic and has no integrity, and promotes bad habits such as laziness. It should be wake up in the morning to a nice breakfast made by your wife, drink your coffee and read the paper, drive or take a bus/train to work, walk in to work, punch in, do your assignments, mind your business, work as hard as you can all the while being proud of your work, and then punch go home sit down for dinner with the wife and kids have a little family time afterwards make love to your wife say your prayers and go to sleep to wake up and do it all over again the next day. Why this isn't the picture for the average household is beyond me because when I hear the American dream this is what I picture. This is country is beyond %&*#ed and I'm wondering if there is anything to do to save it. Yes we live in a capitalist society where small business can get started and grow to big businesses that's the beauty of the USA. But not everyone is meant to be a private business owner, some of us just want to work and simply be happy with what we do.

This Rockwellian ideal of American society you have is so far beyond dead. Its not because of unions. Its capitalism. People competing with one another hard to work harder. To expand the housing market mortgage companies began including the spouses income in their calculations. Shiftless lazy workers have been around as long as there have been jobs. Its nothing new and its not going anywhere. Deal with it.

TC doesn't need a "union" its employees are its union, they just don't realize it. If a majority of them got together and said hey we don't like the way things are happening here and tried to grab as many of other TC employees as possible and brought a request to the upper echelon and said "hey you need to pay EMTS x $ and medics x $ and we want these types of benefits. TC will obviously say no then they all say "ok fine we don't show up to work for a few days." The question is will TC be able to survive if 85-90% of their NY state workforce is AWOL, will they be able to rapidly hire and replace those 85-90% missing?

Umm, that is a union except without the legal protection. Without a formal union you have none of the protection offered under state and federal labor laws. So when you guys all walk Transcare can tell you to GFY. As a union transcare would be require to either prove your demands were unreasonable or be forced to sit down and negotiate. Union dues are not just spent on lunches and extra compensation. You need labor lawyers to interpret the arcane and complex layers of applicable legislation. You need lawyers to write and interpret contracts. Running a union of a few thousand people is a full time job. If the job isn't going to offer dental or vision benefits, people can either go out on their own and buy coverage or pitch in together and buy in bulk. Now you're going to need someone that has the time and skill to manage such a fund. Want help from a politician on some legislation you're going to need to help get them elected or re-elected.

I really don't think you have a complete and accurate picture of what a union provides its members. You seem to know all about the scandal and missteps, but none of the triumphs and successes. DC37 FDNY EMS's parent union was such garbage it had to be taken over by the national. Our local was so corrupt that when our previous president took over they gave up their compensation for 6 months and had to raise dues just to pay rent. Both were examples of an apathetic and uninvolved membership being taken advantage of by unscrupulous leaders. The greatest protection against this kind of graft is an active membership. You clearly agree with the idea of a union but seem to have no real first hand experience. You say these unions did nothing for you. What were they supposed to do? What did you ask for that they did not provide?

[helicopper 1,050]

http://www.myfoxdetr...medicaid-checks

I'm waiting to hear how am I going to get trashed for this link

Thank you. I didn't think that was a local issue. This is not strictly a union issue; it's a complete failure on everyone's part - the legislature that wrote the law enabling this, the government agencies going along with it, and the union that advocated it.

However, I still don't see the proof that all unions are corrupt.

You can find instances of "bad apples" in anything but instead of identifying this as an isolated incident you're asserting that all unions are corrupt or operating in a similar fashion.

You're not going to get trashed if you treat the rest of us as you want to be treated.

[masterofmetal85 10]

This Rockwellian ideal of American society you have is so far beyond dead. Its not because of unions. Its capitalism. People competing with one another hard to work harder. To expand the housing market mortgage companies began including the spouses income in their calculations. Shiftless lazy workers have been around as long as there have been jobs. Its nothing new and its not going anywhere. Deal with it.

Umm, that is a union except without the legal protection. Without a formal union you have none of the protection offered under state and federal labor laws. So when you guys all walk Transcare can tell you to GFY. As a union transcare would be require to either prove your demands were unreasonable or be forced to sit down and negotiate. Union dues are not just spent on lunches and extra compensation. You need labor lawyers to interpret the arcane and complex layers of applicable legislation. You need lawyers to write and interpret contracts. Running a union of a few thousand people is a full time job. If the job isn't going to offer dental or vision benefits, people can either go out on their own and buy coverage or pitch in together and buy in bulk. Now you're going to need someone that has the time and skill to manage such a fund. Want help from a politician on some legislation you're going to need to help get them elected or re-elected.

I really don't think you have a complete and accurate picture of what a union provides its members. You seem to know all about the scandal and missteps, but none of the triumphs and successes. DC37 FDNY EMS's parent union was such garbage it had to be taken over by the national. Our local was so corrupt that when our previous president took over they gave up their compensation for 6 months and had to raise dues just to pay rent. Both were examples of an apathetic and uninvolved membership being taken advantage of by unscrupulous leaders. The greatest protection against this kind of graft is an active membership. You clearly agree with the idea of a union but seem to have no real first hand experience. You say these unions did nothing for you. What were they supposed to do? What did you ask for that they did not provide?

you're right TC will say GFY because there's a couple hundred emts and medics that would be waiting to come on board. emts and medics are a dime a dozen these days the company doesn't care if you're a great or experienced EMT or medic in fact they'd rather hire the inexperienced ones for pay reasons. our bickering on here wont change the fact that ems wont change tomorrow next year or probably in our life time. It might even just keep getting worse

[INIT915 1,119]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/forced-to-join-a-union%3A-seiu-taking-money-from-michigan-medicaid-checks

I'm waiting to hear how am I going to get trashed for this link

You don't get it. No one here has argued that unions are perfect. No one. Union organizations, just like private businesses, non-profits, hospitals, schools, have their winners and their losers. Many union officials have been kicked to the curb when their unethical dealings have been brought to light. But guess what, the same thing happens even in the absence of unions. I'm not sure where your hostility comes from. There are so many non-union shops around here. You have every right to avoid unionization. And from the sound of it, both you and your prospective union would do well to avoid each other.

Is it your position that employment in absence of unions if perfection? If you do, I think we can post just as many videos of critiques of those. Think about it, every few months we read about volunteers embezzling from VAC's, FD's, little leagues, etc., etc., etc.

So, what is your point? You don't like unions. Unions don't like you. You don't have to engage them. Where are you going with all this?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

isn't that what unions advocate with Pickett lines and strikes? didn't the mta pull that off in dec 05 I believe with a strike initiated by their union bringing nyc to a screeching halt. Do I have to pull numbers of the damages that followed bet their union honcho wasn't thinking of that on his mind. or the snow storm of last year I have a friend on the inside of DSNY who said the union leader went to each garage right after the demotion of a bunch of foremen due to the city's budge and said when the next storm comes park your plows and turn off the ignition. Look what happened there. I was pointing out walk off or not you're just a # to any agency WE work for because of the low demand and high supply of medics and emts

Your problem is you paint with a broad brush. Emergency Services cannot have a work stoppage. In all actuality MTA can't either and they paid fines and their president was arrested.

As far as your DSNY comment...so be it...but your not telling the whole story. And good for them if they got their point across.

[masterofmetal85 10]

Thank you. I didn't think that was a local issue. This is not strictly a union issue; it's a complete failure on everyone's part - the legislature that wrote the law enabling this, the government agencies going along with it, and the union that advocated it.

However, I still don't see the proof that all unions are corrupt.

You can find instances of "bad apples" in anything but instead of identifying this as an isolated incident you're asserting that all unions are corrupt or operating in a similar fashion.

You're not going to get trashed if you treat the rest of us as you want to be treated.

I still don't see how I mistreated you personally unless you are a union organization, then I can see why you took everything so personal. In any case this constant bickering can go on and on but it still won't change the fact that EMS won't change tomorrow, next year or in our lifetime unfortunately it might even get worse.

[masterofmetal85 10]

Your problem is you paint with a broad brush. Emergency Services cannot have a work stoppage. In all actuality MTA can't either and they paid fines and their president was arrested.

As far as your DSNY comment...so be it...but your not telling the whole story. And good for them if they got their point across.

I don't know the whole story I know the story told to me by a sanitation worker who is a friend of mine which is a source I wouldn't deem un-credible. In retaliation for a demotion of a number of foremen I don't recall how many but I believe 150 the union advised off the record of course the sanitation workers that the next snow storm no matter how big or small to park and do nothing. So I would really like to see you say good for them if they got their point across to the loved ones of all those who died (I do hope you know there was a large amount of deaths because of last years snow storms and the lack of plowing) because emergency crews weren't able to reach the emergencies from all the blocked roadways with snow. Real nice I guess this proves my point with union mentality... very self centered and power hungry.

Edited February 22, 2012 by masterofmetal85

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I still don't see how I mistreated you personally unless you are a union organization, then I can see why you took everything so personal. In any case this constant bickering can go on and on but it still won't change the fact that EMS won't change tomorrow, next year or in our lifetime unfortunately it might even get worse.

And along with that more then likely you will never get that its people like you who often are a huge part of it not advancing.

And your comments were very personal for anyone who is unionized, particularly those of us in strong fair organizations.

The funniest of all your comments and the only one that truly made me chuckle is the one where you said you didn't take the FDNY EMS job because you had to join the union. Really? For job security, upward advancement, great retirement in EMS consideration I'd pay dues to 2 unions. But hey..keep shopping for better starting pay, etc. and your "career" which will probably end up by working for 2 to 3 privates to make any money and kill yourself to attempt to retire on peanuts.

IAFF strong and proud.

[INIT915 1,119]

So I would really like to see you say good for them if they got their point across to the loved ones of all those who died (I do hope there was a large amount of deaths because of last years snow storms and the lack of plowing) because emergency crews weren't able to reach the emergencies from all the blocked roadways with snow. Real nice I guess this proves my point with union mentality... very self centered and power hungry.

This from the same guy who only an hour ago suggested that 90% of TCNY should just not show up and staff 911 ambulances. You cannot have it both ways.

[masterofmetal85 10]

You don't get it. No one here has argued that unions are perfect. No one. Union organizations, just like private businesses, non-profits, hospitals, schools, have their winners and their losers. Many union officials have been kicked to the curb when their unethical dealings have been brought to light. But guess what, the same thing happens even in the absence of unions. I'm not sure where your hostility comes from. There are so many non-union shops around here. You have every right to avoid unionization. And from the sound of it, both you and your prospective union would do well to avoid each other.

Is it your position that employment in absence of unions if perfection? If you do, I think we can post just as many videos of critiques of those. Think about it, every few months we read about volunteers embezzling from VAC's, FD's, little leagues, etc., etc., etc.

So, what is your point? You don't like unions. Unions don't like you. You don't have to engage them. Where are you going with all this?

My position is unions cause more harm then good as evident by more previous post regarding DSNY and the snow plowing halt. Unions tend to be corrupt from my research into them and those that disagree look at only the personal benefits as I previously stated. So in essence the object here is to combat corruption at the management level with corruption from unions. Whether you're aware and turning a blind eye or oblivious to it that is essentially what is occurring. Again nothing personal to you or any other posters here. I don't intend to attack anyone this is my opinion/revelation and I think the union concept as it stands needs to be scrapped and started all over again. Like I said again this bickering isn't solving anything EMS won't change unless I said happens actually happens. Unions won't change unless people become sick and tired of them and unfortunately aren't currently, and only look at the personal gain. So it is what it is.

[INIT915 1,119]

I still don't see how I mistreated you personally unless you are a union organization, then I can see why you took everything so personal. In any case this constant bickering can go on and on but it still won't change the fact that EMS won't change tomorrow, next year or in our lifetime unfortunately it might even get worse.

Do you ever ask yourself why career FFs and law enforcement officers in the NY Metro area do so well in terms of salary, benefits, work schedules, working conditions, pensions, benefits, etc.?

And then do you ask yourself why EMS workers need to work 2, 3 maybe 4 jobs and still earn less then their civil service counterparts, and all without the same benefits?

Why would you bash unions who figured out how to play the game and maybe encourage EMS to follow their lead?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't know the whole story I know the story told to me by a sanitation worker who is a friend of mine which is a source I wouldn't deem un-credible. In retaliation for a demotion of a number of foremen I don't recall how many but I believe 150 the union advised off the record of course the sanitation workers that the next snow storm no matter how big or small to park and do nothing. So I would really like to see you say good for them if they got their point across to the loved ones of all those who died (I do hope there was a large amount of deaths because of last years snow storms and the lack of plowing) because emergency crews weren't able to reach the emergencies from all the blocked roadways with snow. Real nice I guess this proves my point with union mentality... very self centered and power hungry.

Right because managments decision to cut and demote wasn't self centered and power hungary? If you go work for a company who tells you your starting pay is $25 and hour for the first year...and you set your life on that salary....and a year later instead of getting a raise they tell you sorry but your now going to make $18 hour....who's the self centered one. Not to mention from what I understand some of the cuts caused a lack of a spotter which for tight streets is a must, and was policy to have one..but yet the policy wasn't changed. And finally the last time I checked the roads were getting and in fact all did get plowed.

And there was systemic issues with preparation for such a storm. Funny how when other areas plows are overwhelmed with removal we don't get numbers of death sensationalized by the media. Why during heat waves do people not blame the city for the higher amount of deaths then for not providing air conditioning? Which heat by the way is the highest killer of all environmental factors. I'm not following your paraenthesis..but you put "I do hope there was a large amount of deaths." Huh? I mean am I missing something...I don't remember seeing walls of snow on streets..but I do remember seeing ambulances with no chains, etc. Like I said keep reading (since you say you don't watch TV). I often have to hoof it to houses I can't make it to during snow storms...you do what you must. I mean was it not so self centered and power induced that the person who is overall responsible for the city was on a tropical island and then wouldn't divulge where he was?