Firehouse closures AGAIN

[Guest truck12345]

What is the min manning per ladder?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

6. 1 officer, 5 firefighter on all FDNY truck companies.

[Guest truck12345]

maybe if they went to 4men truck co. they could stop station closings.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

maybe if they went to 4men truck co. they could stop station closings.

Why would/should they? This is nothing more than the annual scare tactic from bloomturd. Every year its close 20 houses and every year the money is found else where and no houses close. It been like that for at least 4 years now. Second, your saying that each truck company should be 33% less effective at their job, putting firefighter and civilian lives at risk? For what reason? To prevent the non-happening closure of 20 houses? One of the hallmarks of the FDNY and the reason why NYC has among the lowest fire deaths, property loss and fire department services tax per capita in its history is the fact the FDNY is so well staffed, trained and equipped. Imagine what would happen to your truck co, your department, your citizens and your municipality if you cut your truck company in 1/3 truck12345.

I think you should get a better idea of how and why the FDNY staffs and functions as it does before you make wildly uninformed suggestions about how the FDNY should be run...your no better than those who seek to cut the 20 companies...

[M' Ave 1,466]

maybe if they went to 4men truck co. they could stop station closings.

Msot of the important things that needed to be said were already said above. I'll just add that, we don't want to see any companies close, NONE. However, it's not our job to provide an adequate blanket of coverage. It's our job to maintain the staffing level that we have, the staffing level that allows us to do our job to the best of our ability.

Sacrificing staffing for company closings is robbing Peter to pay Paul. That might keep response times a little lower, but it will ultimately limit the speed and extent of our operations on the fire ground.

[Guest truck12345]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

No one ever said they did it well. FDNY and LAFDCo are the model, everyone else is an imitator...

[Guest truck12345]

Ithink LAFD is also facing restructuring and they r closing co.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

There isn't a job on this planet that doesn't want more manpower. Fire's would go out without fire departments too, after causing just a little more damage......who in emergency services thinks this way?!

There are loads of jobs operating with 3 and 4 firefighters. They do this wishing they had more men, they do this at greater peril to themselves and they do this at a disadvantage to the public. Studies show that 4 firefighters take twice as long as 5 to get a hose line in operation. Take a position away from the truck? That'll leave you needing 2 trucks to begin the same operation that is now started with the arrival of the first due ladder.

What's your agenda here? Do you want to see staffing reductions? Last year we had fewer than 100 fire deaths. This is in a city of 8.5 million residents. Do you think this is directly related to staffing levels? It is.

[grumpyff 1,159]

There is a reason why FDNY has 6 man ladder companies. Not many other cities have 5 and 6 story buildings packed with people in them, block after block. Maybe one here, one there, but in many areas of NYC thats all there is. Buildings, some of which are almost a hundred years old with heavy fire load,with high life safety concerns. That is the reason FDNY is so aggressive in the ways that it fights fire, it has to, to ensure safety to hundreds of people who live in just one building. This is even reflected in the turnout gear they wear. It is the heaviest gear on the market, because it offers the most thermal barrier and protection to flashovers.

The other night one of my commands sector cars was flagged down for a room and contents fire at Elder & Watson,on the second floor of a 5 story building. I was about 5 blocks away when they put it over the radio. When I got there One engine was stretching a line, and the ladder was venting the fire floor. Additional companies were beginning their searches and checking for extension. Lets see a 3 man engine and 4 man ladder do it as quick, some how I think the fire would not have been knocked down as quick, since they would probably still be stretching the first line into the building. Those 3 and 4 man companies may manage a fire in a 1 story residential, but they are gonna need help, in conditions that FDNY faces daily, there is no way they will get the job done

[helicopper 1,050]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

So New York City should lower it's standards because other cities (none of whom are comparable to NYC in any objective measure) staff the apparatus with fewer FF?

If FDNY concedes this and drops a member on truck this year, what happens next year when the budget has a deficit? Do they then drop to four? And the year after that?

No good comes of compromises like that. Time and time again the politicians demonstrate that they have remarkably short and self-serving memories.

[Guest truck12345]

Would you rather lose 1 man per co.or lose 20 cos.

[helicopper 1,050]

I'd rather see neither happen. Either way the net gain is a loss and a strain on fireground operations. FDNY fought to achieve the staffing they have and they shouldn't reduce it voluntarily to satisfy a political agenda.

There is always community backlash about firehouse closures that helps their cause and I bet there would be no such outcry if the company stayed open but with reduced staffing. They won't be as effective or efficient but the community won't see that. I understand and support the position that neither is a viable option.

I'm surprised anyone in the fire service advocates voluntarily reducing staffing on apparatus.

[Guest truck12345]

what is the lesser of 2 evils 1 less man per co or 20 less co. Longer responce times bigger fires. In my opinion it would be easier for the 4 ff to pick up the slack the to have the co. closed and play catch up.

[Anesti 329]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

Bloomberg i didnt know you were a member of emtbravo.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I realize that but also if u close that many compaines u lose that many more officers chances of prom r limited. And alot of cities in NYS run with 3 and 4 man co. and the job still gets done fires r put out rescues made.

So can you back this up with actual data?

I know of a number of studies that show busy departments (more than 250,000 population) have higher injury rates as you drop below 5 men per company. Infact it shoes it is cheaper to have 5 man then 4 and 4 is cheaper than 3 when you factor the injury costs (which include medical cost, pension costs an OT for coverage).

So when you cut staffing, you save $ in the 1st few months, then it winds up costing more to provide less service.

what is the lesser of 2 evils 1 less man per co or 20 less co. Longer responce times bigger fires. In my opinion it would be easier for the 4 ff to pick up the slack the to have the co. closed and play catch up.

The NIST study showed that your opinion is wrong. that 5 man companies were so much more effecient than 4 (and 4 than 3) that even if response times are longer it was still more effective.

The bigger question that you fail to ask is can NYC afford to maintain the current service level? Since the Mayor said 4 times in a row, we need to cut cause we can not afford it and they found the money, one has to question his ability to manage the budget, not if they can afford it.

You only see 2 choices: 1) cut the number of companies or 2) cut the staffing per company.

I think that there is money behind door #3 and that is the 3rd choice, its about priorities and FDNY is not high on the Mayors list.

[SECTMB 612]

If you think its disconcerting now, wait until Bloomberg is gone. God help you all, providers and taxpayers alike.

[Guest truck12345]

yeah how many cities down state other than NYC run with 4 or men?

[antiquefirelt 994]

In my opinion it would be easier for the 4 ff to pick up the slack the to have the co. closed and play catch up.

Man that fourth guy must really have it easy now huh? You think he can be in two places at once?

[grumpyff 1,159]

yeah how many cities down state other than NYC run with 4 or men?

How many cities downstate have the fire load, and population density that NYC has. Ask New Rochelle or White Plains firefighters if they feel comfortable fighting a fire in one of the new highrises built in the last decade with a 3 or 4 man crew.

Edited May 15, 2012 by grumpyff

[newsbuff 286]

yeah how many cities down state other than NYC run with 4 or men?

Im sure they run with men. Some run with women too...

Spellcheck man, jeez.

[ny10570 745]

Fewer companies over short staffing any day. If it takes more companies to do the job it is still going to take longer to get the job done. At least with fewer companies it is more obvious to the average citizen what they're losing. People see fire trucks they assume the help is here. They don't understand that there aren't enough firefighters. When their firehouse closes they'll take notice.

[M' Ave 1,466]

yeah how many cities down state other than NYC run with 4 or men?

Sadly NONE! And this is much to the detriment of the public and the firefighters. No one else has 5 man trucks and everyone else wishes and should. What is your angle man? You don't seem to get it. You could close half the firehouses, but you'll never voluntarily get that staffing.....it's that important. If it takes us longer to get there, that's on the city's hands. I wouldn't volunteer the position that allows us to do our job effectively and safely.

Like I said, not my job to adequately cover the city, it IS our job to be the best unit when we get there.

A fire engine/truck is nothing more than a tool box. The men inside are the tools. What good is a big fancy tool box with no tools.....

Edited May 16, 2012 by M' Ave

[ny10570 745]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/nyregion/2013-nyc-budget-has-few-layoffs-and-no-tax-rise.html

...and once again firehouses are spared. No way is Christine Quinn going into this election with her number 1 supporter pissing off unions or the working class. Bloomberg for the past few years always said he wouldn't gamble his budget on uncertain finances. This year all of a sudden he's not averse to rolling the dice with the livery cab medallions and the economy.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Mind as well keep this thread fresh. While this is good news, we'll probably be doing this dance again next spring....or even in the winter if some of these funds don't materialize.

Stay tuned....

[mtnmedic 36]

As long as he keeps going after houses and not reduced staffing on each truck I think they will be safe. Closing houses is a hot political topic, and one that easily gains community opposition.

[EMT348 12]

Not to sound off topic here, but when I was driving home from Headquarters after doing my background investigation for EMS I was doing the math in my head for what it costs to be fingerprinted at Headquarters. It costs $91.50 to be fingerprinted there. Now multiply that by the amount of people who come in and get that done. There's something like 1450 people on my list.. That's over 132 thousand dollars. Where does this money go? Now think about the fire academy candidates and how many people go through it.. That's a lot of money. Enough to save more than a few jobs. It's over 2 million dollars.

[mtnmedic 36]

They only fingerprint people who are canvased, not the whole list, so your figures are not accurate. Also has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they pay an outside firm to run the background check and thus spend all the money that they collect? Even if they don't do anything with the money but collect it for the department's general fund the yearly budget is 1.6B, so basically what im trying to say is your $91 ain't s***.