Firehouse closures AGAIN

[ny10570 745]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/03/nyc-fire-union-looks-to-speaker-quinn-to-block-fdny-closures/

A few days ago the mayor released his fiscal plan for the next few years. In it he included $50 million budget cut for FDNY. The only way they're cutting $50 million is to close houses. For anyone watching the past few years this should sound familiar. He will soon begin ramping up the media support for firehouse closures. In 2 to 3 months a revised budget will come in with an unexpected surplus from increased revenues in yadda yadda yadda. He will still push for the cuts because they are necessary to maintain a balanced budget in the near future. Come June he will submit his budget including the company closures to the city council. A few weeks of political wrangling later, the city council will approve a budget with funding restored for the firehouses. Bloomy gets to come away looking tough on those fat cat firefighters and public servants while the damn liberals in the city council continues to undo his hard work.

I am sick of this BS. I'm tired of giving up sunny afternoons for another rally at city hall. I'm tired of sitting in on long boring city council meetings. I'm tired of e-mailing and calling legislators. Sadly for another year we must continue this fight. This is a war and we have to fight every battle. If you're a teacher, cop, EMT/medic, sanitation worker, transit employee, secretary, or any other city employee this story should sound painfully familiar. He is forecasting another substantial reduction in employees on the city payroll, so look for cuts everywhere. He is also forecasting Billion dollar deficits in the coming years and claims to have exhausted the city's rainy day fund. There will be more pain and it will be wide spread. Please get involved with your union. Its going to be an election year, step up and support your local's political action agenda.

Thank you for indulging my rant.

Edited February 4, 2012 by ny10570

[16fire5 693]

A few weeks of political wrangling later, the city council will approve a budget with funding restored for the firehouses.

While I share your frustration I think it is dangerous to believe that it will play out this ways just because it has in the past.

[ny10570 745]

It only plays out this way because of public and political pressure. Let me be clear, this is a very real threat that if bloomy gets his way will happen. If people do not step up to the fight these cuts will happen. The same is true for every agency facing cuts, however on this board I figured I'd get a better response talking about firehouses than about the library cuts and after school program reductions he is again floating out there.

[SECTMB 612]

Also this week it was reported that just with the four uniformed unions, annual pension costs will exceed annual salary costs. Then there was the highly reported case of the rubber room teacher who after ten years out of the classroom continues to collect 100K in salary on his way to an 85K a year pension for life.

There are 8 million people in NYC alone and only a couple of hundred thousand city, state workers. As long as the public continues to read stories of ex uniformed services employees collecting pensions twice the average annual income of private sector persons, some on disability pensions while competing in marathons, etc. and

stories that 3/4 of all train conductors get disability pensions, and rubber room stories galore, the public will not rally to the defense of the unions issues.

The public's attitude is going to be do more with less, just like we have to do. A four man engine crew will just have to do the same work as a five man crew, and so on. etc, etc.

The unions have been their own best and worst enemy. Particularly the teachers. We have continued to spend more and more every year on the schools and yet we produce more morons than ever before with lower graduation and test scores. With the schools in particular there is no correlation between more spending and better results.

In the case of the City, you can't blame Bloomberg. You need to go back to, at least, Lindsay and everyone, Mayors and Council members since and every head of every union that 'punted', 'kicked the can', etc. and failed to act responsibly. Same on all the other levels of Govt.

They didn't act responsibly so we've already reached the tipping point, we're on the downside now and there isn't anybody within these groups that has the knowledge, ability and leadership to change the direction of the slide. There are just too many selfish interests to accommodate and not enough public money left to do it.

[CFD320 35]

This is the result of us doing the same job with less:

[ny10570 745]

Everyone is so quick to blame teachers, but in EVERY STATE. Whether they be right to work or union states, they have the same problems. Charter schools are successful by limiting class size and/or selecting students. NYC's select admission high schools do phenomenally on a national level. These rubber room teachers and pension abuses pale in comparison to the losses as a result of CityTime, PSAC I and II, NYCWIN, and trasit communications. Then there are social initiatives like bicycle lanes, his million trees goal, and street scapes that while nice can wait until better financial environments.

These failures go back to Guliani. When before 9/11 and wall street was booming the pensions had big surpluses. These practices continued through the current administration. The employees don't have the option of withholding our contributions. The city did and now they're crying that they have to make up for their short sighted financial planning.

[M' Ave 1,466]

My firehouse was visited by the deputy and battalion in the past week, both said that the information from the recent chief's conference at HQ was that closures are off the table.

[Mac8146 61]

Hopefully closures off the table is true however, the firehouses have not been funded by the city for the last 2 or 3 years, the City Council has used it's funding to keep these units open. If the Council loses funding and with elections comming you may see funding disappear. Keeping something open in the district they serve may outway the firehouses. Remember Bloomie is done this time so he can stand back and let the people who will be up for re-election hash this out.

[ny10570 745]

M'ave see if you can get your hands on the fiscal outlook report the mayor just released. I'm on my mobile and can't link it. In the FDNY's budget while pension costs go up, there's a sudden drop in 2013 of about $50 million. I don't see any other way of saving that much.

[SECTMB 612]

This is the result of us doing the same job with less:

I don't disagree that this may in fact be the result of trying to do more with less. It's just the new reality.

[SECTMB 612]

Everyone is so quick to blame teachers, but in EVERY STATE. Whether they be right to work or union states, they have the same problems. Charter schools are successful by limiting class size and/or selecting students. NYC's select admission high schools do phenomenally on a national level. These rubber room teachers and pension abuses pale in comparison to the losses as a result of CityTime, PSAC I and II, NYCWIN, and trasit communications. Then there are social initiatives like bicycle lanes, his million trees goal, and street scapes that while nice can wait until better financial environments.

These failures go back to Guliani. When before 9/11 and wall street was booming the pensions had big surpluses. These practices continued through the current administration. The employees don't have the option of withholding our contributions. The city did and now they're crying that they have to make up for their short sighted financial planning.

Again, I don't disagree with your added points. However, the results speak for themselves. More $ into the school system does not relate to better student performance. Wasted money whether in CityTime, the others or the BOE is still wasted money. But, that's what politicians do best, waste money. And, the unions spend too much time protecting bad members and antiquated work rules.

[ny10570 745]

Unions are there to protect the process. They defend the POS so that there is a process in place to ensure punishments are merited and fair. It is no different than why even the guiltiest cop shooting animal gets his day in court with a lawyer.

As for work rules, they're negotiable with every contract. As long as the city is willing to give us something fair in return. The city gives up nothing for free. Everything has to be fought for.

Edited February 4, 2012 by ny10570

[E58RET 24]

Also this week it was reported that just with the four uniformed unions, annual pension costs will exceed annual salary costs. Then there was the highly reported case of the rubber room teacher who after ten years out of the classroom continues to collect 100K in salary on his way to an 85K a year pension for life.

There are 8 million people in NYC alone and only a couple of hundred thousand city, state workers. As long as the public continues to read stories of ex uniformed services employees collecting pensions twice the average annual income of private sector persons, some on disability pensions while competing in marathons, etc. and

stories that 3/4 of all train conductors get disability pensions, and rubber room stories galore, the public will not rally to the defense of the unions issues.

The public's attitude is going to be do more with less, just like we have to do. A four man engine crew will just have to do the same work as a five man crew, and so on. etc, etc.

The unions have been their own best and worst enemy. Particularly the teachers. We have continued to spend more and more every year on the schools and yet we produce more morons than ever before with lower graduation and test scores. With the schools in particular there is no correlation between more spending and better results.

In the case of the City, you can't blame Bloomberg. You need to go back to, at least, Lindsay and everyone, Mayors and Council members since and every head of every union that 'punted', 'kicked the can', etc. and failed to act responsibly. Same on all the other levels of Govt.

They didn't act responsibly so we've already reached the tipping point, we're on the downside now and there isn't anybody within these groups that has the knowledge, ability and leadership to change the direction of the slide. There are just too many selfish interests to accommodate and not enough public money left to do it.

[gamewell45 258]

And, the unions spend too much time protecting bad members and antiquated work rules.

Union's have a legal obligation to represent their members; the member pay dues and for the union to fail to do so could result in a charge filed with the NLRB or PERB as the case may be and additionally they could be sued for failure to represent, so they have to represent them whether or not they are "good" employees.

Keep in mind that while in any job there might be sub-par employees, the union doesn't hire them, rather administrators and/or management hire them and if they are not "good" employees, its an indication that whoever hired them didn't do their job properly. So the blame should not rest upon the union, although the public in ignorance tends to blame everything from economic destruction to bad weather on unions. If management did their job right in the first place, in most cases you wouldn't have poor performing employees.

Work rules were put into place for a reason; in many cases due to safety concerns. Most unions recognize that in some cases they do become antiquated and need to be adjusted. Many companies, in response to either the market conditions or in the case of public employees, need to balance the budget and its not uncommon for the administration to make a claim of work rules that are too restrictive, but what it really comes down to is that they want the employees to do more with less and in many cases, it could place lives in jeopardy.

Edited February 5, 2012 by gamewell45

[M' Ave 1,466]

I don't disagree that this may in fact be the result of trying to do more with less. It's just the new reality.

Bulls*&t. I don't anyone (especially those who could find themselves in this position on any given day) who'll accept this as the new reality. I don't want to do more with less. I want to do what's necessary with the appropriate resources. I'm getting tired of this fight every spring. Firehouse closures....pensions ruining our economy...B.S!

Why are pension contributions up? Because of dwindling returns on the city's investments. Well....they should have planned better for a downturn in the market. Perhaps they shouldn't have said, "we're doing so well on our returns we can skip our annual contributions". I never got to skip my contributions. My pension didn't get any better when they were making money hand over fist in the market. They want it both ways. Make money with our money when times are good and take more money from us when times are bad. They made bad bets and now the public has to buck-up in the form of more tax dollars to pension payments. They mismanaged money and want to blame unions and pensions for teacher lay-offs and firehouse closings.

They made agreements with the unions that they could afford. They played fast and loose in the open market and took a beating. We didn't benefit when they were up, so why should we pay when they're down.

Wouldn't it be nice to see politicians take the blame for their mistakes? Guess that'll be the day....

[grumpyff 1,159]

4 BILLION DOLLARS.

That is the amount the City of New York made off the pension funds of the Police and Fire Departments invested in equity securities from 1996 to 2011. No money has been added to this fund since at least 1996, has paid out from only from invested assets. Where did the city blow 4 Billion Dollars during those years? The city can spend this money on anything they deem fit, with no oversight from either union that funded this. Certainly not on pay raises or increased benefits. When times were good on Wall Street, the city continually cried "we have no money for raises". Plenty of waste by the city, but it is our pensions that are causing the economic problems of the city, I say "BULLS$%T".

Here is a link to the NYC PBA website with an article about the variable supplement, or as Bloomberg called it "A Christmas Bonus" Paid for by our own money. NYCPBA Magazine

Edited February 5, 2012 by grumpyff

[ny10570 745]

Here we go. Phase 2 the threat of closures and cuts. Next up comes the sudden surplus that saves the libraries and child care programs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/03/newyork-budget-idUSL1E8G3EVP20120503

Brooklyn Councilman Charles Barron saw the coming negotiations as a repeat of past showdowns. “It’s still the same nonsense every year,” he said. ”It’s on the City Council to say no to this budget and make him do what he should be doing with the money.”

While the mayor has proposed a balanced budget for the upcoming fiscal year, the administration is projecting a $3 billion deficit in the following fiscal year beginning July 1, 2013. After that, the forecast projects a $3.7 billion gap followed by a $3.2 billion hole

[Guest truck12345]

What about the 800million dollar coast overrun on their new dispatch system which I have read is still not working properly or hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on the cities empolyee time check. The unions and the citizens should pound the mayor on those failed projects.

[EMT348 12]

Any idea which houses are in danger of being closed? And if infact they do get closed, where does the personnel go from these closures? I mean, obviously filling holes in other houses... But at some point I'm sure there wont be any holes to fill, right? Just curious. I pray it doesn't come to this.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Any idea which houses are in danger of being closed? And if infact they do get closed, where does the personnel go from these closures? I mean, obviously filling holes in other houses... But at some point I'm sure there wont be any holes to fill, right? Just curious. I pray it doesn't come to this.

At this point, we dont know if any companies will be closed. We're working with the city council to make sure that they budget the money for those companies for a 4th straight year. There is a list of proposed companies, it is the same as last year. 16 engines and 4 ladders.

If this miserable scenario should come to pass, the members assigned to those companies would be sent to other companies to fill holes, as you said. Right now, thanks to the selfishness of the Vulcan Society, there are many more hole than could be filled.

[EMT348 12]

Very sad. I have friends and family on the job and I would hate to see any of them lose their careers and the ability to take care of their families all because a bunch of the city head honchos won't take a small pay cut to float the damn budget. It's a crying shame, and highway robbery in my opinion.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Very sad. I have friends and family on the job and I would hate to see any of them lose their careers and the ability to take care of their families all because a bunch of the city head honchos won't take a small pay cut to float the damn budget. It's a crying shame, and highway robbery in my opinion.

Well, luckily no one is going to lose there job, as we are under head-count at this time. However, it would represent a tremendous blow to our ability to continue to provide service at the level it's being provided now. Response times would go up as unit availability drops. Some units slated for closure respond to over 4,000 runs a year. Those will all need to be picked up by surrounding units who are already doing 3 and 4 thousand runs themselves. In other cases, such as Ladder 53, they do not have a lot of responses, but the next closest truck is almost 10 minutes away. That next unit could easily be on another run which would result in a response time of 15+ minutes to City Island.

This is a battle that the NYC residents should take up and fight for dearly as it will impact the service they pay for in a dramatic way.

[Guest truck12345]

Has the city asked a reduction in man power per rig.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I dont think the city asked when they took the 5th man from those engine companies...

[Guest truck12345]

So is that 1 officer 3 ff.

Is staffing levels in their contract?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

So is that 1 officer 3 ff.

No, its 4 firefighters and 1 officer on all 194 FDNY engine companies. In January, the 60 engine companies assigned an extra man (a fifth firefighter) had that firefighter removed due to the overtime it was costing the city.

Is staffing levels in their contract?

yes, minimum staffing is in their contact, a contact that expired mind you on the same day they pulled the 5th man...

[ny10570 745]

The city is arguing the 5th man was a separate agreement from the collective bargaining agreement.

[grumpyff 1,159]

yes, minimum staffing is in their contact, a contact that expired mind you on the same day they pulled the 5th man...

For all the people that talk about removing the Triborough Amendment that enforces provisions of the expired contract in place, this is one of the reasons to keep it in place. Could imagine what Bloomberg would do...1 man companies...it works in other places his studies would point out.

[Guest truck12345]

they paid ot for a 5th ff?

[M' Ave 1,466]

Has the city asked a reduction in man power per rig.

No, they have not and this would be an issue of far greater concern to us as firemen.

they paid ot for a 5th ff?

No, that was not an O/T spot, it was a regular spot in 60 engines. However that was 60 more bodies the city needed each tour.