FDNY Commish Orders Aviation VFD to Cease Operating

[jack10562 414]

The name FASNY is being improperly tossed around like it's some kind of sanctioning body or clearing house, that membership equals approval to operate at incidents. This they're not. FASNY is an organization that was formed to advocate for the betterment of the volunteer fire service and it's members.

FASNY and FDNY really have nothing to do with each other on any level, and it's not because of any kind of animosity, it's because FDNY members are represented by their own professional firefighter union affiliations.

Avaition and it's members may or may not belong to FASNY, and either way, if they're not sanctioned, contracted or authorized to respond within the jurisdiction of the city, they have no choice but to stay out of the way.

[gamewell45 258]

And I could very well be wrong, as the information that I was told was secondhand. A few people that I have spoken to, who are members of FASNY and attend meetings, usually complain about the City, or just the IAFF, UFA, etc. are always against them in terms of key issues. (see: Training)

Again, I could be wrong.

Ok they might just be voicing their opinions as individuals.

[helicopper 1,050]

Can you back this up with anything? Even if that were the case, it would seem logical that the state would retain some sort of control. So far everyone has seen fit to bash, but has anyone actually checked on their claim that they are a legit orgainzation???

Back what up? That the municipality is responsible for the fire service? I'm pretty sure that comes from state law (Town, Village, etc.) and according to someone I know at OFPC, they don't "approve" FD's.

[nycemt728 49]

Back what up? That the municipality is responsible for the fire service? I'm pretty sure that comes from state law (Town, Village, etc.) and according to someone I know at OFPC, they don't "approve" FD's.

Back up that FDNY has total control and not the state. I realize they are responsible, but I'm trying to get at what specifically their powers are. Can they call the cops? Yes, but can they shut down a legit organization? IDK. Hell could they even shut down a non legit one. I'm not saying either side is wrong, I just want to know what the proper way of going about this is.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I saw them on the Bronx River Parkway when I was headed to the Triborough to The Airport don't think they were Reponding though just riding Northbound on the BRP

& this Fire Patrol you speak of could it be this ? http://www.facebook.com/pages/Independence-Volunteer-Fire-Co-4-Bronx-Volunteer-Fire-Patrol/246739438669464\ I've seen these guys all around Soundview with hats and I saw like 4 of them in A Black ford Pickup truck # teens and 1 large man and they had t-shirts on that said Independence Volunteer Fire Co. #4

http://www.nassaufdrant.com/forum/bronx-volunteer-fire-patrol-13164.html

[JJB531 652]

Back up that FDNY has total control and not the state. I realize they are responsible, but I'm trying to get at what specifically their powers are. Can they call the cops? Yes, but can they shut down a legit organization? IDK. Hell could they even shut down a non legit one. I'm not saying either side is wrong, I just want to know what the proper way of going about this is.

Being that the City of New York/FDNY is the AHJ, and the FDNY is the City entity that provides Fire Protection for the City of New York, the FDNY Commissioner acting as an agent of the Mayor and the City can probably regulate Fire Services in NYC. His regulatory powers are vested by the City as a City employee of the municipal Fire Service which oversees Fire Protection. He may not be able to shut them down, but he can sure authorize or unauthorize them to respond to jobs within the confines of the 5 boroughs.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

JBE, the ALF rig was refurbished after WTC. Then they lost the building they were in and all the equipment sat outside. They had two other trucks also, a donated E-One and a new Luverne(?) that was purchased for them. Those two went bye-bye during the scandal when all the money went too.

PCFD ENG 58 I believe had something to do with getting that rig up to Andy's place upstate. He can let us know more on the rig I believe.

The 1980 XFDNY Amercain Lafrance From the closed down Aviation [2009?] was giving to the Catskill Fire Cats. We have it in the warehouse and show it at events. it was reparied after the 9/11 event and was left outside after that. the 2001[new] Luverne that was donaited by a wall street company was sold to Beech Island South Carolina for profit and the E-ONE[used] that was donated to Aviation by Franconia VFD in Va was also sold for profit to Brindlee Fire Appartus witch sold it to Banid IL Fire Dept. All of this was post 9/11 and they took advantage of a lot of good people and companys that wanted to help New York City and there people. What a disgrace !

Edited January 27, 2012 by PCFD ENG58

[pasobuff 38]

Although I don't see Aviation (currently) as having an FDID - the LODD from 1995 IS on the Fallen Firefighters' Memorial Wall in Albany.....

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The 1980 XFDNY Amercain Lafrance From the closed down Aviation [2009?] was giving to the Catskill Fire Cats. We have it in the warehouse and show it at events. it was reparied after the 9/11 and was left outside after that. the 2001[new] Luverne that was donaited by a wall street company was sold to Beech Island South Carolina for profit and the E-ONE[used] that was donated to Avition by Franconia VFD in Va was also sold for profit to Brindlee Fire Appartus witch sold it to Banid IL Fire Dept. All of this was post 9/11 and they took advantage of a lot of good people and companys that wanted to help New York City and there people. What a disgrace !

If that is true then what happened to all of that money?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

If that is true then what happened to all of that money?

True,what are you saying son ?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

John Pache v. Aviation Vol. Fire Company

[nycemt728 49]

So, the Apellate Division ruled that there was an implied contract between the municipality/FDNY and Aviation. It would seem to me that implied contract would still apply unless the FDNY Commisioner takes some action to cancel it (not simply say they are improperly trained) or gets the court to supercede the previous decision of the AD case...

[dillondotcom 16]

nycemt728..I dont think it would still apply. The company disbanded and was no longer an orginazation. As far as seeing any of their credentials, they refuse to work with any office in the 3rd batt. or the 6th division to show their charter or any paper work showing they are ligit.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

nycemt728..I dont think it would still apply. The company disbanded and was no longer an orginazation. As far as seeing any of their credentials, they refuse to work with any office in the 3rd batt. or the 6th division to show their charter or any paper work showing they are ligit.

I would venture to say the same as you brother. Its as simple as having to show that you are meeting at least the minimum standard to start. If you want to be resistant..hey whatever flips your boat..but for every action there's an opposite and equal reaction. Bottom line is there are others who will make sure you are not putting yourself nor others at risk.

[helicopper 1,050]

Back up that FDNY has total control and not the state. I realize they are responsible, but I'm trying to get at what specifically their powers are. Can they call the cops? Yes, but can they shut down a legit organization? IDK. Hell could they even shut down a non legit one. I'm not saying either side is wrong, I just want to know what the proper way of going about this is.

Being that the City of New York/FDNY is the AHJ, and the FDNY is the City entity that provides Fire Protection for the City of New York, the FDNY Commissioner acting as an agent of the Mayor and the City can probably regulate Fire Services in NYC. His regulatory powers are vested by the City as a City employee of the municipal Fire Service which oversees Fire Protection. He may not be able to shut them down, but he can sure authorize or unauthorize them to respond to jobs within the confines of the 5 boroughs.

JJB531 pretty much sums it up. My point was the municipality is the final authority on the provision of emergency services within their borders to if the City says thank you but we're not interested, they are not going to be part of the city response and will not have the implied contract that protected them in the past.

The "chief" of Aviation says that he will only respond to an order from the Mayor or the OFPC. My point is that the Fire Commissioner is an agent of the Mayor and his order probably carries the same amount of weight legally. After all, city health inspectors, code enforcement officers, fire and PD officials close down unsafe or illegal facilities all the time on the City's behalf.

OFPC is not the AHJ over an FD so the reliance on them to intervene is probably misplaced too.

If the FDNY Commissioner notifies the Aviation FD or whatever its called this week that it's services are no longer required, they probably will have a hard time proving a contract in the future.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Yes EPVFD is still around and active. It covers its own area and is quite useful as the streets are incredibly narrow, many FDNY apparatuses ambulances and engines alike have gotten stuck on the streets.

Now, with regards to Aviation. I agree, they've had a bunch of problems over the years. Do they need a new administration or some oversight? ABSELUTELY!! Personally, I never say a bad word against those who volunteer. If they want to help their community, let them. Ofcourse you need to play by the rules. FDNY needs to once again remember that vollys do exist in NYC (legally) and it needs to play with them...enough of the strong arming! Now, if Aviation is not properly trained or compliant or w/e the Commish is claiming, he needs to take it up w/ w/e agencie(s) certify or allow fire dept's in NYS to exist....it is not the FDNY's job to enforce anything. Both agencies exist to help people, not get into pissing matches. If Aviation wants to restore their image and do their job, they need to make damn sure they do it right. If FDNY wants to look good, they need to focus on their job and figure out a way to co-exist peacefully.

Hold on....lets get a few things straight here. "Joe Samaritan" doesn't get to go start his own fire company because he wants to do good. It doesn't work that way. The City of New York is protected by the FDNY from fire and emergencies. The FDNY is also charged with enforcing fire and building codes. Additionally, FDNY and it's personnel have the ability to enforce and issue summons for a slew of other infractions. Every FDNY apparatus has multiple summons books. Sounds like we're a long way away from "...it's not the FDNY's job to enforce anything".

Aviation VFC is a band of freelancing buffs. They're not needed and they're not helping anyone. One of the FDNY's greatest assets is staffing, assignment of standardized riding positions and response matrix, all of which give us the ability to work efficiently and safely at any fire. We as firemen know what our specific task is and chief officers know who's supposed to be where. It's a highly coordinated effort and the last thing that anyone needs is a rig no one expected taking a hydrant, blocking out trucks and stretching a line that could end up opposite ours. I don't care what their intentions are, their behavior is wrong and they're going to get someone hurt.

As for training, all I've heard is talk of FF1 or Essentials, ect. Those courses do little more than scratch the surface, they're not a bench mark. An FDNY Proby receives about 1,000 hours of intense training before graduating and being assigned to a field unit. After that, he will respond, on average, to anywhere from 600 - 1,500 alarms a year while on duty. Please, tell me how Aviation is going to achieve training on that level.

The Fire Commissioner of NYC has called for them to cease operations. He's the final say on all things fire in New York City, who are they to thumb their nose at that? If they are found to be operating in some claimed official capacity it should be handled in a legal manner.

Edited January 28, 2012 by M' Ave

[ex-commish 490]

The Fire Commissioner of NYC has called for them to cease operations. He's the final say on all things fire in New York City, who are they to thumb their nose at that?

And so he should as in any other jurisdiction.

[v85 212]

Anyone who thinks that there is no problem with this department operating needs only to look at the photo page on here.

Their "fire engine" is older than I am, and carries NO HOSE other than a booster reel. Would you want that showing up on your scene?

I think NYPD Highway would have a field day with those rigs.

[Guest USAFvet]

How are they even funded? The rigs and all the needed gear is very expensive. Besides, the huge insurance cost, etc,

What FDNY chief would even put them to work? Then again, they are not even authorized to be at the call or fire ground.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Hold on....lets get a few things straight here. "Joe Samaritan" doesn't get to go start his own fire company because he wants to do good. It doesn't work that way. The City of New York is protected by the FDNY from fire and emergencies. The FDNY is also charged with enforcing fire and building codes. Additionally, FDNY and it's personnel have the ability to enforce and issue summons for a slew of other infractions. Every FDNY apparatus has multiple summons books. Sounds like we're a long way away from "...it's not the FDNY's job to enforce anything".

Aviation VFC is a band of freelancing buffs. They're not needed and they're not helping anyone. One of the FDNY's greatest assets is staffing, assignment of standardized riding positions and response matrix, all of which give us the ability to work efficiently and safely at any fire. We as firemen know what our specific task is and chief officers know who's supposed to be where. It's a highly coordinated effort and the last thing that anyone needs is a rig no one expected taking a hydrant, blocking out trucks and stretching a line that could end up opposite ours. I don't care what their intentions are, their behavior is wrong and they're going to get someone hurt.

As for training, all I've heard is talk of FF1 or Essentials, ect. Those courses do little more than scratch the surface, they're not a bench mark. An FDNY Proby receives about 1,000 hours of intense training before graduating and being assigned to a field unit. After that, he will respond, on average, to anywhere from 600 - 1,500 alarms a year while on duty. Please, tell me how Aviation is going to achieve training on that level.

The Fire Commissioner of NYC has called for them to cease operations. He's the final say on all things fire in New York City, who are they to thumb their nose at that? If they are found to be operating in some claimed official capacity it should be handled in a legal manner.

Couldn't agree with your post more. Just to clarify, I for one am not saying that FF 1 is remotely adequate. All I'm saying is, that at the minimum level it complies with OSHA's fire brigade standard. From what I understand it does not meet the haz mat requirement by hours. Do I feel it has enough content...yes...in fact it gives more than what many states follow for their awareness level they give. I doubt they can even provide proof of that.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Couldn't agree with your post more. Just to clarify, I for one am not saying that FF 1 is remotely adequate. All I'm saying is, that at the minimum level it complies with OSHA's fire brigade standard. From what I understand it does not meet the haz mat requirement by hours. Do I feel it has enough content...yes...in fact it gives more than what many states follow for their awareness level they give. I doubt they can even provide proof of that.

To clarify in return; I completely agree with your post as well. I was in no way looking to belittle FF1 or FF2 ect. I took them and a great deal more of the State Curriculum. Well designed and much comprehensive than Essentials was. I used FF1 as an example because all I've read with regard to Aviation's training is, "I've seen them in FF1 before". That's a spot on beginning to fire training, but I wouldn't call a department full of FF1 certificate holders adequate. Really though, from the sound of things, that group would probably have a difficult time showing even that amount of training. I've seen these guys at incidents closing streets and directing traffic near me and I'm no where near the Clason Point area. Any time a guy from this job goes to confront them, they hop in their SUV and drive off. I haven't worked in Soundview or Castle Hill recently, but I'm sure I will and I'll have to inquire about them with the units that are 1st due in that area.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

To clarify in return; I completely agree with your post as well. I was in no way looking to belittle FF1 or FF2 ect. I took them and a great deal more of the State Curriculum. Well designed and much comprehensive than Essentials was. I used FF1 as an example because all I've read with regard to Aviation's training is, "I've seen them in FF1 before". That's a spot on beginning to fire training, but I wouldn't call a department full of FF1 certificate holders adequate. Really though, from the sound of things, that group would probably have a difficult time showing even that amount of training. I've seen these guys at incidents closing streets and directing traffic near me and I'm no where near the Clason Point area. Any time a guy from this job goes to confront them, they hop in their SUV and drive off. I haven't worked in Soundview or Castle Hill recently, but I'm sure I will and I'll have to inquire about them with the units that are 1st due in that area.

Like I said..same page brother. Couldn't agree with you more.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I can't believe no members of the Aviation Bronx Fire Patrol have come here to defend themselves and their so called department. You know they're members here.

So guys, what's the deal? Are you and FD or JB (just buffs)?

[PEMO3 523]

Just curious where this will leave NYC's other 9 VFDs. I am in no way saying that they are of the same level as Aviation or that they have done anything wrong, just wondering how this will effect the FDNY - VFD relations as things move forward on the legal end of things.

1. Gerritsen Beach VFD, Brooklyn
2. Edgewater Park Volunteer Hose Co #1, Bronx
3. West Hamilton Beach VFD, Queens
4. Broad Channel VFD, Queens
5. Point Breeze VFD, Queens
6. Rockaway Point VFD, Queens
7. Roxbury VFD, Queens
8. Richmond Engine Company, Staten Island
9. Oceanic Hook & Ladder Company, Staten Island

[ny10570 745]

This should have no bearing on the other VFDs. This essentially a group of people who decided to start responding and picked up an old discarded dept name. This is would be comparable to the White Plains FD Volunteer company buying an engine and suddenly responding to alarms. Aviation was disbanded. The other 9 VFDs chartered or not, are all operating in the same way they have been for years and this should have no impact. However if Aviation's actions were to directly result in the death or serious injury of a civilian or firefighter this will absolutely bring greater scrutiny upon all of the volunteers and their operations.

[antiquefirelt 994]

While I understand the whole recognized, trained VFD vs. what it appears Aviation has become, I'd still think the FDNY Commissioner would have grave concerns with any FD responding first due to an area FDNY covers. Unless they're constantly drilling together and a are truly interoperable, I'd think they're really just in the way. Not that a VFD can't operate in a professional manner, but when you're procedures are as exacting as FDNY, having to worry about what's been done before your pretty timely arrival would seem to complicate matters? If I'm a taxpayer paying for the FDNY, I would want FDNY service without someone coming in first and potentially changing the rules of the game...Or are these other VFD's just that good?

[M' Ave 1,466]

While I understand the whole recognized, trained VFD vs. what it appears Aviation has become, I'd still think the FDNY Commissioner would have grave concerns with any FD responding first due to an area FDNY covers. Unless they're constantly drilling together and a are truly interoperable, I'd think they're really just in the way. Not that a VFD can't operate in a professional manner, but when you're procedures are as exacting as FDNY, having to worry about what's been done before your pretty timely arrival would seem to complicate matters? If I'm a taxpayer paying for the FDNY, I would want FDNY service without someone coming in first and potentially changing the rules of the game...Or are these other VFD's just that good?

I rarely run into any of these agencies, so my knowledge isn't as in depth as someone who works on Cross-Bay Blvd. or Throggs Neck. Some of these agencies serve private, Co-Op developments, such as Edgewater and Point Breeze. They have equipment that allows them to navigate tight streets. Often, they simply assist the FDNY in getting water to the fire, but what they provide is simply a service to a private community that is very specific in it's needs. As for the two units in Staten Island; Richmond Engine is 1 mile from E165 L85 and E162 L82. Oceanic Hose is half a mile from E 154 and a mile from E166 L86. I'm sure they're not beating any of those companies in unless they happen to have a crew hanging around the firehouse. I don't know how active they REALLY are, but we share a frequency with Staten Island and I occasionally hear the SI Dispatch calling them and they rarely answer. The neighborhoods they serve are very residential and remote. They have a real small town in a big city feel. The volunteer fire service has always been a cornerstone of small town life and the community. I'm sure this keeps it relevant, despite being covered by FDNY units. I have never heard of any real issues between them.

[gamewell45 258]

I can't believe no members of the Aviation Bronx Fire Patrol have come here to defend themselves and their so called department. You know they're members here.

So guys, what's the deal? Are you and FD or JB (just buffs)?

Would you stick your hand into a nest of agitated ants?

[M' Ave 1,466]

Would you stick your hand into a nest of agitated ants?

If I had good information to help dispel myth, yes. We really need to remember that we're not dealing with a Fire Department here. We don't really know what we're dealing with. All we know is that there is some guy named Romero who's 28 and calls himself "chief" and says he has 60 active qualified members. There's no firehouse, only an office with a phone number that no one answers. There are a few pieces of apparatus, but no equipment. These are guys who show up at emergency scenes and operate, but don't belong. If you check, I'm sure you won't find that this happens with Edgewater, ect. They have an organization with a command structure of some sort, ect. Aviation does not exist, they had trouble years ago and went out of service permanently. This is a few people who've resurrected a name only.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Wasn't this Romeo Toro the same guy who was a former member of Vallhala FD and arrested for stealing equipment? Didn't he take a plea bargain of 3 years probation on a misdemeanor charge?

Edited January 31, 2012 by IzzyEng4