FDNY Commish Orders Aviation VFD to Cease Operating

[10512 214]

This is not about FDNY and volunteers. This is about Aviation and only Aviation. After 9/11 the shut down. They stopped responding and dissolved their membership. A few members got together and created some "emergency response" group that other than buffing fires and posting on FB have no official recognition or affiliation. This group then suddenly and on their own have reestablished Aviation. Would any dept allow a group of residents to purchase a vehicle and start responding within their district? This isn't the FDNY stepping on volleys, this is a bunch of people deciding one day they want to start buffing jobs and operating.

AFD does not stay in their own neighborhood, I have seen them all over the East Bronx, from top to bottom, in the South Bronx, and I have seen them up on the Hutch by the Westchester line, they just hop in their rig and ride around the Bronx, buffing jobs.

I heard from several people, that when AFD shut down after 9/11, it seems a couple of them banded together and formed the "Volunteer Bronx Fire Patrol". They would ride around and buff jobs in an privately registered SUV (not any volley rig, but a personal car)) that had flashing lights and cheap stickers marking it as the "Bronx Volunteer Fire Patrol". I encountered two of them at a vehicle accident, maybe five years ago or so- ( I am NYPD and was operating at the accident) and, never having heard of the "Bronx Fire Patrol" ( I am also a former member of the New York Fire Patrol,) so l wondered who they were. They got out of the rig, and without asking the NYPD or FDNY what was happening, they just started directing traffic. The did this without asking NYPD or FDNY, or even telling us so that we might coordinate efforts. I asked them a couple of simple questions, like "who are you guys-who sent you here? and I received no satifactory answer, other than ...."Uhh"..."who" "what"...."daba daba"... and related comments. I went over to a Battalion aide and asked if he knew who they were, he said he had seen them at jobs before, but did not know who they were. With that, it seemed that as soon as I turned my back, they hopped into their SUV and left the scene before I could ask any more questions.. I said to myself that the next time I saw them, I would make it so that they would receive many summones (or arrest) and impound the car. I was transferred shortly after that to another assignment that took me out of the area, I regret not taking the time out that day to go track down the SUV and put it on paper.

Edited January 26, 2012 by 10512

[batt. 12 12]

I don't see what they would even charge these volunteer FF's with. If the Fire Truck is complies with all regs and is registered. There with be nothing that they can do, and the only thing they can do is a freelancing charge. Which is just a please leave. Even then they don't have to do that, cause it can fall under the good samaritan Act.

[10512 214]

The incident I had did not involve any Fire Truck, it involved a private vehicle that some former Volunteers put stickers and lights on and started riding around with a scanner. The good samaritan act may apply if you are the only one available to help, such as walking down the street and seeing someone having a heart attack and no one else is around, but if there are trained personnel already on the scene, then just showing up and starting to operate at the scene without any authority or coordination could easily fall under "obstructing governmental adminstration". The directing of traffic, when police and FD are already on the scene and not asking for help, could also violate disorderly conduct, and a host of VTL violations, such as, who authorized the blue lights. I am sure that a few minutes with the NY Penal Law and a copy of the VTL, I could come up with others.

The fact that they "fled" when police started asking questions, leads me to believe that that they would have a hard time justifing anything they did.

Edited January 26, 2012 by 10512

[JBE 328]

Oh, so this is that volunteer Fire Patrol that decided to take a step into the big time. I remember getting phone calls when I was a boss in the Bronx about these jokers. We were told to notify the marshals if we had any issues with them showing up at scenes. I did happen to notice them toodling around in the SUV one afternoon by the old Chateau De Blue Eyes. 238th and Bailey, a bit of a distance from Clasons Point.

[FDNYBuff97 5]

I saw them on the Bronx River Parkway when I was headed to the Triborough to The Airport don't think they were Reponding though just riding Northbound on the BRP

& this Fire Patrol you speak of could it be this ? http://www.facebook.com/pages/Independence-Volunteer-Fire-Co-4-Bronx-Volunteer-Fire-Patrol/246739438669464\ I've seen these guys all around Soundview with hats and I saw like 4 of them in A Black ford Pickup truck # teens and 1 large man and they had t-shirts on that said Independence Volunteer Fire Co. #4

[FFPCogs 863]

For some reason, some people put a lot of weight on "In house Training" like drills. As a volunteer fire captain, I dont see how we can. It simply isnt the same as state training lead by a certified state fire instructor.

To me, training is two parts; State Fire Training, than supplement with station drills taught by competent officers and assisted by trained experienced firefighters. Some departments have no clue how a drill should be, Ive seen departments say that a control burn is a drill yet they only stood around and watched it to make sure it didnt spread. Thats not a drill, maybe for the pump operator who had to secure a water source and charge a line but not for interior firefighters. Than there is the departments who sit around the station all night BS'ing and doing nothing but getting away from the home front for a while, than they sign a drill sheet that SAYS they did a drill of some sort for 3 hours...how can a departments drill habbits be properly accounted for?? In the career sector there is no doubt, no questioning because its mandated and properly accounted for annually.

Thats why a lot of people are having a hard time seeing the training of volunteers as beeing sufficient...its not. Im a volunteer and I say its not. And to add to this this department isnt even a ligitimately operating fire department, they are not on anyones radar including OFPC as being listed in NY State as a fire department, so how do they get the insurance for their members?? If one of them gets hurt, are they covered?? They are not even dispatched at all by a 911 dispatch center?? There is too much that screams wrong here to me, they need to be investigated and someone needs to intervene here and put an end to this madness.

Let me begin by stating that I know very little about the Aviation VFD and I will have to take the word of those on here who do in regards to their issues. That said and sorry to divert too far away from the topic at hand, but this particular post caught my attention and I would like to respond to it.

I must respectfully disagree with the assesment that training in the volunteer sector is not "sufficient". I know of many VFDs that have excellent training programs, run by experienced, knowledgeable and dedicated training officers and members that produce superb firefighters...and this I know because I am one of those training officers. Blanket statements rarely if ever tell the whole story, in fact the usually do more harm than good. Are there VFDs that provide substandard training? Yes of course there are, and guess what there are career departments guilty of the same offense...and if anyone actually believes volunteers have a monopoly on pencil whipping training reports, who is it that's being naive? So while it may be true in many States that career FFs are required to meet standards which are often more stringent than their volunteer counterparts, (which indeed does usually lead to better trained, but not necessarily more experienced FFs), it does not by any means mean that volunteers are, as a rule, un or insufficiently trained.

Another point on which I hold a different view is that of the place of State training. For me I think State training should supplement in house training, not the other way around. Yes all FFs should go and fill their heads with all the requisite knowledge certification classes offer, but once done it should become the responsibility of the FD and the members themselves to train regularly in house to meet the needs of their community...and that just can't be accomplished at a State level. No State academy or curriculum can tailor training for each jurisdiction, so until such time as there are universal SOP/Gs and such, the bulk of training must happen in house and be built around how your FD operates. State classes taught by certified instructors is a wonderful and necessary tool in producing great FFs, but IMO it is just that a tool, not a crutch or substitute for real world department based training.

Stay Safe

Cogs

Edited January 26, 2012 by FFPCogs

[Guest fire42rescue]

well if these guys arent trained properly and being disrespectful and etc.... the city is actually right about closing them and the article i never knew about with the whole situation with them about the 11th and the money situation is just stupid now from looking at what everyone is saying is that these group of vollies is a discrace. sorry everyone i read some of the articles about them wrong.

[10512 214]

I saw them on the Bronx River Parkway when I was headed to the Triborough to The Airport don't think they were Reponding though just riding Northbound on the BRP

& this Fire Patrol you speak of could it be this ? http://www.facebook....246739438669464\ I've seen these guys all around Soundview with hats and I saw like 4 of them in A Black ford Pickup truck # teens and 1 large man and they had t-shirts on that said Independence Volunteer Fire Co. #4

If I recall, when I last saw them, they were calling themselves Bronx Fire Patrol # 4, now you say you saw them as Indepenence Volunteer fire Co. # 4. Let's see, we go from Aviation fire, to Bronx Fire Patrol, to Independence Fire and back to Aviation. This appears to be all in the last ten years. What is up with them, they seem to keep changing the name.

This group appears to look better each time I read about them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by 10512

[antiquefirelt 994]

Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere but I didn't have time to red all the posts, but have a thought.

Is it not the Commissioner of the FDNY that is responsible for the extinguishment of fire and rescue of persons within all five boroughs? If it is, then he clearly needs to control how that happens. Having any agency self-dispatch to calls, and begin operating can only serve to hamper the FDNY's efforts on arrival, unless said companies works exactly as the FDNY would have (likeliness about 0%). Do the taxpayers of this area deserve the same response as the rest of the city? Can we agree that the response is different for better or worse. Even if they operate safely, they likely are on the closest hydrants and taking spotting positions thus hampering the FDNY response. As I see it it has far more to do with command and control than just volunteer standards vs. the FDNY.

Edited January 26, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[Mac8146 61]

This group as of now has no firehouse to conduct any classroom training, no place to store supplies and or equipment. They disbanded and lost the charter that they had to operate. So how can they just start showing up and getting in the way at any operation. This is not a turf war or about paid vs. volunteer, this is an accident waiting to happen that could injure or kill civilians or FDNY personell. It is time for this organization to realize it is over and stop answering calls however they receive them. I dont here community support in the little area that this original aviation fire dept. served, so now they branch out and go to whatever they see fit. All the other volunteer companies still active in nyc stay in the response area they were formed to cover, Oceanic and Richmond do not leave the sections in Staten Island, never heard of Edgewater going to any other area but Edgewater. Do they have insurance on the apparatus or any vehicle that is part of this group in case of an accident. Time to go away Aviation or if you are serious follow the proper channells to become an organization if possible.

[JJB531 652]

Just wondering if they are not reckognized by FDNY or OFPC are the members covered under VFBL? Are they eligible for PSOB benefits if killed in the LODD?

That actually had a LODD several years back and the benefits allocated was a big issue. Here's a link to a NYS appellate court rulings in that case:

Court ruling

Ruling link

Ruling Link

[Remember585 815]

This may be a dumb question, and is in no way a dig at anyone...

What is the point of the volunteer companies within the five boroughs? I know little about NYC, so I apologize for being so naive.

[ny10570 745]

I don't see what they would even charge these volunteer FF's with. If the Fire Truck is complies with all regs and is registered. There with be nothing that they can do, and the only thing they can do is a freelancing charge. Which is just a please leave. Even then they don't have to do that, cause it can fall under the good samaritan Act.

Interfering with governmental administration or interfering with firefighting duties are both class A misdemeanors. I believe any injuries that occur as a result of the interference bump it up to a felony. Hopefully an officer here can confirm.

Of course the DA will plead it out to a violation, but at least they have to go through the system every time they want to get in the way at a call.

[ny10570 745]

This may be a dumb question, and is in no way a dig at anyone...

What is the point of the volunteer companies within the five boroughs? I know little about NYC, so I apologize for being so naive.

A couple pre-date FDNY's expansion into their neck of the woods and others like Edgewater were a private fire company for a private community.

[NJMedic 96]

I don't see what they would even charge these volunteer FF's with. If the Fire Truck is complies with all regs and is registered. There with be nothing that they can do, and the only thing they can do is a freelancing charge. Which is just a please leave. Even then they don't have to do that, cause it can fall under the good samaritan Act.

Don't know how the GS act is written in NY State but the GS Act does not really cover official responders or responders (official or not) with emergency training. The original entent of the GS Act was to cover non-trained personel from the potential suits that would result in their intervention. For example a person fall down a flight of stairs at a train station. A person, acting in good faith does something that cuases further harm, lets say put a pillow under someone's head with a resulting cervical injury one could not cause hold the passer by liable for damages. On the other hand a passer by who is a State certified EMT does the same thing the EMT could be held liable because his training should have lead him in the right direction.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't see what they would even charge these volunteer FF's with. If the Fire Truck is complies with all regs and is registered. There with be nothing that they can do, and the only thing they can do is a freelancing charge. Which is just a please leave. Even then they don't have to do that, cause it can fall under the good samaritan Act.

There are a variety of potential charges. As ny10570 already noted, Obstructing Governmental Administration and Obstructing Firefighting Operations are possible. Other potential charges couuld also exist depending on the circumstances.

There is no "freelancing" charge in the law, perhaps we should propose that though!

As for the "please leave". If the police or fire department say "please leave" to someone on an emergency scene, that constitutes an official order and there's no defense. The "Good Samaritan Act" defends people against civil action for intervening before responders arrive. The GSA doesn't protect someone if they're interfering with responders on scene or purporting to be something that they're not.

[Task Force 7 65]

Can they not be arrested for impersonating as firefighters? I mean if they are not an official Volunteer Fire Dept recognized by the State of NY Fire Marshals Office, or who ever oversees that area. Then wouldn't they be impersonating? Just asking!!

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I don't see what they would even charge these volunteer FF's with. If the Fire Truck is complies with all regs and is registered. There with be nothing that they can do, and the only thing they can do is a freelancing charge. Which is just a please leave. Even then they don't have to do that, cause it can fall under the good samaritan Act.

How in the world could a Fire truck, Fire engine comply in the state of New York. For the purpose of Firefighting owned by a municipality it carrys a offical plate from the state of New York. Fire trucks or engines when bought new by a city ,town, village, Fire distrct get a certificate of orgin not a title. 99% of fire trucks or engines don't even have a state plate on it . I have been buying and selling and donating fire trucks in this state for many years! The state of New York motor vehicle dept does not recognize a fire truck as a motor vehicle when owned by a municipality. Now if they [aviation] have it registered as a commercal vehicle then that comes under a whole new set of guide lines ! Who has a CDL, Haz mat[tank water], air brakes, and so on ! helicopper what do you think about this ?

Edited January 26, 2012 by PCFD ENG58

[babhits16 28]

According here the Bronx Fire Patrol and Aviation are recognized as an agency or group...

http://www.fasny.com/index.php/membership/find-a-local-department/?dept=bronx

[helicopper 1,050]

Can they not be arrested for impersonating as firefighters? I mean if they are not an official Volunteer Fire Dept recognized by the State of NY Fire Marshals Office, or who ever oversees that area. Then wouldn't they be impersonating? Just asking!!

Perhaps. It would again depend on the circumstances and conduct of the parties involved.

How in the world could a Fire truck, Fire engine comply in the state of New York. For the purpose of Firefighting owned by a municipality it carrys a offical plate from the state of New York. Fire trucks or engines when bought new by a city ,town, village, Fire distrct get a certificate of orgin not a title. 99% of fire trucks or engines don't even have a state plate on it . I have been buying and selling and donating fire trucks in this state for many years! The state of New York motor vehicle dept does not recognize a fire truck as a motor vehicle when owned by a municipality. Now if they [aviation] have it registered as a commercal vehicle then that comes under a whole new set of guide lines ! Who has a CDL, Haz mat[tank water], air brakes, and so on ! helicopper what do you think about this ?

Depending on how the vehicles are (or are not) registered, there could be VTL charges for the operators and perhaps the owners. Like I said before, there are many potential issues associated with this situation.

According here the Bronx Fire Patrol and Aviation are recognized as an agency or group...

http://www.fasny.com...ent/?dept=bronx

Recognized by who? FASNY is a fraternal organization, isn't it? They don't regulate anything. The "chief" asserts that he will only respond to a directive from OFPC or the mayor but OFPC doesn't regulate departments, the municipality does. The Fire Commissioner, an agent of the mayor, directed them to cease and desist so I would think that he has the backing of the mayor's office but that's just me. I think their standing will come into question now if they were "disbanded" and reformed. The legal case in 1995 was based largely on an implied contract. I think the city's order to stop responding to their calls will eliminate that contract and they'll be on their own if someone else gets hurt/killed. Not a desirable position to be in.

.

[NJMedic 96]

According here the Bronx Fire Patrol and Aviation are recognized as an agency or group...

http://www.fasny.com/index.php/membership/find-a-local-department/?dept=bronx

Helicopper beat me to it, how does an adovcacy group (FASNY) recongize/certify/whatever a fire department? The FASNY doesn't even list the FDNY.

[nycemt728 49]

but OFPC doesn't regulate departments, the municipality does.

.

Can you back this up with anything? Even if that were the case, it would seem logical that the state would retain some sort of control. So far everyone has seen fit to bash, but has anyone actually checked on their claim that they are a legit orgainzation???

[newsbuff 286]

Helicopper beat me to it, how does an adovcacy group (FASNY) recongize/certify/whatever a fire department? The FASNY doesn't even list the FDNY.

Somehow I think that FASNY and the FDNY don't terribly like each other....

[Guest alsfirefighter]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

I have to ask...how do you know they are doing a good job? What benchmark is "doing a great job" exactly?

As far as your assumption of not being properly trained they'd be out of business a long time ago doesn't exactly hold water. It is difficult at best other then the AHJ..which in this case happens to be the City of NY to shut doors unless there is egregious lack of standards. Bottom line is they are not trained to the same level of certification as a FDNY firefighter comes out of the academy, they do not have the same standards and testing to officer positions...period. Your own words are exactly why it is ridiculous..."they are ran (should be run) on their own and the city doesn't help them." Well if they are so good and doing just as good of a job..then wouldn't they just fit right into the system?

[INIT915 1,119]

That actually had a LODD several years back and the benefits allocated was a big issue. Here's a link to a NYS appellate court rulings in that case:

Court ruling

Ruling link

Ruling Link

Interesting twist. It would appear they do have a leg to stand on. (From a legal perspective that is, not necessarily a firematic one.)

[ex-commish 490]

It appears that the other volunteer companies in NYC are sactioned, blessed, christened...whatever you want to call it :)and they appear to have a set response area and seem to work well with the FDNY but it seems that Avation is more of group of freelancers just showing up where ever and I can understand the stance the FDNY is taking. It boils down to safety.

[gamewell45 258]

.

FASNY is a fraternal organization, isn't it?

No. They are an association composed of volunteer firefighters whose primary goal is to represent the volunteer fire fighters best interests in Albany concerning benefits, training, laws and other related areas of interest to the volunteer fire service.

There is a social element to the organization as well, much like social events put on by labor unions for their members, but that is a secondary goal of the association's purpose.

Edited January 27, 2012 by gamewell45

[gamewell45 258]

Helicopper beat me to it, how does an adovcacy group (FASNY) recongize/certify/whatever a fire department? The FASNY doesn't even list the FDNY.

Plain and simple; they don't. In order to join FASNY, they must meet a certain criteria in order to be eligible for membership in the organization. Membership in FASNY does not qualify and organization to be recognized as a legal entity in NY State.

[gamewell45 258]

Somehow I think that FASNY and the FDNY don't terribly like each other....

Where did you hear that? I've been to FASNY meetings before and have never heard FDNY's name mentioned in any bad light whatsoever.

[newsbuff 286]

Where did you hear that? I've been to FASNY meetings before and have never heard FDNY's name mentioned in any bad light whatsoever.

And I could very well be wrong, as the information that I was told was secondhand. A few people that I have spoken to, who are members of FASNY and attend meetings, usually complain about the City, or just the IAFF, UFA, etc. are always against them in terms of key issues. (see: Training)

Again, I could be wrong.