FDNY Commish Orders Aviation VFD to Cease Operating

[JJB531 652]

Daily News Article Link

A BRONX VOLUNTEER fire chief thumbed his nose Tuesday at an FDNY warning that he and his colleagues would be arrested if they continued responding to emergency calls.

Chief Romeo Toro said his 60-member strong Aviation Volunteer Fire Department will keep chasing fire alarms in and around the Classon Point neighborhood.

"Yes, we will risk arrest," the 28-year-old fire chief said. "We will continue to operate until we get a letter from the mayor or the Office of Fire Prevention and Control saying we can't operate."

That was followed by a strongly worded letter from Fire Commissioner Salvatore Cassano.

"We hereby demand that AVFD immediately cease its operations and discontinue making any representations that AVFD is authorized by the City of New York or the FDNY to provide emergency medical and firefighting services," he wrote.

[stixx 7]

let Aviation VFD go on the calls there not hurting no one.

[Guest fire42rescue]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Is there any truth to the claim by Cassano that these guys aren't actually trained/certified?

[JohnnyOV 2]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

Ahh to be young and naive. I might be young too, but I know that there is a huge difference between what OFPC's recommends on volunteer training (remember NYS is a home rule state, so FF1 is not required), and FDNY's career academy. The volunteers do not go through the FDNY academy, which would make is almost impossible for them to fit seamlessly into the FDNY's operations. The last thing the FDNY is worried about, are these volunteer companies taking away their jobs. They're worried that their standards and training requirements are not kept up as adequately as the FDNY's, which could endanger the lives of the citizens and responders even more. They "pick on them" because the fail to produce training requirements, or certificates of their members to the FDNY to show that they are all adequately trained.

Everyone might love cake, but that doesn't mean cake is good for you.

[JJB531 652]

I'm curious if the City is going to come out with an official position on the presence of independent fire companies operating within the confines of the City? Does the presence of these non-contracted agencies set a precedent that anyone can go out and buy a scanner and a fire truck and start responding to jobs?

[nycmedic 65]

They have a history of squandering money.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/fire-company-squanders-500g-9-11-money-article-1.264708

[Guest fire42rescue]

@ JohnnyOV I understand what your saying and peoples lives are at risk if the training isnt kept up to its requirements. but wheres their training log every time they do training they have to fill out a sheet for the amount of hours and what type of training completed its really not that much of a difference than any other volunteer department. but its just a shame that these volunteer departments been around for so long and they are trying to get rid of them. and if they all kept up on their requirments there wouldnt be a problem.

[KRF178 49]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

The problem is that the City of New York already has fire protection in the form of FDNY. These volunteer fire companys are nothing but freelancers...what do we call the guy on the fire scene who doesn't listen to any orders, ignores accountability, and does what he wants(besides ahole), yeah that's right, a FREELANCER. The same applies here, this company is basically buffing jobs off of a scanner(their not dispatched by FDNY), they don't follow FDNY SOPs/SOGs, they may have their own. I'd like to see what the response would be if I bought my own firetruck and started responding undispatched to jobs in Mamaroneck...I'm sure I'd turn a few heads.

On the training aspect, FDNY has their academy/training set up the way that they want their personnel trained. I'm going to guarantee that the AVFD doesn't attend the FDNY academy. What happens if one of these volunteer members gets injured in the line of duty? I bet that they would go after the City for it. This opens up a huge liability to NYC with organzations like this freelancing around the city. How about the unprofessionalism that is displayed when these guys show up and a dispute takes place?

Don't always take the "Paid guys are just causing trouble" approach. Look at things from the other side a little bit, and try and see that doing the right thing isn't always doing the right thing.

Edited January 25, 2012 by jack10562

[JJB531 652]

@ JohnnyOV I understand what your saying and peoples lives are at risk if the training isnt kept up to its requirements. but wheres their training log every time they do training they have to fill out a sheet for the amount of hours and what type of training completed its really not that much of a difference than any other volunteer department. but its just a shame that these volunteer departments been around for so long and they are trying to get rid of them. and if they all kept up on their requirments there wouldnt be a problem.

They SHOULD document training. From what I have read on other discussion forums about this agency, they're not even recognized by the OFPC as a legitimate Fire agency. If that's the case, do they HAVE to fill out a training log as you asserted? Who is requiring them to if the governing body of VFD's in NYS doesn't even recognize them? So far everything I've read about this agency is that they are pretty much an unofficial, illegitimate Fire Department who has somehow enabled themselves to operate within the City of New York.

If the assertions made by the FDNY are true that their standards and training is sub-par, the shame is that they have not taken the appropriate steps to do what they need to do to be considered a resource or somewhat legitimate agency, not that the FDNY doesn't want them operating at their fire scenes.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Anyone ever see an Aviation member taking FF1 or the old Essentials of Firemanship at Westchester?

Its not a matter of picking on the volunteers in this case. There are a total of 9 volunteer departments within the confines of New York City. Aviation always seems to end up in the news, and not in a good way. Never hear that much about the other 8 volunteer companies do we? After the nonsense they pulled after 9/11 crying about lost/damaged equipment and then squandering donations on things like nightclubs they deserve every ounce of scrutiny they get. They give volunteers a bad name, and as a volunteer I think they should be shut down and face criminal investigations.

[mstrang1 213]

I remember in the late 90s taking some kind of class at WCFTC with a bunch of Aviation guys. My chief at the time ended up digging out some old turnout gear/tools that were taking up space and donating it. I used to be friends with a girl from BCVFD and she was amazed we had blue, black AND red pens at the firehouse.

[firemoose827 324]

@ JohnnyOV I understand what your saying and peoples lives are at risk if the training isnt kept up to its requirements. but wheres their training log every time they do training they have to fill out a sheet for the amount of hours and what type of training completed its really not that much of a difference than any other volunteer department. but its just a shame that these volunteer departments been around for so long and they are trying to get rid of them. and if they all kept up on their requirments there wouldnt be a problem.

For some reason, some people put a lot of weight on "In house Training" like drills. As a volunteer fire captain, I dont see how we can. It simply isnt the same as state training lead by a certified state fire instructor.

To me, training is two parts; State Fire Training, than supplement with station drills taught by competent officers and assisted by trained experienced firefighters. Some departments have no clue how a drill should be, Ive seen departments say that a control burn is a drill yet they only stood around and watched it to make sure it didnt spread. Thats not a drill, maybe for the pump operator who had to secure a water source and charge a line but not for interior firefighters. Than there is the departments who sit around the station all night BS'ing and doing nothing but getting away from the home front for a while, than they sign a drill sheet that SAYS they did a drill of some sort for 3 hours...how can a departments drill habbits be properly accounted for?? In the career sector there is no doubt, no questioning because its mandated and properly accounted for annually.

Thats why a lot of people are having a hard time seeing the training of volunteers as beeing sufficient...its not. Im a volunteer and I say its not. And to add to this this department isnt even a ligitimately operating fire department, they are not on anyones radar including OFPC as being listed in NY State as a fire department, so how do they get the insurance for their members?? If one of them gets hurt, are they covered?? They are not even dispatched at all by a 911 dispatch center?? There is too much that screams wrong here to me, they need to be investigated and someone needs to intervene here and put an end to this madness.

[NJMedic 96]

I don’t have great insight as to how the volunteers work with FDNY. The Richmond Engine Company on SI seems to work well with FDNY. Apparently they are the only volunteer company with permission to communicate on the FDNY radio system and I think they are listed on run cards (CAD) for their area. With the exception of Aviation I rarely see or hear much about the volunteers. Broad Channel had some issues a couple of years ago but they did not involve emergency response operations. Most of the companies seem to have fairly decent equipment that is tailored to their areas. I can’t imagine the volume of responses they volunteer companies have is a serious threat to the FDNY. It sounds to me that Aviation does not play by the rules of the incident management system. Maybe the perceived lack of training is evident by the behavior at emergency incidents. I regular seen Richmond Engine guys at classes here in Middlesex County, NJ. They are only about 15 minutes away from our academy.

[JBE 328]

Richmond and Oceanic are the only two that are recognized by the City,also the only ones we dispatch. Although I am pretty sure West Hamilton and Broad Channel have either teleprinters or a voice alarm in their quarters. Aviation has had a lot of trouble over the years since the 11th. I remember one of the things they pulled was their rig was damaged. I saw it last year in a private collection, looked ok to me. Their building was condemned/vacated back in 03 or 04 by the city. When it comes to a lot of these other departments, they all were established prior to the FDNY having a presence there. As far as I know there is a good relationship between the FDNY, Richmond, Oceanic(When they turn out), Broad Channel, and West Hamilton. I'm not sure what the deal is with Aviation,. but we were told a few weeks ago not to give them any info on anything going on.

[ex-commish 490]

I remember in the late 90s taking some kind of class at WCFTC with a bunch of Aviation guys. My chief at the time ended up digging out some old turnout gear/tools that were taking up space and donating it. I used to be friends with a girl from BCVFD and she was amazed we had blue, black AND red pens at the firehouse.

They attended the academy when Basic and Intermediate firefighter was the state cirriculum. I remember having some of them in some of the classes I was teaching.

[jack10562 414]

Does the city fire commissioner actually have the power and/or legal authority to issue a cease and desist order, or does that have to come from the judicial branch of city government?

In the meantime, they can make their lives miserable if they do show up on incidents by calling the cops and having them locked up, and even impound their trucks, for "obstructing governmental administration" or some other catch-all legal grounds.

[FDNYBuff97 5]

I have no problem with any Firefighters , Volunteer , Paid etc .. But I just think it's an idiotic idea to open up a Volunteer Fire House in The Bronx or any of the 5 Boroughs where there are 3 Firehouse Close to this VFD house (Engine 96,Ladder54,Engine 64,Ladder 47, & Engine 94,Ladder 48,Battalion 3) The whole Third Battalion. I also believe Cassano is right they don't have the Right Training or Equipment , They could be trained but Not FDNY trained. They have about 3 Vehicles now ,An ALF Engine & 2 ESU type trucks , & I heard they are getting 3 more Vehicles , It's not necessary , say they buy a tower ladder & they 'Respond' to a Fire they raise they're bucket up & it stalls What's 54 , 47 , or 48 going to do ? Go around the block ?? Or if they're Engine hooks up to a hydrant 96 , 64 0r 94 going to do ? People are going to die if they get in the way! I agree with The FDNY's order , SHUT DOWN!

[IzzyEng4 427]

JBE, the ALF rig was refurbished after WTC. Then they lost the building they were in and all the equipment sat outside. They had two other trucks also, a donated E-One and a new Luverne(?) that was purchased for them. Those two went bye-bye during the scandal when all the money went too.

PCFD ENG 58 I believe had something to do with getting that rig up to Andy's place upstate. He can let us know more on the rig I believe.

Edited January 25, 2012 by IzzyEng4

[Anesti 329]

I dont want to go ot, but do not want to start a new thread, What about Edgewater park Vfd in the bronx?? Im sure they are still around.

[nycemt728 49]

I dont want to go ot, but do not want to start a new thread, What about Edgewater park Vfd in the bronx?? Im sure they are still around.

Yes EPVFD is still around and active. It covers its own area and is quite useful as the streets are incredibly narrow, many FDNY apparatuses ambulances and engines alike have gotten stuck on the streets.

Now, with regards to Aviation. I agree, they've had a bunch of problems over the years. Do they need a new administration or some oversight? ABSELUTELY!! Personally, I never say a bad word against those who volunteer. If they want to help their community, let them. Ofcourse you need to play by the rules. FDNY needs to once again remember that vollys do exist in NYC (legally) and it needs to play with them...enough of the strong arming! Now, if Aviation is not properly trained or compliant or w/e the Commish is claiming, he needs to take it up w/ w/e agencie(s) certify or allow fire dept's in NYS to exist....it is not the FDNY's job to enforce anything. Both agencies exist to help people, not get into pissing matches. If Aviation wants to restore their image and do their job, they need to make damn sure they do it right. If FDNY wants to look good, they need to focus on their job and figure out a way to co-exist peacefully.

Edited January 25, 2012 by nycemt728

[ny10570 745]

This is not about FDNY and volunteers. This is about Aviation and only Aviation. After 9/11 the shut down. They stopped responding and dissolved their membership. A few members got together and created some "emergency response" group that other than buffing fires and posting on FB have no official recognition or affiliation. This group then suddenly and on their own have reestablished Aviation. Would any dept allow a group of residents to purchase a vehicle and start responding within their district? This isn't the FDNY stepping on volleys, this is a bunch of people deciding one day they want to start buffing jobs and operating.

[nycemt728 49]

FDNY is involved because they are having the issue with that dept or as you are referring group of people. Forget how they got started, if they are legit then they need to be left alone. If they are not, FDNY needs to prove their case the the authorities in the proper venue, not play enforcer, that is my only point.

Edited January 25, 2012 by nycemt728

[ex-commish 490]

Just wondering if they are not reckognized by FDNY or OFPC are the members covered under VFBL? Are they eligible for PSOB benefits if killed in the LODD?

[MoFire390 118]

Not for nothing just want to through this around but don't volunteer fire departments get started by a bunch of guys getting together having meetings and saying they want to help the community???

And what is going to happen if and when the mayors office shuts one of these houses down?? do these "buffs" just sit back and do nothing?

I think them having a Fire department is a crazy idea. Especially since FDNY is very well trained and good at their job.

[dillondotcom 16]

Fire42resue..they are not being picked on. They are not trained to our standards. At fire or emergencies they are very disrespectfull, and make unprofessional transmissions on the radio. In the past they have blocked fdny rigs at jobs, and they are very unwilling to cooperate with us.

[f19 4]

I don't see the need for them,,,,,,

And who iinsures them????

What if they severely injur or kill someone when responding?????

Someone wrote they aren't dispatched ,they use scanners ... I'm not a lawyer but pretty sure that won't go over to well in court !!!!!

[bad box 371]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

Have you actually been on enough emergency scenes where this Aviation group operated to be able to honestly make that statement?

[lad12derff 283]

this is ridiculous. i dont understand what the problem is with the volunteer departments in the city. they are ran on their own and the city doesnt help them.they do a great job and all the city does is pick on these guys they get the job done as well as the paid guys do and if they weren't trained properly they wouldve been out of service a long time ago its a shame to see these small volunteer departments go. the surrounding comunity loves each and every one of these departments. and atleast they probly have a better and quicker response time than the fdny does. so my question is y pick on the vollies. i guess the paid guys are thinking that we are taking away there jobs.

Do you really believe that statement? Do you really believe that the vollies in the city are better trained than the FDNY? Come on now. That may be one of the most ridiculous statements made here and yes you are entitled to your opinion. And as for your last statement I ask.......

Your not?

[bad box 371]

@ JohnnyOV I understand what your saying and peoples lives are at risk if the training isnt kept up to its requirements. but wheres their training log every time they do training they have to fill out a sheet for the amount of hours and what type of training completed its really not that much of a difference than any other volunteer department. but its just a shame that these volunteer departments been around for so long and they are trying to get rid of them. and if they all kept up on their requirments there wouldnt be a problem.

So from what I gather, it would be fine with you if these 'Aviation' guys leave NYC and start operating in your VFD's district instead?