Mutual Aid to Greenville Job

[FirNaTine 370]

I see many Depts in lower Westchester had to relocate to cover those sent to Greenville's 10-75. I have two questions 1) Was this mass shuffle warranted and 2) Isn't Eastchester down to 2 Ladders with only one having a working Aerial. If so r u {:content:}amp;^%$ kiddin me? How could anybody in their right mind think that's OK? Do me a favor explain to me the rational and justification in that decission. Very poor judgement boys and girls imo. I cant believe FDMV sent a Ladder to cover Eastchester. There's a Dept. that just got their 3rd Truck back in service, and has a heavy fire load but because of mismanagement next door to them, has to strip their City, its taxpayers and most of all their members of desperately needed manpower and equipment, jeopardizing everyones Safety. When is Management goin to put the needs of those they swore an oath to protect first and stop always trying to be the nice guy. This $^*% has got to stop! Unbelievable!

Edited January 25, 2012 by jack10562

[GFD70 4]

Most of what was requested was turned back from what I saw. The only mutual aid units operating by the time I got called back and sent to the scene was HFD and FFD along with Scarsdale & WPFD covering Greenville and they were returned almost as soon as they got to Greenville. As far as Eastchester, their TL17 is dispatched on our 10-75 assignment. I'm not sure how they handled the response on their end. I'm curious as to what you feel would have been an appropriate response to a working fire in either the career or volunteer departments that you belong to.

[TimesUp 148]

Eastchester's TL-17 is dispatched on a 10-75? Even though they're down a truck with a working ariel and I saw something on another thread that they were down to one truck. WOW! Now I see why some of the Eastchester members on here are fed up with whats going on.

[ttomcap 18]

Who do you think is mismanaged?

[FirNaTine 370]

Most of what was requested was turned back from what I saw. The only mutual aid units operating by the time I got called back and sent to the scene was HFD and FFD along with Scarsdale & WPFD covering Greenville and they were returned almost as soon as they got to Greenville. As far as Eastchester, their TL17 is dispatched on our 10-75 assignment. I'm not sure how they handled the response on their end. I'm curious as to what you feel would have been an appropriate response to a working fire in either the career or volunteer departments that you belong to.

Depends on how many guys are on duty and how big a Job it is to start with. If many units were turned around then maybe that "panic button" was hit once again that I spoke of in the other thread. My problem really is with those Depts that send m/a to others and really can't afford to and shouldn't. Many Depts that provide m/a also don't implement a call back to staff their spares. Don't know about you but I look out for my own first, and that includes the taxpayers that pay my salary. Everyone else comes second.

[GFD70 4]

Depends on how many guys are on duty and how big a Job it is to start with. If many units were turned around then maybe that "panic button" was hit once again that I spoke of in the other thread. My problem really is with those Depts that send m/a to others and really can't afford to and shouldn't. Many Depts that provide m/a also don't implement a call back to staff their spares. Don't know about you but I look out for my own first, and that includes the taxpayers that pay my salary. Everyone else comes second.

I have to disagree with your logic. As has been mentioned on this site before, NFPA 1710 requires a minimum of 16 FF's to respond to a working fire. The number of departments dispatched does not necessarily reflect on the intensity of the fire nor does it imply that the "panic button" was hit. Is the system perfect? Far from it. But when an IC is looking at a house with smoke pushing from the roof and 2nd floor, its not the time to start questioning what departments should be called in. The initial response to this particular fire was 1 capt & 6 ff's from GFD (our normal staffing) plus the crew from HFD E170 ( I believe it was 1 capt & 2 ff's today)as per our automatic aid agreement. With the transmission of a 10-75 additional resources are dispatched to the scene as well as to cover quarters. A recall of off duty ff's was also conducted. Keep in mind that mutual aid agreements were in place way before this fire started. Both sides agreed to it and signed off on it. Our alarm assignments are in the system for 60 Control so when an officer requests an additional alarm, the dispatcher can quickly dispatch all requested departments. If a department could not supply a rig for whatever reason, they can always deny the request.

[Mac8146 61]

Just wondering I read the assigned units to this fire, is Hartsdale using the ladder loaned to them from FDMV or not. It states E-170 and E-171 were assigned to the fire but no mention of a ladder. As for Eastchester are they fixing L-15 and L-16 so they have 3 aerials again or just playing roulette, it seems unfair to the taxpayers their to send the only working ladder out of town so to speak, what if a fire happened in Eastchester while TL-17 was away.

[FirNaTine 370]

Eastchester's TL-17 is dispatched on a 10-75? Even though they're down a truck with a working ariel and I saw something on another thread that they were down to one truck. WOW! Now I see why some of the Eastchester members on here are fed up with whats going on.

Can you blame them? Where's the Union stand on this issue?

[FirNaTine 370]

I have to disagree with your logic. As has been mentioned on this site before, NFPA 1710 requires a minimum of 16 FF's to respond to a working fire. The number of departments dispatched does not necessarily reflect on the intensity of the fire nor does it imply that the "panic button" was hit. Is the system perfect? Far from it. But when an IC is looking at a house with smoke pushing from the roof and 2nd floor, its not the time to start questioning what departments should be called in. The initial response to this particular fire was 1 capt & 6 ff's from GFD (our normal staffing) plus the crew from HFD E170 ( I believe it was 1 capt & 2 ff's today)as per our automatic aid agreement. With the transmission of a 10-75 additional resources are dispatched to the scene as well as to cover quarters. A recall of off duty ff's was also conducted. Keep in mind that mutual aid agreements were in place way before this fire started. Both sides agreed to it and signed off on it. Our alarm assignments are in the system for 60 Control so when an officer requests an additional alarm, the dispatcher can quickly dispatch all requested departments. If a department could not supply a rig for whatever reason, they can always deny the request.

Can you answer why FDMV isn't sent to Greenville then for a JOB but 60 Control sends Greenville to FDMV. The M/A agreement for Westchester seems to be out of wack in many areas. Again my problem with this Incident today isn't so much the request for m/a it's Depts. supplying it that have no business doing so.

[LFD34 12]

As per the other article on manpower and response, it always better request and turn back what is not needed than not request and come up short. Every department works up their run card and has their relationships with neighboring departments. Ibelieve we shouldn't try to micro analyze every decision being made.

[GFD70 4]

Can you answer why FDMV isn't sent to Greenville then for a JOB but 60 Control sends Greenville to FDMV. The M/A agreement for Westchester seems to be out of wack in many areas. Again my problem with this Incident today isn't so much the request for m/a it's Depts. supplying it that have no business doing so.

FDMV is a part of our mutual aid system. Just not on our 10-75 assignment. Just as a side note, GFD probably hasn't been to Mount Vernon for a fire in well over a year.

[TimesUp 148]

Greenville responding to MV. MV responding to Greenville. Either one doesn't make sense. Who the hell came up with that idea anyway?

[TimesUp 148]

What Westchester needs to do is figure out away to combine resources so this sort of thing wont happen!

[HFD23 37]

Just wondering I read the assigned units to this fire, is Hartsdale using the ladder loaned to them from FDMV or not. It states E-170 and E-171 were assigned to the fire but no mention of a ladder. As for Eastchester are they fixing L-15 and L-16 so they have 3 aerials again or just playing roulette, it seems unfair to the taxpayers their to send the only working ladder out of town so to speak, what if a fire happened in Eastchester while TL-17 was away.

Hartsdale is using a spare FDMV Ladder.

E-170 responding on the automatic aid agreement.

E-171 was requested. as an additional company on the 10-75. Why would our ladder be sent if it wasn't requested? additionally 3 ladders were already responding on such a small street how many can even fit on the fire block? HFD has a spare Engine and HFD conducted a recall as Greenville Fairview and Scarsdale do for us all the time.

Heres the truth of the matter the IC called for his preset 10-75 he got what his department has in the CAD.

The fire went out in less then 12 mintues.

Most of the Mutual Aid was returned prior to arriving on scene, better to have manpower then not to, even with all those apparatus their are only 18 members responding to the scene not counting Yonkers with 10 members that didn't operate from my understanding.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Was this mass shuffle warranted

If we continue to have lots of understaffed depts every other mile, then yes it was.

How could anybody in their right mind think that's OK?

I have been saying that for years, but most keep fighting to maintain the status quo.

I cant believe FDMV sent a Ladder to cover Eastchester. There's a Dept. that just got their 3rd Truck back in service, and has a heavy fire load but because of mismanagement next door to them, has to strip their City, its taxpayers and most of all their members of desperately needed manpower and equipment, jeopardizing everyones Safety.

Maybe its ok because MVFD has stripped those around it many times. Its where the "MUTUAL" comes in. Yes MVFD needs 3 trucks and its manppwoer, etc. But there have been many times it needed 5 or 6 or more and its citizens benefit from the mutual aid it recieves so they are not paying for 5 trucks that it raarely needs.

When is Management goin to put the needs of those they swore an oath to protect first and stop always trying to be the nice guy. This $hit has got to stop! Unbelievable!

Let managment tell the community that they need to raise taxes even more to add every resource they currently can get from mutual aid. Oh thats right the tax payers voted for a tax capping gov. So that oath they swore includes making sure that when their dept is committed to an incident, other depts will cover the district.

[AddItToTheBoxK 12]

ONE WORD SOLVES THIS AND MANY OTHER ISSUES Consolidation.....you can do it many different ways....start with the departments in the same Battalion.

FirNaTine i agree management can be done better concerning our resources. But if you ask me I think in most of Westchester there are to many ladders and so called heavy rescues. Also what my Department does when we take a piece of equipment out of our district that is vital to our community/ district we thrn backfill.

You may ask then where does it stop hmmm thats the million $ question....

I agree if you cant fullfill your district with proper fire protection and dont have a plan to back it up when you leave you should then manage the mutual aid plan before the call.

But it did seem in the IA that there was alot of mutual aid on this job for a PD but thr I C knows best at that time and bottom.line everyone went home.

[FirNaTine 370]

Maybe its ok because MVFD has stripped those around it many times. Its where the "MUTUAL" comes in. Yes MVFD needs 3 trucks and its manppwoer, etc. But there have been many times it needed 5 or 6 or more and its citizens benefit from the mutual aid it recieves so they are not paying for 5 trucks that it raarely needs.

Barry but whose fault was that? I believe there was only one Dept. that finally said they had enough and told FDMV to get help elsewhere and you know what they were right. Not to mention lets not kid ourselves many members in other Depts. were just dying to go m/a, especially to the scene. Even more so if they were gettin OT for it.

[Mac8146 61]

My question arose from reading the assignments in the incident forums, I didnt know E171 was additional unit but still would think the Ladder from HFD is closer than Eastchester. I didnt know they would need a request to respond as I figured there is some sort of card used by dispatchers to send units to a location. Again i am curious as to why Eastchester would go to the fire leaving there town without an aerial/tower for any amount of time, while there are other working Ladders closer. Is there a procedure to amend responses for such issues in place.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Mac8146

[Bnechis 3,961]

If many units were turned around then maybe that "panic button" was hit once again that I spoke of in the other thread.

Can you list any fire service text on command or tactics that does not say, send more than you need, you can always turn it around?

My problem really is with those Depts that send m/a to others and really can't afford to and shouldn't.

Since those depts need to recieve it even more, they must send if they want help when they needed it.

Many Depts that provide m/a also don't implement a call back to staff their spares.

This is only needed because we maintain the walls around every boarder. Go to most parts of the country and they cover with 1/2 our apparatus, but each one is better staffed and the calls get covered better than we can.

Don't know about you but I look out for my own first, and that includes the taxpayers that pay my salary. Everyone else comes second.

Most firefighters in Westchester can't be looking out for themselves 1st without mutail aid to back them up. We calculated that if the 10 career depts (in the consolidation study) wanted to meet NFPA 1710 as stand alone depts we needed an additional 508 firefighters & officers, but as a single dept. covering the same area with 3ff/1of on every rig and 22 members on every structure alarm (vs. 3 to 14 as stand alone) we were short about 4 firefighters. Wow, whats the cost to the taxpayer for an additional 508 employees?

[Bnechis 3,961]

NFPA 1710 requires a minimum of 16 FF's to respond to a working fire.

1710 requires a minimum of 16 firefighters to respond to an "alarm of fire" in a 2,000sq' structure (or smaller) without a basement. Once a working fire is declared an additional 3 must be dispatched. Larger structures or target hazards require more.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Greenville responding to MV. MV responding to Greenville. Either one doesn't make sense. Who the hell came up with that idea anyway?

Can you answer why FDMV isn't sent to Greenville then for a JOB but 60 Control sends Greenville to FDMV. The M/A agreement for Westchester seems to be out of wack in many areas. Again my problem with this Incident today isn't so much the request for m/a it's Depts. supplying it that have no business doing so.

Because the chief of MVFD gets to tell 60 who he wants 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. as does the chief of GFD. Thats why it different for every dept.

If the criteria for sending M/A was who can do it without stripping the community, then almost every dept in the county could never send M/A.

Not to mention lets not kid ourselves many members in other Depts. were just dying to go m/a, especially to the scene. Even more so if they were gettin OT for it.

Yes the members always want to go to a job. But they are not the ones who get to say who goes. Again, in a consolidated dept. you get to go to more jobs, because you get to respond to more than 1 square mile.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Probably a "Very Sore" subject on here, but I post it anyway. Why, on some Major Jobs in YONKERS, Greenville is dispatched by 60 Control to help cover Yonkers on Mutual Aid requests BUT Yonkers is not dispatched to assist Greenville in their requests for Mutual Aid????? (Yonkers Station 14, with Engine 314 and Ladder 70 is just down the road on Central Avenue from the Greenville Fire District (Why Eastchester or even better Mount Vernon ????)

My opinion is (and always has been) that the Westchester Mutual Aid System is flawed, broken and in dis-repair and the "ONLY" an FULL AND COMPLETE (with ZERO EXCEPTIONS) County-Wide Consolidation (and this INCLUDES YONKERS) is a MUST

Can you answer why FDMV isn't sent to Greenville then for a JOB but 60 Control sends Greenville to FDMV. The M/A agreement for Westchester seems to be out of wack in many areas. Again my problem with this Incident today isn't so much the request for m/a it's Depts. supplying it that have no business doing so.

[TimesUp 148]

Because the chief of MVFD gets to tell 60 who he wants 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. as does the chief of GFD. Thats why it different for every dept.

If the criteria for sending M/A was who can do it without stripping the community, then almost every dept in the county could never send M/A.

[

]

Yes Barry, theres a card with mutual aid assignments. The point is that it doesn't make sense. But thanks for the answer.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ltrob

[GFD70 4]

Probably a "Very Sore" subject on here, but I post it anyway. Why, on some Major Jobs in YONKERS, Greenville is dispatched by 60 Control to help cover Yonkers on Mutual Aid requests BUT Yonkers is not dispatched to assist Greenville in their requests for Mutual Aid????? (Yonkers Station 14, with Engine 314 and Ladder 70 is just down the road on Central Avenue from the Greenville Fire District (Why Eastchester or even better Mount Vernon ????)

My opinion is (and always has been) that the Westchester Mutual Aid System is flawed, broken and in dis-repair and the "ONLY" an FULL AND COMPLETE (with ZERO EXCEPTIONS) County-Wide Consolidation (and this INCLUDES YONKERS) is a MUST

Yonkers is on our 10-75 assignment. They have operated at several working fires in Greenville in recent years.

[HFD23 37]

Probably a "Very Sore" subject on here, but I post it anyway. Why, on some Major Jobs in YONKERS, Greenville is dispatched by 60 Control to help cover Yonkers on Mutual Aid requests BUT Yonkers is not dispatched to assist Greenville in their requests for Mutual Aid????? (Yonkers Station 14, with Engine 314 and Ladder 70 is just down the road on Central Avenue from the Greenville Fire District (Why Eastchester or even better Mount Vernon ????)

My opinion is (and always has been) that the Westchester Mutual Aid System is flawed, broken and in dis-repair and the "ONLY" an FULL AND COMPLETE (with ZERO EXCEPTIONS) County-Wide Consolidation (and this INCLUDES YONKERS) is a MUST

Yonkers sent 1 and 1 with batt2 to this job.

[gamewell45 258]

Probably a "Very Sore" subject on here, but I post it anyway. Why, on some Major Jobs in YONKERS, Greenville is dispatched by 60 Control to help cover Yonkers on Mutual Aid requests BUT Yonkers is not dispatched to assist Greenville in their requests for Mutual Aid????? (Yonkers Station 14, with Engine 314 and Ladder 70 is just down the road on Central Avenue from the Greenville Fire District (Why Eastchester or even better Mount Vernon ????)

My opinion is (and always has been) that the Westchester Mutual Aid System is flawed, broken and in dis-repair and the "ONLY" an FULL AND COMPLETE (with ZERO EXCEPTIONS) County-Wide Consolidation (and this INCLUDES YONKERS) is a MUST

Good luck. Given the mindset in Westchester its highly unlikely you'd ever get full and complete county-wide consolidation.

[Pudge3311 5]

Simply put, NY is a home rule state. So when you say fire, whoever the chief is gets to decide who gets to play. Until this changes, nothing is ever going to change. We can all disect this job til we are blue in the face, but until then, we all know that nothing is going to change.

It nothing against anyone, its a simple product of our state and the way its run and governed. Consolidation would be great and benificial, but until it happens nothing is going to change.

If your the chief, pick any department and have them dispatched. Hopefully they show up with enough people that know what they are doing. If not, ill call another department nd put you to work anyway.

We all know the system is flawed. Its not going to change. How bout we start talking about how to actually try and consolidate instead of asking why four departments went to a job instead of one?

End result, the fire went out. One department, 20 departments, doesn't matter. Everyone went home at the end of the tour, that's what matters. Chiefs and their fiefdoms, not going to change until someone has the balls to stand up and say its BS and then actually do something about it.

End of story/rant.

[bigrig77 95]

Chiefs and their fiefdoms, not going to change until someone has the balls to stand up and say its BS and then actually do something about it.

never gonna happen. These chiefs are so power hungry they will never give up their little sandbox.

The guys in the city have full trucks and they still get more guys then they need. And that's a good thing. Here in Westchester everyone is so scared of this big scary Consolidation. Just get it done. We are all getting kicked around by a couple of dinosaur Chiefs who are still using the mind set of the 70's 80's and 90's. Times have changed. Taxpayers expect and deserve more and better fire protection. Showing up with one guy on the rig or sending a couple of guys is not gonna cut it anymore. As was stated, everywhere else in the country departments cover 100's of square miles with less then we have. You cant rely on Vols like you use too. You cant expect a fully staffed engine or ladder to come anymore. Times have changed. Now it's time this county to catch up.

[Captain 402 3]

never gonna happen. These chiefs are so power hungry they will never give up their little sandbox.

The guys in the city have full trucks and they still get more guys then they need. And that's a good thing. Here in Westchester everyone is so scared of this big scary Consolidation. Just get it done. We are all getting kicked around by a couple of dinosaur Chiefs who are still using the mind set of the 70's 80's and 90's. Times have changed. Taxpayers expect and deserve more and better fire protection. Showing up with one guy on the rig or sending a couple of guys is not gonna cut it anymore. As was stated, everywhere else in the country departments cover 100's of square miles with less then we have. You cant rely on Vols like you use too. You cant expect a fully staffed engine or ladder to come anymore. Times have changed. Now it's time this county to catch up.

It was the Westchester Career Chiefs that endorsed the consolidation study, and you can bet your last d0llar that it wont be the "Power Hungry Chiefs " that finalize a consolidation. It WILL be your city councils, mayors, town councils ,board of fire commissioners, taxpayers and any other politician that has 2 minutes to spare that will decide where consolidation lands.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Captain 402