Consolidation, It Can Happen

[X2321 133]

Three upstate New York fire districts are taking steps to merge together. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120118/NEWS01/120118023/3-local-fire-districts-consolidate?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

[danb 10]

We did it here in the Town of Monroe. Well 3 fire departments ( 2 villages 1 private) into 1 FIre District just last year.

I was heavily involved in the setup and organization on the firematic end and my best piece of advise for anyone from any of those departments that are reading this is go into it with an open mind, look at the big picture and make sure the right people are setting up the department/district.

[SmokeEatter40 8]

I agree that it can be tough with taking the powers way from the departments, yet at the same time it could be a good financial and strategic gain to consolidate.

Take for example a township with Three Fire Departments running seperately.

All three run as Fire/EMS (BLS)

The budgets vary, as well as the apparatus (age/size/rating)

I would assume that any tax payer would be more than happy to hear their taxes are being reduced.

Could this town (town A) consolidate services?

A. Cut down the fleet

1. Retire outdated rigs

2. have a reserve fleet in case of repairs/damages

3. better position apparatus throughout the protection district

B. More manpower spreadout throughout the territory

I guess the biggest complaint I have heard is having the Town Board as the governing body, rather than a Board of Commissioners.

Some people like having a little bit of power.

Just my two cents

Be safe

[helicopper 1,050]

I agree that it can be tough with taking the powers way from the departments, yet at the same time it could be a good financial and strategic gain to consolidate.

Take for example a township with Three Fire Departments running seperately.

All three run as Fire/EMS (BLS)

The budgets vary, as well as the apparatus (age/size/rating)

I would assume that any tax payer would be more than happy to hear their taxes are being reduced.

Could this town (town A) consolidate services?

A. Cut down the fleet

1. Retire outdated rigs

2. have a reserve fleet in case of repairs/damages

3. better position apparatus throughout the protection district

B. More manpower spreadout throughout the territory

I guess the biggest complaint I have heard is having the Town Board as the governing body, rather than a Board of Commissioners.

Some people like having a little bit of power.

Just my two cents

Be safe

If it's a town there would still have to be a fire district, right? I thought it was pointed out in another thread that town's cannot be in charge of a fire district, only villages and cities.

[JohnnyOV 2]

If it's a town there would still have to be a fire district, right? I thought it was pointed out in another thread that town's cannot be in charge of a fire district, only villages and cities.

You are correct.

A town cannot run any type of fire protection in NYS. They have no power or levy over the operations of the district as they are two separate governing entities. All they are allowed to do, is collect the taxes that the district asks for, and hands the check over to them each tax year. I'll use Yorktown as an example: The Yorktown Heights Fire Department, does not exist. The Yorktown Heights Engine Company Number 1, which is a social organization that supplies the manpower, and the Yorktown Heights Fire District which sets the operating budget and purchases all the equipment and apparatus for the Engine Company members to use exist. They work in operation together to provide fire protection for the town, but in the legal sense, are no way a department of the town, or a department at all. The Chief answers to and works closely with the Board of Fire Commissioners of the district

I'm pretty sure I have this right, but Cities and Villages have an actual Fire Department in their government (a department of 'The city of X" = X fire department). The Croton Fire Department, is an actual department that falls under the Village of Croton - on - Hudson and subsequently answers to the Village Board which sets its expenditures at the recommendations of the Chief of the department. As a real mind turner, they also contract out with parts of Cortlandt for Fire protection. There is no "Fire District" line per se. This is why when Tarrytown had their LODD, the Village was slapped with "Serious Violations" from PESH,"The Village of Tarrytown exposed the employees of the FD (Fire Department) by not developing a permit-required confined space entry program, or provided the necessary training." (http://tarrytown.pat...-manhole-deaths) Had this happened in a town with a fire district, the town itself would have 0 liability.

edit: if consolidation were to occur, there would have to be one large Fire District. i.e. "The Northern Westchester fire District" which could span across towns and villages (I'm not sure about cities).

Edited January 19, 2012 by JohnnyOV

[DCJPells 29]

You are correct.

A town cannot run any type of fire protection in NYS. They have no power or levy over the operations of the district as they are two separate governing entities. All they are allowed to do, is collect the taxes that the district asks for, and hands the check over to them each tax year. I'll use Yorktown as an example: The Yorktown Heights Fire Department, does not exist. The Yorktown Heights Engine Company Number 1, which is a social organization that supplies the manpower, and the Yorktown Heights Fire District which sets the operating budget and purchases all the equipment and apparatus for the Engine Company members to use exist. They work in operation together to provide fire protection for the town, but in the legal sense, are no way a department of the town, or a department at all. The Chief answers to and works closely with the Board of Fire Commissioners of the district

I'm pretty sure I have this right, but Cities and Villages have an actual Fire Department in their government (a department of 'The city of X" = X fire department). The Croton Fire Department, is an actual department that falls under the Village of Croton - on - Hudson and subsequently answers to the Village Board which sets its expenditures at the recommendations of the Chief of the department. As a real mind turner, they also contract out with parts of Cortlandt for Fire protection. There is no "Fire District" line per se. This is why when Tarrytown had their LODD, the Village was slapped with "Serious Violations" from PESH,"The Village of Tarrytown exposed the employees of the FD (Fire Department) by not developing a permit-required confined space entry program, or provided the necessary training." (http://tarrytown.pat...-manhole-deaths) Had this happened in a town with a fire district, the town itself would have 0 liability.

edit: if consolidation were to occur, there would have to be one large Fire District. i.e. "The Northern Westchester fire District" which could span across towns and villages (I'm not sure about cities).

Yes there is a fire department in a fire district. Taken right from town law:

"11-a. The members of the fire department of the fire district shall

meet at a time and place designated by the board of fire commissioners

on the Thursday following the first Tuesday in April of each year and

nominate persons for the offices of chief and such assistant chiefs as

may be provided for in the rules and regulations...."

The Fire Department is all members from the Chief down. Commissioners are not members of the Fire Department but are in charge of the Fire District.

A town can have a contract for fire protection called a Fire Protection District.

Edited January 19, 2012 by DCJPells

[Bnechis 3,961]

If it's a town there would still have to be a fire district, right? I thought it was pointed out in another thread that town's cannot be in charge of a fire district, only villages and cities.

THats correct unless there has been special legislation and I believe the only one is Town of Mamaroneck.

"The Northern Westchester fire District" which could span across towns and villages (I'm not sure about cities).

Currently Cities can not be included in Fire Districts.

[LTNRFD 266]

THats correct unless there has been special legislation and I believe the only one is Town of Mamaroneck.

Barry is correct. The Town of Mamaroneck Fire District #1 is run by a board of fire commissioners that is totally made up by the current Town Board. The town supervisor appoints the liaison from the BOFC to the fire council. The TMFD fire council runs the department along with the chiefs and the BOFC approves any major policy changes that the fire council enacts. The BOFC handles the money end and the fire council the administrative end.

[ptwatson 82]

For the sake of saving tax dollars it can not only be the FD' to consolodate. In Eastchester for example there is one FD that covers the entire town Easchester, Tuckahoe and Bronxville also one VAC but there are three PD's, 3 DPW', 3 school district. Now imagine the savings if they all consolodated into one PD, DPW, etc and its not only Eastchester.The old model of the turn of the last century is no longer feasable in todays economy. Dept's with in town's and villages need to become one.

[dwcfireman 656]

Three upstate New York fire districts are taking steps to merge together. http://www.democrata...pnews|text|Home

These three districts are from my home territory. I'm very familiar with who they are, what their respective capabilities are, and how they operate. Up to recent these districts relied on heavy mutual aid agreements to ensure the availability of apparatus and manpower, and I applaud them on taking the step to further mitigate the ongoing problems of the volunteer fire service.

Hamlin, Walker, Morton...Congratulations on what I hope is named the North West Joint Fire District!

[helicopper 1,050]

For the sake of saving tax dollars it can not only be the FD' to consolodate. In Eastchester for example there is one FD that covers the entire town Easchester, Tuckahoe and Bronxville also one VAC but there are three PD's, 3 DPW', 3 school district. Now imagine the savings if they all consolodated into one PD, DPW, etc and its not only Eastchester.The old model of the turn of the last century is no longer feasable in todays economy. Dept's with in town's and villages need to become one.

100% correct.

Kudo's to the FD's that are getting ahead of the curve and doing it on their terms.

[sympathomedic 383]

Anyone who can answer this is probably too old to use a web site, but does anyone know why our group of wise, diligent public servants in Albany set up NYS law in this peculiar way? A city and a village can run its own fire suppression, but a Town cannot? Does anyone know why and how the Town Of Mamaroneck somehow managed to escape this insanity? Could other Towns do that?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Anyone who can answer this is probably too old to use a web site, but does anyone know why our group of wise, diligent public servants in Albany set up NYS law in this peculiar way? A city and a village can run its own fire suppression, but a Town cannot?

Was done over 100 years ago. Its anybody's guess as to why.

Does anyone know why and how the Town Of Mamaroneck somehow managed to escape this insanity? Could other Towns do that?

The town asked it rep in Albany and they passed special legislation to make it happen. We have 1,000's of "special" laws on the books that affect just 1 community. The local rep. gets everyone to back his legsilation in exchange for his vote on their legislation and he comes home a "hero" for getting local legislation.

There is never any thought as to how this effects the community (good or bad), taxes, or the state as a whole.

Could it be done today...YES...but it much harder to get past Albany's "3 men in a room"

[ffp20 14]

THats correct unless there has been special legislation and I believe the only one is Town of Mamaroneck.

Currently Cities can not be included in Fire Districts.

The Town of Hartwick, in Otsego county is another.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Good job by those Depts. If your a Dept thats on the bubble about consolidation its better to do something on your terms rather then having it done for you.

[helicopper 1,050]

Good job by those Depts. If your a Dept thats on the bubble about consolidation its better to do something on your terms rather then having it done for you.

Isn't everyone on the bubble these days?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Good job by those Depts. If your a Dept thats on the bubble about consolidation its better to do something on your terms rather then having it done for you.

Isn't everyone on the bubble these days?

Yes we all are.....but most either do not see this or do not believe it.

[petervonb 9]

There is no hard and fast rule that consolidation of fire companies (in fire protection districts) and/or fire departments (in fire districts) into one larger district will lead to financial savings.

If paid employees are involved, and those employees have paid supervisors and paid managers and paid department heads, etc., etc., there is a good chance there could be cost savings with consolidation - that's why it might make sense to consolidate DPWs, PDs, school districts, etc.

With volunteer companies and departments - usually with no paid employees, it is a whole different financial ballgame to begin with and the only way to see if consolidation makes sense is to conduct a very, very thorough review of all the groups' financials, operating methods, SOGs, etc., and those financials would include everything plus the kitchen sink - mortgages, leases, investments, equipment ages and other asset valuations, and on and on - along with tax assessed valuations and rates.

In the meantime, the smart thing for all those fire companies and departments to do is constantly make extra, extra efforts to work together in every way possible. First thing is to stop worrying about sharing information. Like, how is it really going to hurt if you tell the officials of one company all about how you operate your own? Exactly what really important secrets do you have (especially in this day and age of FOILs)?

After getting past the fear of loss of power by sharing info, the next thing is to start planning a whole bunch of things together, especially automatic mutual aid - and that could very well include things like rearranging responses based on closest apparatus, combined with response analyses. For instance, it doesn't do much good to have truck A from company X always be the first due responder to location M in Y's area, because A is closer to M than Y's nearest truck, if truck A can only get manned quickly at night.

Along with all those automatic responses, don't forget you have to have written legal contracts with all parties to particular agreed response protocols - not just a verbal deal between chiefs (EXCEPT, the first step WILL probably be a verbal deal between Chiefs and notification by both to the dispatching agency, but many of the response deals will eventually have to involve written contracts or there will likely be many big problems with the taxpayers).

These sorts of arrangements will give members of all involved companies and departments quite some measure of comfort knowing there will be quick backup; will give residents more confidence they will get a rapid fire suppression response; and might well lead to improved ISO ratings - in turn leading to reduced fire insurance premiums. (Also, local insurance agents won't have to keep telling little white lies about exactly how far away the nearest fire apparatus that can be expected to respond is housed - often a problem technically because there are no contracts between the fire companies involved - the one in whose district the insured property is located and the one whose equipment is closer.)

When the companies and departments work at working together, they can often operate just as efficiently and effectively as might a consolidated district. It ain't easy though, and that's why it so often appears to be easier to just consolidate - truly a cop-out.

By the way, when legislation was adopted around 1934 creating the concept of fire districts and fire protection districts, most Towns were rural and the fire protection was provided by - and usually paid for by - volunteer organizations, and the Town governments were not paying them much, if anything at all. The District concept made it possible to create a payment method outside the Town government, and that was often extremely important.

Enough on that angle for now though - it is fodder for more study and commentary later.

[Doc 11]

The Town of Hartwick, in Otsego county is another.

The Town of Vestal is yet another. The Vestal Town Board is also the board of commissioners, who takes recommendations from a fire advisory board that consists of the chiefs, captains, and Lt's from the four companies.

Back when I was up there, in my opinion, it seemed to work out fine. The town board was responsive and favorable to the departments needs, but that was always subject to change with the next election cycle.

Just some observations; not necessarily anything I saw first hand...

A department in this arrangement has to spend a lot more time and energy educating its fiscal leadership as to the realities and needs of a fire department when the FD is only one of a dozen or so town departments vying for dollars and support. It's not exactly ideal or easy to swallow when life-saving service funding is accorded the same budgetary priority (or less) as new swing sets and benches for the park that floods every year. It also can create an adversarial situation, where the FD members are viewed by other townsfolk as a big, evil voting block that needs regular defeating at the polls. You can actually have self-identified "pro-FD" and anti-FD" candidates for town board. Having the budgeting process and financing done by a board who is elected on a single issue (fire protection) is certainly easier (but also potentially extravagant) than a board that has to consider many more, and better organized, special interests when it comes to allocating funding priority. But city and village FD's have been coping with that since the beginning and seem to make out OK.