Alarms / Notifications to Fire Department

[Remember585 815]

I'm hoping at least one of you can help me here.

Our Fire Department has been dispatched by 60 Control for over three years. Last year, we requested a separate phone number for fire alarms and other fire department business that would forward directly to our dispatchers at 60 Control. Sadly, our police department has convinced our village administrators that it is necessary for all of our calls to first go to them, so they can be notified, and then notify 60 Control to dispatch us.

As you can imagine, I (and most others) feel this is doing nothing more than delaying notification to us. As many of you know, I work at 60 Control, and prior to that I worked other dispatch centers as well. I know that most fire departments have their own telephone numbers for their own purposes and so do the police. Our village, around the time E911 came into Westchester, stopped giving out our old phone number and told everyone to call one number for FD/PD/EMS (which at the time made perfect sense).

What I am looking for is this:

1. I am told there exists a NYS law that requires fire alarm companies to first notify the fire department before making any contact to the premise, keyholders, etc. I can't find it.

2. What, if any, NFPA standards are out there pertaining to response times, dispatch centers, etc. that would help my cause. (NFPA 1221?)

3. What, if any, impact does delaying our notification have on ISO ratings?

I appreciate everyone's assistance and hope someone has the answers I am looking for. Apparently the common sense approach I have that sending a fire alarm to the police first is as dumb as sending a burglar alarm to the fire department first isn't a convincing enough approach.

Thanking you all in advance.

[TimesUp 148]

Delaying sending a call to the proper agency is just asking for trouble. Why anyone would want it to be routine is beyond me. Bad ideas are routine sometimes. Good luck trying to fix it.

[Remember585 815]

Does anyone know if NFPA 72 would have any pertinent information for my cause?

Thanks...

[antiquefirelt 994]

Does anyone know if NFPA 72 would have any pertinent information for my cause?

Thanks...

NFPA 72 will likely just require "Fire Department Notification" via one of 4 means, but each of those would likely only go so far as to connect to your FD;s 911 system. If the system is such that the calls go to your PD, NFPA 72 won't help you change your end of the system. It generally provides the requirements for FD notification and basically accessing the FD's 911 system. I'd think 1221 would certainly be more likely to spell out a model system that includes the fewest amount of call handlers along the way. Why any PD would want the added liability in handling these calls mid-notification stream is beyond me, sounds like they want to ensure they have a call volume by ensuring they're assigned to each call?

[helicopper 1,050]

Can't the homeowners' just give 60-Control's number as the FD number?

[Remember585 815]

Can't the homeowners' just give 60-Control's number as the FD number?

One would think so. Our Village Manager was sending a letter to all alarm permit holders telling them the number to call is the PD #.

[dashield 61]

One would think so. Our Village Manager was sending a letter to all alarm permit holders telling them the number to call is the PD #.

I am looking through NFPA 72...based on the context of your original question I believe the section I found won't help you because it is not defined well.

NFPA 72 section 26.3.1 Alarm Signal Disposition. "Except as permitted by 29.7.8.2, all fire alarms signals received by a supervising station shall be immediatley retransmitted to the communications center."

According to you the alarm company is notifying a "communications center" just not the most appropriate. The NYS Fire Code just refers you to NFPA 72.

29.7.8.2 states "Remote monitoring stations shall be permitted to verify alarm signals prior to reporting them to the fire service, provided that the verification process does not delay notification fo rmor ethan 90 seconds."

I hope this might help you

[JohnnyOV 2]

Them being notified first helps justify keeping the PSAP at the PD station. Why give up a PSAP for the benefit of public safety, when you can score oodles of money from the government for running one.... hence the 50-60ish PSAPs in the county.

[LTNRFD 266]

Them being notified first helps justify keeping the PSAP at the PD station. Why give up a PSAP for the benefit of public safety, when you can score oodles of money from the government for running one.... hence the 50-60ish PSAPs in the county.

When you say 'justify keeping PSAP at the PD station" , are you referring to the E911 answering point or just a local dispatch center? The E911 has nothing to do with central station notifications due to the fact that most central stations are out of state. If they were to dial 911 they would get the local PD/FD/EMS.

If the call goes directly to 60-control and the PD is afraid they won't be in the loop, then give the PD dispatcher a pager with stored messaging and they will be notified at the same time the FD is notified. This way the PD is in the loop without the liability and without delayed notification to the FD.

[JohnnyOV 2]

When you say 'justify keeping PSAP at the PD station" , are you referring to the E911 answering point or just a local dispatch center? The E911 has nothing to do with central station notifications due to the fact that most central stations are out of state. If they were to dial 911 they would get the local PD/FD/EMS.

Yeah, sorry. The E911 at the PD station. Our FD alarms co's are issued the7 digit number routed to 60-control, much like others.

My point was kinda off topic, but just a huge gripe I have with the overall way 911/notification is run in this county, and I was just venting. Sorry for the confusion

If the call goes directly to 60-control and the PD is afraid they won't be in the loop, then give the PD dispatcher a pager with stored messaging and they will be notified at the same time the FD is notified. This way the PD is in the loop without the liability and without delayed notification to the FD.

I know of one or two departments that do this already, which is the way it should be done if communications are going to continue to be run this way.

[SmokeEatter40 8]

Notification is key. Much to often distpatches are drastically affected by not making a call to 911. And what about facilities which refuse to notify dispatch centers of an activation. I know of a few locally whom "will not" call 911.

[SteveOFD 176]

John,

As an owner of a Security System installation company, and board member of Regional Alarm and System Integarators Association (covering Westchester, Rockland & Putnam Counties) dashield has listed the applicable parts of NFPA 72 - 2010 edition.

You may have an out with your local ordinance. I will PM you with the points.

Steve

[Bnechis 3,961]

3. What, if any, impact does delaying our notification have on ISO ratings?

No impact, because the points were already lost by having local PD having the PSAP. ISO wants all calls going to a single call handling facility without transfers.

[SECTMB 612]

Your problem will go away as soon as a lawsuit for wrongful death is initiated against the Village for delaying the FD's response. Its just another example of the fiefdom mentality that they can't give up their control to 60 Control.

[INIT915 1,119]

Your problem will go away as soon as a lawsuit for wrongful death is initiated against the Village for delaying the FD's response. Its just another example of the fiefdom mentality that they can't give up their control to 60 Control.

Just out of curiosity, what is the legal basis for your statement?

[Remember585 815]

Anoter question for all...

I am told that there is a NYS law requiring alarm companies to first notify the fire department BEFORE calling the premise and/or keyholders. If this is true, does anyone know the specific law and where I could find it?

Thanks.

[SECTMB 612]

Just out of curiosity, what is the legal basis for your statement?

My 'legal basis' is the recognition that there is an ambulance chasing lawyer for every situation. How hard would it be to connect the dots of delayed response due to multi agency involvement to a tragic outcome? Not very. All you have to do is make the inference that had the call gone directly to fire dispatch rather to the PD and then to the FD and you may have had a better outcome and you're on the way to a pay day.

This is still the country of litigation lottery and you can always find a lawyer willing to play on you behalf.

[INIT915 1,119]

My 'legal basis' is the recognition that there is an ambulance chasing lawyer for every situation. How hard would it be to connect the dots of delayed response due to multi agency involvement to a tragic outcome? Not very. All you have to do is make the inference that had the call gone directly to fire dispatch rather to the PD and then to the FD and you may have had a better outcome and you're on the way to a pay day.

This is still the country of litigation lottery and you can always find a lawyer willing to play on you behalf.

But, as we've discussed before, more than once, it's well established law that in cases such as this, there is no liability on the municipality. (Refer to my previous post outlining it in detail for references.)

[helicopper 1,050]

My 'legal basis' is the recognition that there is an ambulance chasing lawyer for every situation. How hard would it be to connect the dots of delayed response due to multi agency involvement to a tragic outcome? Not very. All you have to do is make the inference that had the call gone directly to fire dispatch rather to the PD and then to the FD and you may have had a better outcome and you're on the way to a pay day.

This is still the country of litigation lottery and you can always find a lawyer willing to play on you behalf.

Even ambulance chasing lawyers must have the legal basis for litigation. The series of dots must be founded in law and precedent in order to be successful. In 25 years I've seen very few successful lawsuits against emergency services or municipalities regarding emergency services. Not to say that it's not possible

While we are definitely a litigious society, inferences and recognition that there is a better way to do things don't by themselves support a claim.