Hudson Valley Departments are Key in NYC Terror Attack Response

[firedude 985]

Putnam, Westchester are key to response in case of NYC terror attack, state security chief says

11:29 PM, Jan. 6, 2012. Written byTerence Corcoran

CARMEL — The northern suburbs may not be a prime target for a terrorist attack, but if New York City is hit again, Westchester and Putnam counties could be thrust into major roles, the governor’s appointee for commissioner of homeland security said Friday at a forum for emergency responders

Full Lohud Article

[JJB531 652]

Looks like the Director of Homeland Security needs a reality check into the workings of Emergency Services in the Hudson Valley. Most agencies have a hard enough time handling simple calls for service as it is, I don't know what kind of "major role" he is expecting agencies to play in a NYC terror attack.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Paging for any available driver for the bioattack, anyone, Bueller? Bueller?

Note: this is not to respond into NYC, we all know everyone would show for that, we want you to run a decon station in lets say Greenburgh.

Oh thats right the 6 depts. there said they wanted nothing to due with being a mass decon unit (MDU) and they never got the training and the equipment that was "assigned" still sits at DES rotting.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And the Director of Homeland Security does not oversee EMS. The county ran at least 12 mass decon classes for the volunteer Fire & EMS agencies. Very good turnout from volunteer fire. Actually everyone was shocked at how good the turnout was. The VAC's were a no-show. They were called....no response. They were offered training at their buildings for there schedule (day, evening, weekend)...no response, so they were never trained in mass decon.

Good thing we are "key" in a terror attack.

Anyone know how many taxpayers commute to NYS each day, that in an attack might be coming back contaminated?

How many are volunteers in Westchester, is another interesting question.

[louis 1]

In stead of sending Northern counties to N.Y.C. The City of New York and Westchester County should devise a mutual aid program, where certain departments wether paid or volunteer respond to a firehouse in N.Y.C no matter what. Example: Volunteer Fire Department in Sothern Wetchester will respond to Engine 52 Ladder 52 in Riverdale section of Bronx ( Firehouse off Saw Mill Pky ), if there is a situation in Manhattan and they respond. If this Firedepartment in westchester knows that they will allways be doing mutual aid to this area they can get maps, proper tools, hoses, and other equipment that they might need for the neighbor hood. There is no plan in place. Instead all mutal aid will go to Yonkers raceway and wait for assingments, and then it will be to late It's time to be pro-active. We need traning between all departments. But because some are paid and some are volunteer departments will never play good in the sand box. Is's time to put that to rest and be ready( hope to God, never again) for a problem in N.Y.C.

Edited January 9, 2012 by louis

[JJB531 652]

And the Director of Homeland Security does not oversee EMS. The county ran at least 12 mass decon classes for the volunteer Fire & EMS agencies. Very good turnout from volunteer fire. Actually everyone was shocked at how good the turnout was. The VAC's were a no-show. They were called....no response. They were offered training at their buildings for there schedule (day, evening, weekend)...no response, so they were never trained in mass decon.

Without much thought I came up with 4 simple reasons for this:

#1 - The majority of EMS providers are lazy and struggle to find the motivation to get off the couch for a job.

#2 - The majority of EMS providers are overworked (in the number of hours they work, not necessarily amount of work they do during those hours), so the last thing most want to do is training outside of the CME's and Call Audits they are forced to do to maintain their certifications.

#3 - The majority of EMS providers don't understand the importance of Awareness and Operations level training with respect to HazMat and some aspects of Technical Rescue, especially awareness level training in Confined Space, Water, Collapse, and Trench.

#4 - The majority of EMS providers don't understand their potential role in a WMD/HazMat incident, and don't realize they could, with the proper training and equipment, play a key role in Warm Zone Operations.

So of these few reasons, which is the most prevalent? Is it laziness? Lack of understanding? Lack of motivation? Lack of caring? Lack of leadership?

[MoFire390 118]

And the Director of Homeland Security does not oversee EMS. The county ran at least 12 mass decon classes for the volunteer Fire & EMS agencies. Very good turnout from volunteer fire. Actually everyone was shocked at how good the turnout was. The VAC's were a no-show. They were called....no response. They were offered training at their buildings for there schedule (day, evening, weekend)...no response, so they were never trained in mass decon.

Good thing we are "key" in a terror attack.

Anyone know how many taxpayers commute to NYS each day, that in an attack might be coming back contaminated?

How many are volunteers in Westchester, is another interesting question.

this is the first I am hearing about this. Knew that the Montrose VA went up with Haz-Mat 3. From my understanding it was an invite only party.

[38ff 250]

So who backfills all the HV depts?

[Bnechis 3,961]

In stead of sending Northern counties to N.Y.C. The City of New York and Westchester County should devise a mutual aid program, where certain departments wether paid or volunteer respond to a firehouse in N.Y.C no matter what. Example: Volunteer Fire Department in Sothern Wetchester will respond to Engine 52 Ladder 52 in Riverdale section of Bronx ( Firehouse off Saw Mill Pky ), if there is a situation in Manhattan and they respond. If this Firedepartment in westchester knows that they will allways be doing mutual aid to this area they can get maps, proper tools, hoses, and other equipment that they might need for the neighbor hood. There is no plan in place. Instead all mutal aid will go to Yonkers raceway and wait for assingments, and then it will be to late It's time to be pro-active. We need traning between all departments. But because some are paid and some are volunteer departments will never play good in the sand box. Is's time to put that to rest and be ready( hope to God, never again) for a problem in N.Y.C.

There is a plan in place. The career depts in So. Westchester have drilled in NYC annually on it for the last 5+ years. FDNY still wants a check in at Yonkers Raceway for accountability, but that is only taking about 15-20 minutes. Part of that is they may not want us deploying to station A, when they need us at X. Its easier to make that call then.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

And the Director of Homeland Security does not oversee EMS. The county ran at least 12 mass decon classes for the volunteer Fire & EMS agencies. Very good turnout from volunteer fire. Actually everyone was shocked at how good the turnout was. The VAC's were a no-show. They were called....no response. They were offered training at their buildings for there schedule (day, evening, weekend)...no response, so they were never trained in mass decon.

Good thing we are "key" in a terror attack.

Anyone know how many taxpayers commute to NYS each day, that in an attack might be coming back contaminated?

How many are volunteers in Westchester, is another interesting question.

How limited would in/out access be to commuters who needed to get out of the NYC? wouldn't most exit points be blocked off?

[ny10570 745]

From Manhattan you can eventually control access. Not so easy in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. Lets say its a bio attack. How long until you know the attack occurred? If its 20 minutes then you already have exposed people in the outer boroughs and NJ with others on their way to the suburbs. Even a chemical attack is going to result in contaminated people fleeing the scene and spreading contamination. Depending on the chemical and where they are they could easily make a commuter train and start making people sick there. There have been plenty of accounts of disaster survivors simply walking away from the incident not realizing people would be looking for them.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

HAZMAT is the redheaded stepchild for a lot of people. They don't want to accept that this is a part of our mandate now, and that we have to prepare for it. One of the reasons I'm glad CT included HAZMAT/WMD Operations as a REQUIRED part of the Firefighter 1 Curriculum now. If only we could get it taught in EMT classes we'd be all set.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Most people's first reaction is to get out of harms way, and then head to the safety of home. Via train, car, bus, taxi etc, these are the people will be seeing in Westchester/Putnam/Rockland etc. We have all seen how long it is to get Metro North, Amtrak, NYCTA Subways to shut down service on one track when a person is struck by a train. Call and ask to shut down the entire system, it will take a while. Just remember the #2 Subway stops just blocks Mt Vernon, with nearby Metro North Trains, and Westchester Bee Line buses. The #5 subway to Dyre Ave is just as close to Mt Vernon, but with less connections to mass transit. From midtown Manhattan to Mt Vernon only takes a few minutes if you catch the trains right, Harlem to White Plains in 20 minutes. How many people did you see on 9/11 who ended up walking out of lower Manhattan covered in dust? Thousands. If NYC Emergency Services (FD/EMS/PD) are busy handling the situation, there is not going to be a lot they can do to 'shut down the border' to Westchester. During 9/11 precincts like the 50 Pct (Riverdale) were busy trying to close the Broadway Bridge and cover sensitive targets within their area such as churches, mosques, synagogues, schools, guns stores, and other predetermined area while still answering all the normal calls they get. Car Accidents, sick people, alarms sounding will still be coming in if the 911 call center is not totally overwhelmed at that point. People act like $%^$holes at crimes, car accidents, etc when you tell the road is shut. Try it during a terror attack, I bet any attempt to contain contaminated people to one area will be next to impossible.

The point is people who have been exposed to whatever(chemical, biological, radiological) during a terrorist incident in NYC will almost definitely make it to our areas. Some symptoms make take just hours to appear, others maybe days. The difficulty breathing call hours after an incident, is it someone with asthma stressed out, or someone exposed to anthrax? Skin burns from a explosion/fire or from radiation? You will not know until you get on scene and start you assessments. Then what?

A train discharges it passengers in say Bronxville at 11 am on a Tuesday, within a hour of terrorist attack in lower Manhattan due to PD/government calling for mass transit to shut down. On that train may hundreds of people who are contaminated or exposed to an incident. How many people will be able to respond? How long to someone realizes that there maybe a problem? What are the handful of police officers not responding to the NYC Border going to do with a large crowd of scared and panicked commuters now dumped off it a small village? How many of those responders know how to handle decon? Getting scared yet?

Edited January 9, 2012 by grumpyff

[SageVigiles 1,194]

But we bought all these big expensive Prime Movers and Mass Decontamination Trailers! And handed out thousands of Tychem suits! And tons of Mk 1 Nerve Agent kits! OF COURSE we're prepared!!!!!!

In this instance, its not that the Emperor has no clothes. The Emperor has plenty of clothes, he just doesn't know when or how to wear them. Or where to find them. Or how to take care of them. Or how to take them off.

All the tools in the world mean nothing if you don't know how to use them. EVERY single responder should, at the BARE MINIMUM, know the very basics of these systems' operations and how to select, don, decon and doff the correct PPE for these incidents.

With that, we should also be planning to replace some of this equipment in a responsible fashion. CT is now realizing the maintenance on the Mass Decon Units is outlandish and is now pushing decon tents (which would have been a better idea in the first place, since a simple pickup truck could move them instead of a gigantic rescue/ambulance looking monstrosity that the state handed out AFTER they realized no one could pull the trailers.) The Mark 1 kits are expiring, the Tychem suits are failing, and there's no money to replace them. Feel safe yet?

[v85 212]

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed, like usual, is staffing.

Honestly, during the day when most terrorist attacks are likely to occur, can you staff the apparatus to send to the decon area, and still have coverage back in your first due area.

I think the only solution to this problem is either to have rostered duty crews or have combo/paid departments, which in this economy, good luck convicing Taxpayer Q. Pennypincher to support that idea.

[tglass59 27]

Like everything else in our line of work it comes down to two important issues, manpower and funding. While some feel this in not the case let me ashore you those two components go hand and hand, not just for a terrorist threat or attack but for the the firefighters and cops who perform their job 24/7/365.

[louis 1]

There is a plan in place. The career depts in So. Westchester have drilled in NYC annually on it for the last 5+ years. FDNY still wants a check in at Yonkers Raceway for accountability, but that is only taking about 15-20 minutes. Part of that is they may not want us deploying to station A, when they need us at X. Its easier to make that call then.

I agree with that. But if you go north of Yonkers or Mt. Vernon and White plains its mostly volunteer depts. Example my Department went down on 9/11 to a staging area 2. If a Bronx Dept goes to the city the plan would be for the next northern dept to fill that dept and so on and so on. To send every dept to a staging is fine untilo you have a secondary device in a soft target area. or a standard call by moving every northern dept. down one and keep filling in the empty ones there will still be protection. But there's no plan or talks about this or how comuntions would work. I hate to say it but I feel we haven't changed for the better since 9/11

[firecapt32 282]

The plan in place was developed by NYC and the State of New York. It calls for a "montoring/assigement" check in at Yonkers Raceway. This check in is for ALL/ANY fire apparatus going into the city including Fire Chief vehicles.

The plan call for each department so submit names at the check point so they can be run through the computer system so that only those with the proper training can respond. FDNY will be at the Yonkers checkin point as well as State OFPC.

Again the Plan was made between FDNY and the State of New York. It calls for 5 man engine and 5 man truck companies and 5 man rescues.

Those with FF1 FF2 safety/survival FAST will be allowed to respond.I believe there are other requirment.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE NEW YORK STATE CREDENTIALS YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE CITY.

All personnel will be computer checked. If you cannot suply a 5 man apparatus you might have to join forces and team up with another department.

Westchester will only be assigned to Bronx fire stations. There is another check point set up at Citi field and another in Staten Island.

No one will be allowed in the city unles you have the "proper cerdentials" issued only at the check in points.

Again this system was a combined FDNY NYS(OFPC) joint undertaking.

Westchester units from suthern Weastchster-Yonker/Mt Vernon/New Rochelle/Greenburgh/White Plains as well as units from Pelham/Pelham Manor and the FDVA have all participiated in this intra departmental training.

I am sure that we all hope and pray that we will never have to implement this plan.

[helicopper 1,050]

this is the first I am hearing about this. Knew that the Montrose VA went up with Haz-Mat 3. From my understanding it was an invite only party.

I'm not sure it was "invite only" but I'm pretty sure it was for the brass hats and big guns and not line dogs.

[demps121 39]

Hey Fire Capt32 what does NYC do with NJ departments? how does NYC check NJ credentials?

[helicopper 1,050]

In stead of sending Northern counties to N.Y.C. The City of New York and Westchester County should devise a mutual aid program, where certain departments wether paid or volunteer respond to a firehouse in N.Y.C no matter what. Example: Volunteer Fire Department in Sothern Wetchester will respond to Engine 52 Ladder 52 in Riverdale section of Bronx ( Firehouse off Saw Mill Pky ), if there is a situation in Manhattan and they respond. If this Firedepartment in westchester knows that they will allways be doing mutual aid to this area they can get maps, proper tools, hoses, and other equipment that they might need for the neighbor hood. There is no plan in place. Instead all mutal aid will go to Yonkers raceway and wait for assingments, and then it will be to late It's time to be pro-active. We need traning between all departments. But because some are paid and some are volunteer departments will never play good in the sand box. Is's time to put that to rest and be ready( hope to God, never again) for a problem in N.Y.C.

There is a plan in place. The career depts in So. Westchester have drilled in NYC annually on it for the last 5+ years. FDNY still wants a check in at Yonkers Raceway for accountability, but that is only taking about 15-20 minutes. Part of that is they may not want us deploying to station A, when they need us at X. Its easier to make that call then.

The plan in place was developed by NYC and the State of New York. It calls for a "montoring/assigement" check in at Yonkers Raceway. This check in is for ALL/ANY fire apparatus going into the city including Fire Chief vehicles.

The plan call for each department so submit names at the check point so they can be run through the computer system so that only those with the proper training can respond. FDNY will be at the Yonkers checkin point as well as State OFPC.

Again the Plan was made between FDNY and the State of New York. It calls for 5 man engine and 5 man truck companies and 5 man rescues.

Those with FF1 FF2 safety/survival FAST will be allowed to respond.I believe there are other requirment.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE NEW YORK STATE CREDENTIALS YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE CITY.

All personnel will be computer checked. If you cannot suply a 5 man apparatus you might have to join forces and team up with another department.

Westchester will only be assigned to Bronx fire stations. There is another check point set up at Citi field and another in Staten Island.

No one will be allowed in the city unles you have the "proper cerdentials" issued only at the check in points.

Again this system was a combined FDNY NYS (OFPC) joint undertaking.

Westchester units from southern Weastchster-Yonkers/Mt Vernon/New Rochelle/Greenburgh/White Plains as well as units from Pelham/Pelham Manor and the FDVA have all participiated in this intra departmental training.

I am sure that we all hope and pray that we will never have to implement this plan.

There is a plan for mutual aid to NYC and I'm sure the same holds policy for credentialing and accountability applies to Long Island resources and New Jersey resources just with different mobilization points (Citi Field and Staten Island as mentioned above).

The new Commissioner's comments aren't so much about us going to NYC but rather the incident victims relocating to Westchester and points north...

"If something happens in New York City, people will move north," Hauer said. "We've got to ensure that something happening in the city does not bring you to your knees."

How prepared are we to deal with a train load of 1500 injured or contaminated people arriving at ANY station in Westchester?

The points about us not being able to cover day to day calls is significant. What will we do about it? Tune back in to this thread 5 years from now and I'll bet you'll hear almost all the same discussions.

[helicopper 1,050]

I agree with that. But if you go north of Yonkers or Mt. Vernon and White plains its mostly volunteer depts. Example my Department went down on 9/11 to a staging area 2. If a Bronx Dept goes to the city the plan would be for the next northern dept to fill that dept and so on and so on. To send every dept to a staging is fine untilo you have a secondary device in a soft target area. or a standard call by moving every northern dept. down one and keep filling in the empty ones there will still be protection. But there's no plan or talks about this or how comuntions would work. I hate to say it but I feel we haven't changed for the better since 9/11

One of the reasons that resources would respond to specific designated locations is that they can be provided with adequate security and prevent the type of incident you're referring to.

As for the mutual aid move-down, don't assume it would be to NYC. It could be to the train stations at Yonkers, White Plains and New Rochelle (for example). Or, it could be to your local train station to meet and assess/triage everyone coming off trains from NYC. That alone would be a major challenge.

We have changed since 9/11 and I would suggest that its for the better but in a cost/benefit analysis I'd say we weren't getting our money's worth.

[NJMedic 96]

The plan in place was developed by NYC and the State of New York. It calls for a "montoring/assigement" check in at Yonkers Raceway. This check in is for ALL/ANY fire apparatus going into the city including Fire Chief vehicles.

Again the Plan was made between FDNY and the State of New York. It calls for 5 man engine and 5 man truck companies and 5 man rescues.

Those with FF1 FF2 safety/survival FAST will be allowed to respond.I believe there are other requirment.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE NEW YORK STATE CREDENTIALS YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE CITY.

All personnel will be computer checked. If you cannot suply a 5 man apparatus you might have to join forces and team up with another department.

Westchester will only be assigned to Bronx fire stations. There is another check point set up at Citi field and another in Staten Island.

No one will be allowed in the city unles you have the "proper cerdentials" issued only at the check in points.

Again this system was a combined FDNY NYS(OFPC) joint undertaking.

Westchester units from suthern Weastchster-Yonker/Mt Vernon/New Rochelle/Greenburgh/White Plains as well as units from Pelham/Pelham Manor and the FDVA have all participiated in this intra departmental training.

I am sure that we all hope and pray that we will never have to implement this plan.

Can't speak to the fire operations but NJ EMD has exercised our mutual aid pact with FDNY several times in the last ten years. In a nut shell FDNY will put a request into NYC OEM for resources and the OEM watch desk will reach out to the Regional EMS Communications Center in Newark to activate the NJ Plan. NJ assets can and would usually report to a NJ staging area and a final check at the crossings before going into NYC. Typically arranged in strike team or task force (NIMS concepts) and either escorted by a NJ EMS Supervisor or meet on the City side by FDNY Lt and brought to a NYC staging area. The desire is to place one FDNY member on board the NJ ambulance. No chase cars are used, all paramedics are teamed up with a BLS ambulance. Of course if there is a ALS ambulance they remain the same. NJ has responded to NYC on 2/93, 09/11, 2003 power failure and last year's blizzard. Operational period are 12 hours. Last year NJ was in NYC for 48 hours. No more than 3 EMTs with photo ID are allowed per ambulance. no specialty vehicles. If specialty vehicles are needed FDNY knows what we have and we know what they have. We meet we FDNY every quarter. I would have to think there is equivalent planning with Westchester and Nassau Counties

On a side note……On 9/11 we deconn'ed over 25,000 people coming over via boat and landing in Hoboken. Of course we didn't have 25,000 sets of re-dress and rather than having 25,000 people running around naked they we deconn'ed with the clothes on. I think one two people objects and once the two nice 6ft7 NJ State Troopers talked to them they elected to get de'conned as well. Extra attention was paid to those who were injured or dust covered.

It's is rather easy to shut down the transit system at a moment's notice. Trains stop at the first station, buses pull off to the side. The is already a plan in place.

On the whole there is a whole team that has been working on a evacuation planning for the last several years. http://regionalcatpl...gional_ep.shtml

[ex-commish 490]

I am sure that we all hope and pray that we will never have to implement this plan.

Amen to that!!!!

[firecapt32 282]

Capt Demps

I only know what I was told and it had to do with Westchester and the Yonkers Check in point. As I stated the agreement is between FDNY/NYS OFPC. There are much bigger and brighter brains then I have figureing this out. Westchester is "supposed" to cover the Bronx and thats it. FDNY has made the other arrangements. After all its the FDNY mutual aid plan. They have set the standard and the criteria.

Sorry Capt I left out Eastchester in the list of Departments that have particiated in the joint training.

[conman 40]

So who backfills all the HV depts?

Those of us further up the Hudson valley

[Bnechis 3,961]

So who backfills all the HV depts?

Those of us further up the Hudson valley

Since the plan calls for southern Westchester to send what it can routinly release without major hardship. And FDNY is comfortable with what we will send. Then the Hudson Valley needs to only worry about covering home. The point we have been trying to make is that a large percentage of depts do not have the ability to cover home base in the event of a terror attack.

[SmokeEatter40 8]

So many great points in this forum, and as it ws said earlier (being hAZMAT is the redheaded step child of emergency services) we may "pre-plan" for a situation, but we still end up fumbling the ball when the incident happens.

But, where to start when it come to credentials, mutual aid, back filling, fire, ems, hazmat, DOT, police, mass transit, ......

pre-planning and mutual aid are a good start. Get your staging laid out. this way you are not sending mutual aid in to unecessary locations or monkeyed around throughout a hot zone. did we not just go through cunty wide inventory listing over the last few years? And just just Engine Class, specialty teams, man power, etc. And whatever you do do not move all your pawns ahead on the board and deplete your manpower behind it.

"Mandatory".....what a big word. Who is really mandated to what? I was under the assumption that Emergency Services were working together? Firefighter 1 has applied HAZMAT Ops into the class agenda. and last I knew all responders had to be at the Operations level? Why is this not the same for EMS and Police? And the NIMS/ICS.... the process is not that difficult, yet to many department are not on the same page?

Finally, with how fast he "rats abandon the ship" we need to keep the upstate resourses here to catch the overflow. set up decon on the main highways, mass transit stops, etc.

Be safe, and lets hope we do not need these plans any time soon.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Firefighter 1 has applied HAZMAT Ops into the class agenda.

Firefighter 1's Hazmat Ops is 6-9 hours, but the regular Hazmat Ops is 15.

1)How is it possible to teach 15 hours worth of material in 6-9 hours?

2)At 15 hours the class never covered all of the requirements of the State & Federal Law:

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)

First responder operations level. First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release. They are trained to respond in a defensive fashion without actually trying to stop the release. Their function is to contain the release from a safe distance, keep it from spreading, and prevent exposures. First responders at the operational level shall have received at least eight hours of training or have had sufficient experience to objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas in addition to those listed for the awareness level and the employer shall so certify:

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(A) Knowledge of the basic hazard and risk assessment techniques.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)( Know how to select and use proper personal protective equipment provided to the first responder operational level.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)© An understanding of basic hazardous materials terms.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(D)Know how to perform basic control, containment and/or confinement operations within the capabilities of the resources and personal protective equipment available with their unit.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(E)Know how to implement basic decontamination procedures.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(F)An understanding of the relevant standard operating procedures and termination procedures.

The reason is because much of this info the state can not teach, it must come from you dept.

and last I knew all responders had to be at the Operations level? Why is this not the same for EMS and Police?

NYS DOL says the firefighters must be training to the Operations level, PD & EMS only are required to meet the Awarness Level. This is based on job function.

[LFD34 12]

IF NYC can ensure such accountability why can't every department that requests mutual aid on a daily basis expect the same. We need to enforce consistency on every incident, instead of just planning for the "big one"