Orange County's new proposed renumbering plan

[EMT111 149]

I was wondering what your opinions were on the currently proposed renumbering plan is. I'm not familiar with fire department standards, but I was surprised to see such a specific list of required equipment for each type of apparatus. It also surprised me to see almost all apparatus would be required to carry ems equipment, including oral airways, nasal airways, and O2, which I always thought required a minimum certification of EMT-B in NY, since a large chunk of departments in the county don't run medical calls or have EMTs. Is this an attempt to get more departments to run medical calls to counter the dwindling response from volunteer ems?

Apparatus Numbering and Radio Identifier Plan

Fire and Rescue Services Standards

[Newburgher 241]

Only my opinion, but I think they are making things way more complicated than they need to be. A neighboring county has a better, simpler system that has worked for years. again, my opinion.

[JetPhoto 626]

Just my opinion but the numbering looks stupid and how can they require your department to carry specific equipment are they going to pay for it?

Just remember: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

[201/65 94]

111,

While most FD's in OC don't run EMS, they all run into it, so being prepared is the name of the game. #1 cause of LODD in the US are medically related, so we need to be able to protect ourselves. As for departments that don't run automatically to EMS calls, neither of mine do, they have been dispatched when EMS is delayed or not immediately available. Just like the fire and rescue equipment on the truck, if you aren't properly trained to use it, don't.

As for the apparatus designators, I feel it is better than what we currently have, but still not great. By far the best thing out of this whole mess is the apparatus standards, they could still use some tweaks but are a great start.

Newburgher,

Whose system would you recommend? I think they all have their flaws.

Disclaimer: I had NO involvement with the development of these systems

Edited January 8, 2012 by 201/65

[201/65 94]

Just my opinion but the numbering looks stupid and how can they require your department to carry specific equipment are they going to pay for it?

Just remember: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

This is just the problem with the fire service here, everyone wants it their own way. Its all basic equipment, save a few items. The fact that my town of 27,000 has 10 engines (3- 2500 Gal +), 4 rescues, 4 trucks, 4 tankers, 4 brush, and countless utilities is the only reason to bring up equipment cost. I think its great to be able to just request a rescue and know I'm getting at least that equipment and not a utility truck with EMS equipment and a comi-tool.

[Newburgher 241]

I think Ulster has a good system. Department number, followed by apparatus number. Example: Plattekill. Chief; Car 47. Assistant chiefs: Car 47-1, 47-2, etc. Apparatus; 47-20, 47-50, etc. No department should be a single number. They should start at 10, or 11. I think Ulster starts at 15 for Accord, then they are in alphabetical order from there.

If you wanted to standardize a little, equipment numbers could be grouped as follows; Chief Officers= 1-9, engines= 10-19, rescue=20-29, truck=30-39, brush=40-49, tanker50-59, etc. I any one department, even in the town of Newburgh, would ever have more than 10 engines. Station numbers don't really matter.

Greenville: Car 15 (chief) 15-11 and 15-12 (engines) 15-20 (rescue) and 15-30(truck)

For the county officials; Coordinator; Car 36, and up from there( Don't know how many there really are)

I think it would be a whole lot easier than having so many car ones, engine ones, and truck ones on the air together. Of course, I guess that doesn't really matter anyway, since nobody is on the same frequency anyway.

Again, only my opinion

[201/65 94]

I think Ulster has a good system. Department number, followed by apparatus number. Example: Plattekill. Chief; Car 47. Assistant chiefs: Car 47-1, 47-2, etc. Apparatus; 47-20, 47-50, etc. No department should be a single number. They should start at 10, or 11. I think Ulster starts at 15 for Accord, then they are in alphabetical order from there.

If you wanted to standardize a little, equipment numbers could be grouped as follows; Chief Officers= 1-9, engines= 10-19, rescue=20-29, truck=30-39, brush=40-49, tanker50-59, etc. I any one department, even in the town of Newburgh, would ever have more than 10 engines. Station numbers don't really matter.

Greenville: Car 15 (chief) 15-11 and 15-12 (engines) 15-20 (rescue) and 15-30(truck)

For the county officials; Coordinator; Car 36, and up from there( Don't know how many there really are)

I think it would be a whole lot easier than having so many car ones, engine ones, and truck ones on the air together. Of course, I guess that doesn't really matter anyway, since nobody is on the same frequency anyway.

Again, only my opinion

Unless we're going to have the exact same system as a bordering county the system shouldn't be to similar, it would easily cause confusion during emergencies. With that said, Ulster did it right with skipping the single digits and putting the department number in front. I can see that causing confusion in OC. Then they have no rhyme or reason past the department number, and normally don't verbalize the apparatus type. On the radio you hear just "Wallkill 64-25" and "Walker Valley 63-25" problem there is one's a heavy rescue and the other a tanker.

As for the Town of Newburgh, they already have more then 10 engines, and thats not including Plattekill or Coldenham.

Edited January 8, 2012 by 201/65

[Bnechis 3,961]

Interesting equipment list.

While I am a strong advocate of standardizing units, some of there are a few questions as Its already dated.

If my engine does not have a 5,000 watt generator, its not an engine?

The last 2 engines I bought, 1 had a generator (E-25) the other (E-21) does not. Because of 12 volt LED floods, the one without the generator has more lighting.

Not much different between a squad & a heavy rescue.

Why does a ladder company need 150' x 1.5" hose and lots of addaptors?

Since both NFPA & ISO have "minimum" lists, why have a local list that is less than national standard.

Does having a "minimum" list instead of a "recommended" list, will some depts opt for the minimum? Why not make the national standard the minimum and do a recommended list that is higher as a long term goal for improvement?

[Newburgher 241]

But the town isn't one department (should be, but it's not) The fact that 63-25 and 64-25 aren't the same is the reason I suggest grouping the apparatus number to a type of apparatus. As far as not using a system because the neighbors are using it, that doesn't make a great excuse. If it works, so what. Right now you have 10 car ones showing up for a typical house fire in the Town of Newburgh already. If you are working with a neighbor from Ulster county, throw the department name in front of the number like they do now

[T. John 21]

In MN, most Counties (if not all) have adopted a plain language system for naming/identifying apparatus and resources. {Department Name} + Resource Identifier. So, for Elk River, our first due engine is "Elk River Engine 1" and our heavy rescue is "Elk River Rescue 1". Command staff is the same. Chief of Department is Chief 1 (2, 3, 4 and so on for Assistant/Deputy Chiefs) and Captains and Lieutenants fall in line (i.e. Elk River Captain 1, etc). Makes it a lot easier when crossing county lines for mutual aid (we are situated in close proximity to four counties). Works well here!

[38ff 250]

In addition to above, who is going to pick up the tab for all the relettering/regoldleafing that needs to be done?

[se36 2]

For even more confusion is when you have three station 34's in three counties that work together. Pike County Pa, and soon to be Orange County # system are alike, but have some difference. Sullivan # system is like Ulsters.

Orange-34 Otisville, Sullivan-34 Westbrookville, Pike (pa)- 34 Millrift.

[EMT111 149]

111,

While most FD's in OC don't run EMS, they all run into it, so being prepared is the name of the game. #1 cause of LODD in the US are medically related, so we need to be able to protect ourselves. As for departments that don't run automatically to EMS calls, neither of mine do, they have been dispatched when EMS is delayed or not immediately available. Just like the fire and rescue equipment on the truck, if you aren't properly trained to use it, don't.

As for the apparatus designators, I feel it is better than what we currently have, but still not great. By far the best thing out of this whole mess is the apparatus standards, they could still use some tweaks but are a great start.

I understand that, but there are departments do not do run medicals at all, ever. My local department runs three engines, a ladder, a rescue, a brush truck, a tanker, and a utility that would not fit into any category based on the current proposed system, and possibly has 10 emts at the maximum out of approximately 150 members. Each one of these kits would cost approximately $450, so how would you justify to the tax payers spending $3,150 on equipment for "just in case" that only 10 members can use and to certify more people to use it would cost $750 a person and take 6 months, and even then they could fail. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any medical equipment on a rig, but I would think that a cpr mask would be more cost effective if the entire department can use it rather than just 10 people.

[16fire5 693]

In MN, most Counties (if not all) have adopted a plain language system for naming/identifying apparatus and resources. {Department Name} + Resource Identifier. So, for Elk River, our first due engine is "Elk River Engine 1" and our heavy rescue is "Elk River Rescue 1". Command staff is the same. Chief of Department is Chief 1 (2, 3, 4 and so on for Assistant/Deputy Chiefs) and Captains and Lieutenants fall in line (i.e. Elk River Captain 1, etc). Makes it a lot easier when crossing county lines for mutual aid (we are situated in close proximity to four counties). Works well here!

That idea was immediatly dismissed because it was NIMS compliant and made too much sense.

[EdAngiolillo 61]

In MN, most Counties (if not all) have adopted a plain language system for naming/identifying apparatus and resources. {Department Name} + Resource Identifier. So, for Elk River, our first due engine is "Elk River Engine 1" and our heavy rescue is "Elk River Rescue 1". Command staff is the same. Chief of Department is Chief 1 (2, 3, 4 and so on for Assistant/Deputy Chiefs) and Captains and Lieutenants fall in line (i.e. Elk River Captain 1, etc). Makes it a lot easier when crossing county lines for mutual aid (we are situated in close proximity to four counties). Works well here!

Same down in my neck of the world. Montgomery and Chester Counties use "plain language" as well. The 911 service I work for is Station 87 and has, for example, Ambulances 87-1 through 87-6 (can be called MICU if ALS-staffed), Medic 87-1 and 87-2, and Utility 87. (I'll post some pics in better weather). Our associated fire company has Chief 47, Deputy 47, etc,...pumpers are simply ENGINE XX-1, -2, etc,.. (ENGINE XX-5 or -6 indicate pumper tankers, a throwback to our old system), ladders are LADDER XX, TOWER XX or QUINT XX, rescues are RESCUE XX and so on. Lieutenants, engineers and specialty officers are identified by a two-digit number after the station (XX-10 is the chief engineer, XX-20 = ambulance captain, XX-30 = fire police captain, etc,...).

I'm going to throw this out there: will this be a mandatory change? I know several coal country counties in PA changed their systems when they went to a county-wide 911 system and in both counties, quite a few departments simply refused to change and continue to maintain their "old" numbers.

[50-65 205]

Must have had an engineer on the commitee. So you take a simple problem (departments running out of numbers under the current system) and make it a ridiculous system. (Maybe departments should just stop buying stuff they really don't need). Putnam, Dutchess, and Ulster all have a more sensible numbering system.

In addition to this, as someone already pointed out, you are "required" to carry equipment (EMS) that only a handful of properly trained people can use. My department currently has 5 EMT's. We do not do EMS calls. The majority of our active members have no EMS training, including CPR/First aid.

So exactly what is all this stuff there for? Ourselves, I'm guessing.

What's the county going to do if you don't have all this stuff? Stop dispatching you?

[50-65 205]

That idea was immediatly dismissed because it was NIMS compliant and made too much sense.

Exactly!

[IzzyEng4 427]

This type of numbering system is utilized out in Eastern CT. Designation Type - Apparatus number - department number. It's not that complicated but there are better alternatives.

Edited January 9, 2012 by IzzyEng4

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I am not familiar with how OC does it now, or is planning to do it (have not yet read their proposed plan), but here is how Dutchess County does it.

Dutchess Reference Guide

[Guest FF/EMT 1]

In my opinion Orange County is trying something that no other county is doing. They will never be like Ulster or Dutchess which has the perfect plan to identify certain pieces of apparatus and even dispatches those appropriate for the call they are going out on. This new system is for the birds if you ask me.

[JM15 386]

In addition to this, as someone already pointed out, you are "required" to carry equipment (EMS) that only a handful of properly trained people can use. My department currently has 5 EMT's. We do not do EMS calls. The majority of our active members have no EMS training, including CPR/First aid.

A majority of your members dont have first aid or CPR? That is astonishing to me. I am not saying every firefighter should be an EMT but they should atleast have some basic training that every boy scout and most sports coaches are required to have. What if your at an auto alarm and one of your members has a massive heart attack and goes into cardiac arrest? Wait for the ambulance? This is scary when that is a very real scenario around the country in the Fire Service. Cardiac Related LODD deaths have been one of the top causes of death for Firefighters. A CPR class takes what 4 hours but it can save someones life including one of your brothers God forbid!!

[dwcfireman 656]

What I find easy (and it may be that I'm native to the area) are the numbering systems that Monroe County has (this is the greater Rochester, NY area). The system is based off battalion and department numbers, followed by apparatus type. The type, however, is not said as a word, rather a number:

Quint - 0

Ladder - 1

Engines - 2 thru 4

Rescue/Foam Engine - 5

Squad/Light Rescue - 6

Utility/Light Rescue - 7

Rescue - 8

Ambulance - 9

The county has 5 battalions, so the apparatus number starts with the battalion number, followed by department. I'll use my home town of Honeoye Falls for the example:

560 is the number for the quint, where 5 is the battalion, six is the department, and 0 represents the apparatus type. Then the engines are 562 and 563, the squad 566, and the chief vehicle/utility is 567.

**If the department has more than one station, the option is there to add the station number between FD number and the apparatus type (i.e. 4623, where the 2 represents Station 2).

As for officer designations, it's somewhat similar, where you start with the battalion number, use the letter C, rank number, then department. The chief calls in as 5C-16.

The city of Rochester has it's own numbering system separate from the county, where apparatus are simply called Engine 10 or Quint 6. They also harbor Rescues 1 thru 7 at the airport.

County vehicles all begin with 8. The 5th Battalion Coordinators would then be Cars 815 and 825. And the county Haz-Mat truck is Haz-Mat 8.

Ambulance corps' use the same county numbering system, and the ambulances are numbered using 4 digits (not for station number, rather the number of rigs). So my home town ambulances are 5619 and 5629, and the medic fly car is Medic 56. Ambulance officers also use the same system as fire officers, but the C is replaced with M (i.e. 5M-16).

I know it seems confusing on paper, but it works smoothly in the field.

[50-65 205]

A majority of your members dont have first aid or CPR? That is astonishing to me. I am not saying every firefighter should be an EMT but they should atleast have some basic training that every boy scout and most sports coaches are required to have. What if your at an auto alarm and one of your members has a massive heart attack and goes into cardiac arrest? Wait for the ambulance? This is scary when that is a very real scenario around the country in the Fire Service. Cardiac Related LODD deaths have been one of the top causes of death for Firefighters. A CPR class takes what 4 hours but it can save someones life including one of your brothers God forbid!!

I agree 100%. We had a chief that was anti-ems and wanted absolutely nothing to do with it, to the point that after our 3rd drill (in a year) that focused primarily on pt care and handling, we were told not to do amy more ems related drills.

I personally think it should be required.

But that is another topic.

Edited January 9, 2012 by 50-65

[xfirefighter484x 234]

In my opinion Orange County is trying something that no other county is doing. They will never be like Ulster or Dutchess which has the perfect plan to identify certain pieces of apparatus and even dispatches those appropriate for the call they are going out on. This new system is for the birds if you ask me.

Haha, "perfect" is debatable. I am biased with our numbering system, but I can see the merits to other counties. Like Putnam:

Putnam Reference Guide

11-2-3

1st number is department

2nd number is unit type

3rd number is unit designation

Therefore, 11-2-3 is Brewster Engine 3

[AndyC3J 190]

From what I've heard from various sources, at least part of the reason for the proposed renumbering is that a few battalions are said to be on the verge of running out of numbers. Ironically enough, two of them are the ones that have voted against the proposed plan. Perhaps restructuring the battalion lineage, or simply not assigning a number to every vehicle in the department (especially those not used frequently) might be an idea. Or, maybe just alter the amount of numbers available for each. Seems like there should be enough to go around, but that's just my two cents' worth.

As for the cost of renumbering the rigs....a few recent deliveries (Chester, Circleville, Harriman, Johnson) came in numbered for the earlier proposed system, which was scrapped. At least one vehicle (Lakeside engine) has, to the best of my knowledge, never been numbered yet, as it was waiting to see what the new system ended up being.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Few years back, they tried the idea of referring to departments by number instead of name. That didn't last long, either.

[Guest fester]

There are more than a few departments that are planning on ignoring the new plan, just like when they tried to use dept numbers. That is what I will do. If they don't answer me, too bad. I can dispatch surrounding companies from my car radio. Screw 'em.

[Rsudol 0]

Where im at the County is divided up into 4 quadrants. Quad 1, Quad 2, Quad 3 and Quad 4. Every department is given a Dept number 1-9 and then members and apparatus have groupings. So Apparatus and Personel have 4 or 5 Digit numbers. Groupsings are as follows, Officers 1-10, FD Personnel 11-50, Ambulances 51-59 Engines 60-69, Trucks 70-75, Utilities 75-79, Support Vehicles (ATV, Command, Wildland, Trailers) 80-89, Tenders 90-95, Water Support (Dive Vehicles, Boats) 95-99, EMS Personel 100-140. So Example an officer for Quad 4 Department 7 would be 4701. Pretty Simple. Always know what the vehicle type or what personel are comming. Based on the quads departments in each quad also have a quad tone in pagers so if a Mutual Aide call goes out in said Quad all pagers in every department in that quad go off regardless of if only 1 department is requested. then everyone knows whats going on too.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Whatever happened to using plain English? "Rescue 47 responding" Too many people complained that they didn't know where it was coming from, or it may not be the type of rescue we needed. Operating in Putnam County we use the numerical designations for deparetment-type-number. So for example 22-2-3 would be Patterson-Engine-3. I hate this type of system, too many numbers, and often they get shortened to using just 2-3,. that is fine until more than one department is operating, and there are more than one "2-3" on the scene. Proponents of this system argue that "I always know who is coming" I know the departments around Patterson, but ask me about the west side of the county, I have no clue. the other argument for this type of system is "I always know what is coming" So do I when you say Engine, Ladder, Tanker.

[16fire5 693]

There are more than a few departments that are planning on ignoring the new plan, just like when they tried to use dept numbers. That is what I will do. If they don't answer me, too bad. I can dispatch surrounding companies from my car radio. Screw 'em.

While I'm not touting the plan as great I'm not sure what you plan to acomplish with your boycott other than point out one of the true flaws with home rule. Is it a bad idea to have a common channel line up for the fireground? A common numbering system? Almost all working fires require mutual aid. By making things as similar as possible it makes it easier and safer for them. I say pick your battles and can't see what you accomplish other than confusion. Our job is dangerour enough.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Whatever happened to using plain English?

How about this for plain english..."Pleasntville Heavy Rescue 1 (R-47), Responding" or "Mt. Kisco Heavy Rescue 1 (R-14), Responding" or "Mt. Kisco Light Rescue 2 (R-31) Responding."

Tower 1, 2, 3 etc; Ladder 1, 2, 3 etc; Engine 1, 2, 3 etc

Sure you are on the air for a second or two longer, but at least this way everyone knows exactly who and what is coming, none of this "is that XYZ's tanker or ABC's tanker that called responding?" or "was that unit a ladder or a tower?".

Thoughts?