Stay or Go

[Remember585 815]

In this scenario, are we carrying/assisting the victim out along an exterior wall? Does this wall have windows that we can make our exit from?

Keeping low, and I do mean LOW, may offer you enough air to make your escape. Also, can we retreat into a room, close a door and await the calvary?

[FFPCogs 863]

In this scenario, are we carrying/assisting the victim out along an exterior wall? Does this wall have windows that we can make our exit from?

Keeping low, and I do mean LOW, may offer you enough air to make your escape. Also, can we retreat into a room, close a door and await the calvary?

You are retracing the path you took getting to the victim with the only exit being the door you came in (a fairly common structural anomaly here) and you won't have enough air to make it.

I find it very enlightening in that regardless of the specifics (of which there are none anyway) some say keep going and others say leave the victim. Each view is supported by what I think are valid reasons for following through with the decision made.

Thanks all for the contributions so far.

Cogs

Edited January 10, 2012 by FFPCogs

[ckroll 101]

You are retracing the path you took getting to the victim with the only exit being the door you came in (a fairly common structural anomaly here) and you won't have enough air to make it.

I find it very enlightening in that regardless of the specifics (of which there are none anyway) some say keep going and others say leave the victim. Each view is supported by what I think are valid reasons for following through with the decision made.

Thanks all for the contributions so far.

Cogs

This scenario states no radio, and not enough air to get to the door. The IC does not know there is an emergency until someone who knows two guys are in a building says something. That anyone will hear a PASS alarm outside, [save for the 4 that are going off because people are standing around] and figure out it means people are trapped is not taking into account the natural chaos of the fireground.

If no one knows you need rescuing, nobody's coming. What part of really close to the door and really dead am I missing?

[ckroll 101]

The patient is viable, yes? So I assume he's breathing. If he's not breathing, it's not a rescue. If the air is good enough to breathe by the floor, then the victim will breathe if you leave him in recovery position, [and doing this 'filter breathing' the younger members are so fond of]. If the air is toxic, you're all dead when your air runs out.

So where in this scenario do we change the outcome [in a good way] by not alerting the IC to the emergency and running out of air?

[FFPCogs 863]

This scenario states no radio, and not enough air to get to the door. The IC does not know there is an emergency until someone who knows two guys are in a building says something. That anyone will hear a PASS alarm outside, [save for the 4 that are going off because people are standing around] and figure out it means people are trapped is not taking into account the natural chaos of the fireground.

If no one knows you need rescuing, nobody's coming. What part of really close to the door and really dead am I missing?

As I stated for me it's a case of activating our PASS alarms while continuing towards the exit. It comes down to the "morality" I touched on earlier. Many may not agree with it but then again many might. Ultimately it becomes the choice of those actually in the predicament to make on the spot. And I don't think there is a simple right or wrong answer, there is only what we feel to be the right one for us at that time we make it.

The patient is viable, yes? So I assume he's breathing. If he's not breathing, it's not a rescue. If the air is good enough to breathe by the floor, then the victim will breathe if you leave him in recovery position, [and doing this 'filter breathing' the younger members are so fond of]. If the air is toxic, you're all dead when your air runs out.

So where in this scenario do we change the outcome [in a good way] by not alerting the IC to the emergency and running out of air?

Maybe we don't and the fact is leaving a victim to die is not a very good outcome either. All of our training and experience are supposed to help guide us in making life and death decisions, espcially when the unexpected or unplanned happens. The arguments raised for leaving a victim seem to me to be ones that will easily transfer into a policy of doing nothing. Ultimately there is always a risk every time we enter a burning building that something may go wrong or a miscalculation might be made....and the only way to prevent that is to not enter it in the first place.

Cogs

[ny10570 745]

How close are you to the exit? Is the difficulty of the removal causing you to exhaust your air before you escape or is it the sheer distance? If its a technical issue, absolutely go get help. If its distance, how close do think you can get. If you're looking at running out with a long way to go, continuing to labor is fruitless. If you're going to be cutting it close maybe it is worth making that last push. There's a lot of judgement in there. Also as ALS pointed out so many posts ago is splitting up an option?

[firemoose827 324]

Its a personal decision to be made by the crew at that time. I think neither is the wrong decision, but that is what training dictates to us; our safety first. If its me, Im not wasting time or air thinking about it, Im turning my PASS on, and dragging the victim until I run out of air and pass out or I reach the door. The closer I get to the door the better the chances someone hears my PASS and the easier it is to get us all out safely.

Splitting up is an option, but last minute last ditch effort type thing. If you are far away and have little to no air I would send my partner out for help and start dragging the victim as far as I could go.

Its a personal decision that will be different for everyone.

[AJU 39]

A few possibilities in my mind:

- Breach the exterior wall near victim (probably not enough air to do this)

- Hasty harness drag to minimize exertion and extract victim. With two firefighters dragging, exertion should be minimized and may be possible.

- Tie utility rope to victim and stretch to exit, tying two ropes in serial if need be. Exit and return with either fresh resources or new bottles. This option allows for speed in extracting the victim (quick exit and very quickly guiding the fresh resources both to the victim and then the exit again) where trying to remove the victim while conserving air would be excruciatingly slow. Probably the best option.