2011 Total Runs Discussion Thread

[Bnechis 3,961]

Moderation Note: This thread is for discussion of 2011 run totals, which was moved to here.

Continue posting run totals here . Thanks.

Ok lets play the numbers that have been posted so far:

53 VFDs responding to 26,659 calls. About 6 listed that included EMS. The average FD did 560 calls.(38 depts did less). If I drop 50% of the calls of the 6 depts that claimed EMS the average drops to 472 calls per year per dept.

Now the 8 career depts that posted (note: the 3 busiest in Westchester are not included). Did 88,852 calls or an average of 11,107 per dept.

What was interesting is that the slowest unit in Bridgeport (Batt 2) still did more calls than the average VFD.

Most of their units did 2-6x the call volume.

Now the total call volume # is really useless.....

What is usefull is the breakdown: Fires, MVAs, rescues, AFA, HM, good Intent, etc. (maybe next time we will be bold enough to ask for those numbers).

Now lets round the number to 500 and what is the breakdown (consider the following approx %):

250 for smells & bells (50%)

50 MVA's

75 HM (odor of gas, fuel spill, CO alarm etc.)

25 rescue

50 Good Intent

50 Other (including MA, Fires, service calls, etc.)

and buried in there are the EMS calls that were not broken out for those that do them.

How many actual working fires do you actually get?

Most of the career depts. (including FDNY) have stated that the fire calls are way down and its very hard for members to get enough experience.

So here is the real question: With these numbers how is it possable to get enough experience to perform well and more importantly to become a chief officer?

I expect some will just attack me as this is another career vs. volly dig...but there are small career/combo depts that did the same volume of calls and the question is for them as well. This is something that needs to be looked at by every FF and every dept. because its about quality that comes from quantity.

Note: the numbers that were posted as EMS agencies or EMS calls for FD's I did not include as it was too small a group.

[JJB531 652]

BNechis, it's interesting that you bring this up, because from a previous post in this thread, another member indicated that the following Fire Departments in Long Island didn't log a single working fire in 2011:

Bellerose-0

Floral Park Centre-0

Garden City Park-0

Stewart Manor-0

Meadowmere Park-0

Bayville-0

Sea Cliff-0

Merrick-0

South Hempstead-0

Albertson-0

Great Neck Vigilant-0

Plandome-0

Williston Park - 0

South Farmingdale - 0

I was wondering what this means for the experience these agencies firefighters are exposed to?

[gamewell45 258]

BNechis, it's interesting that you bring this up, because from a previous post in this thread, another member indicated that the following Fire Departments in Long Island didn't log a single working fire in 2011:

Bellerose-0

Floral Park Centre-0

Garden City Park-0

Stewart Manor-0

Meadowmere Park-0

Bayville-0

Sea Cliff-0

Merrick-0

South Hempstead-0

Albertson-0

Great Neck Vigilant-0

Plandome-0

Williston Park - 0

South Farmingdale - 0

I was wondering what this means for the experience these agencies firefighters are exposed to?

I'm sure all they can do is to train as much as possible. Eitherway, one thing that is obvious is that their fire prevention program is working.

[JJB531 652]

I'm sure all they can do is to train as much as possible. Eitherway, one thing that is obvious is that their fire prevention program is working.

Training is extremely important in any emergency service field, but the realities associated with live incidents can only be partially recreated in training. Do any of these agencies have actual on-going fire prevention programs, or does their fire prevention efforts consist of handing out informational pamphlets once a year at a FD sponsored carnival or open house?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Eitherway, one thing that is obvious is that their fire prevention program is working.

Can fire prevention programs actually prevent things like a lightning strike? Or the malfunction of electrical equipment (even if properly used/maintained)?....No

So maybe the real reason they have not had any fires is because they cover too small an area. That means that statisticly they will go for x number of years between fires.

We have many neighborhoods in my city that are the same size as each of those depts. And we have not had a worker in any of them in 2 or more years. But because we cover 10x the area we will have a number of workers each year and that helps maintain our skills.

[16fire5 693]

So here is the real question: With these numbers how is it possable to get enough experience to perform well and more importantly to become a chief officer?

I think training is the key but mindset becomes important. It is how you approach all the calls and things you do. You need to take the calls you do seriously. You need to practice laying lines and stretching, putting up ladders. You need to do what ifs at the calls you do go to and without a doubt you need to learn the lessons of others. I always though a good company was not only a good company at a fire but they showed their professionalism at a gas leak. When you see the senior firefighter discussing with the new members what the roof and OV would do before taking up from a minor incident you see the real good tradition of the fire service. I hope some of what I just said makes some sense.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Barry, as alaways you bring up some great points and pose some great questions. I totally agree with most, if not all of what youre saying.

However, in looking over the #'s, i made a different observation. Most career job's run THOUSAND's of calls annually, but actual fire duty is waaay down in many areas (not a bad thing).

We've been looking at mostly volly depts and comparing run #'s to actual workers and what-not.

But here is one of my observations;

Bridgeport, CT FD - 14,982 (55 of which were jobs)

New Haven, CT FD - 23,939 (74 of which were jobs)

BFD ran 14,982 alarms and NHFD ran 23,939 alarms. No question, thats a LOT of alarms. However, BFD had "only" 55 jobs, while NHFD had "only" 74 jobs.

Im not great at math or with numbers, but thats a pretty low percentage of actual fire duty for such high call volumes.

Take into account the fact that Career FF's work rotating shitfs, so how many of those job's does each FF actually make?

I am in NO way taking away from these FD's or the ammount of alarms they run or work they catch. Im also in NO way trying to start a Career bash pissing match.

Again, this was just an observation i had made.

Hands down, Career FF's training and experience far exceed any vol FF's.

Now, back to the #'s game. I see many vol FD's that have very low annual run #'s, some WELL below 100 (one FD w/14 runs!).

Barry, this brings me back to the many topics and conversations on here regarding consoidation. Why is this not being done in many places? How is a FF going to get any experience from 14 ANNUAL calls? Out of the 14, how many would the average vol FF actual make?

Oh, i will try and see if i can get a breakdown of my FD's actual runs.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Barry, as alaways you bring up some great points and pose some great questions. I totally agree with most, if not all of what youre saying.

However, in looking over the #'s, i made a different observation. Most career job's run THOUSAND's of calls annually, but actual fire duty is waaay down in many areas (not a bad thing).

We've been looking at mostly volly depts and comparing run #'s to actual workers and what-not.

But here is one of my observations;

Bridgeport, CT FD - 14,982 (55 of which were jobs)

New Haven, CT FD - 23,939 (74 of which were jobs)

BFD ran 14,982 alarms and NHFD ran 23,939 alarms. No question, thats a LOT of alarms. However, BFD had "only" 55 jobs, while NHFD had "only" 74 jobs.

Im not great at math or with numbers, but thats a pretty low percentage of actual fire duty for such high call volumes.

Take into account the fact that Career FF's work rotating shitfs, so how many of those job's does each FF actually make?

I am in NO way taking away from these FD's or the ammount of alarms they run or work they catch. Im also in NO way trying to start a Career bash pissing match.

Again, this was just an observation i had made.

Hands down, Career FF's training and experience far exceed any vol FF's.

Now, back to the #'s game. I see many vol FD's that have very low annual run #'s, some WELL below 100 (one FD w/14 runs!).

Barry, this brings me back to the many topics and conversations on here regarding consoidation. Why is this not being done in many places? How is a FF going to get any experience from 14 ANNUAL calls? Out of the 14, how many would the average vol FF actual make?

Oh, i will try and see if i can get a breakdown of my FD's actual runs.

Great points BFD. I had the same reaction as you did with the low percentage of runs being workers and how many each FF actually operated at.

I understand the concept of consolidation and despite being a vollie, I still see consolidation being inevitable in the future for both FD's and EMS. However, I do have one area that I need clarification of if someone can fill me in. Lets focus on the department that did 14 runs. If you consolidate this department and the ones around it, you will simply be operating under one name with different houses...correct? Or are we assuming consolidation will mean all companies are in one central house? Going with the idea that these will be different houses under the same department name, then how will consolidation increase the experience for the house that only has 14 calls in its area? Will this station respond to a large amount of other calls away from its first due area?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Most of the career depts. (including FDNY) have stated that the fire calls are way down and its very hard for members to get enough experience.

Most career job's run THOUSAND's of calls annually, but actual fire duty is waaay down in many areas (not a bad thing).

BFD ran 14,982 alarms and NHFD ran 23,939 alarms. No question, thats a LOT of alarms. However, BFD had "only" 55 jobs, while NHFD had "only" 74 jobs......thats a pretty low percentage of actual fire duty for such high call volumes.

Take into account the fact that Career FF's work rotating shitfs, so how many of those job's does each FF actually make?

Very fair question. Like I said its a problem that our workers are way down but not our numbers. I can speak on those depts, because I know very little about how they operate, so I'll use mine. We are averaging about 8,000 runs per year and 50 workers. Because of manning cuts, on a worker we send atleast 4 engines & 2 trucks, that leaves 1&1. If its a 2nd alarm or greater, then every rig is there (plus call back). Our work chart is 4 groups so each group averages 13 workers, even with vacation time, our average member responds to 10 workers per year (not including mutual aid responses to other depts). If we beleive that 10 is not enough then, the depts running 2 or 1 or none and not everyone makes them are in real trouble.

We do get more training as a group and all of those other runs (1,000's being AFA) we go in as a fire company, we get into the buildings in full gear, with standpipe packs & tools to check, we rarely hear the chief onscene sending everyone home (they often slow everyone down or turn back 2nd due, but 1st in units are expected to handle it as a fire till proven otherwise). This means we are drilling our teamwork and our sop assignments multiple times each day.

I am in NO way taking away from these FD's or the ammount of alarms they run or work they catch. Im also in NO way trying to start a Career bash pissing match.

No problem, I dont think any career guys see it as bashing.

Barry, this brings me back to the many topics and conversations on here regarding consoidation. Why is this not being done in many places? How is a FF going to get any experience from 14 ANNUAL calls? Out of the 14, how many would the average vol FF actual make?

Because we are afraid of change. The only constant is change and my adgenda has been twofold, first to make sure that communities get the best service they can (and responders therefore get what they need to do the job and go home) and second; that the providers of the service control the direction of the service. My fear is that the longer we delay consolidation the more likely that we will just be a political football and we will have no say in what we are left with.

[Dinosaur 844]

I'm sure all they can do is to train as much as possible. Eitherway, one thing that is obvious is that their fire prevention program is working.

But how much is as much as possible? I've been pondering that so let's consider the "weekly" drill night. Figure it's 3 hours so 2 hours is actually spent doing something meaningful, the rest is set-up, breakdown, admin, etc..

That's 8 hours a month to train. Factor in the required stuff - OSHA, Haz-Mat, physicals, fit-testing, etc. at just 8 hours (and I think we'd all agree that's not enough) and you're left with 88 hours. Since nobody shows up 100% of the time I figure about 75% or a whopping 66 hours of training per year for the average volunteer FF. Since most chief's or training officer's have their own "pet" topics, you can bet that some topics get more attention than others too. With initial attack, water supply, ground ladder ops, aerial ops, rescue, survival, extrication, rescue, bail-out, pump ops, all competing for this critical time how can you possibly remain proficient at anything? Before everyone gets their knickers in a twist this isn't directed at anyone and is an a-v-e-r-a-g-e. Of course I know you did twice this amount of time already this year.

Looking at the average career FF. They may not get nearly enough real OJT but they're going to be able to get much more training. If the department has a really good MTO, they may get that much training in a month. More likely however, if they work 2080 hours a year (an average based on 40 hours a week) they could get 40 hours of training and/or or on the job experience in a single month. So the average career guy can get 500 hours of training in a year.

This isn't a paid/volunteer issue. It's a matter of simple math. 10 minutes, one pencil and one sheet of paper to figure out this math. Career guys will get more training and OJT experience than a volunteer because they're there for 40 hours a week.

Great topic.

[Dinosaur 844]

I think training is the key but mindset becomes important. It is how you approach all the calls and things you do. You need to take the calls you do seriously. You need to practice laying lines and stretching, putting up ladders. You need to do what ifs at the calls you do go to and without a doubt you need to learn the lessons of others. I always though a good company was not only a good company at a fire but they showed their professionalism at a gas leak. When you see the senior firefighter discussing with the new members what the roof and OV would do before taking up from a minor incident you see the real good tradition of the fire service. I hope some of what I just said makes some sense.

This was discussed in another thread and there was a general sentiment that volunteers should go back to their families instead of doing this at an activated alarm call or other non-fire response.

I can only hope a lot of new officers and senior guys read this and remember the dinosaurs that broke them in! Thanks, Frank!

[Dinosaur 844]

Can fire prevention programs actually prevent things like a lightning strike? Or the malfunction of electrical equipment (even if properly used/maintained)?....No

So maybe the real reason they have not had any fires is because they cover too small an area. That means that statisticly they will go for x number of years between fires.

We have many neighborhoods in my city that are the same size as each of those depts. And we have not had a worker in any of them in 2 or more years. But because we cover 10x the area we will have a number of workers each year and that helps maintain our skills.

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.

I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:

So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

[99subi 121]

^^^^^I wish i could rep that more than once

[BFD1054 1,552]

Very fair question. Like I said its a problem that our workers are way down but not our numbers. I can speak on those depts, because I know very little about how they operate, so I'll use mine. We are averaging about 8,000 runs per year and 50 workers. Because of manning cuts, on a worker we send atleast 4 engines & 2 trucks, that leaves 1&1. If its a 2nd alarm or greater, then every rig is there (plus call back). Our work chart is 4 groups so each group averages 13 workers, even with vacation time, our average member responds to 10 workers per year (not including mutual aid responses to other depts). If we beleive that 10 is not enough then, the depts running 2 or 1 or none and not everyone makes them are in real trouble.

We do get more training as a group and all of those other runs (1,000's being AFA) we go in as a fire company, we get into the buildings in full gear, with standpipe packs & tools to check, we rarely hear the chief onscene sending everyone home (they often slow everyone down or turn back 2nd due, but 1st in units are expected to handle it as a fire till proven otherwise). This means we are drilling our teamwork and our sop assignments multiple times each day.

Barry, thanks for the quick and detailed response. Glad to see you give insight into NRFD's #'s and responses.

Each FF responding to 10 (+M/A) workers a year seems to be a good number. Works out to be almost 1 a month, give or take. IMO, enough action to keep each FF on the "up and up," allows them to keep their skills sharp and helps lower complacincy(sp?).

You bring up a great point of going in as a company on all runs. When i was a company officer, i tried to instill this in my guys. Every run should be treated as the "real deal" and all members should always be professional and ready to go to work. I actually didnt mind AFA's, as they got us to get into full PPE, asign positions and carry tools. Each alarm, as minor as it may be, should be looked at as a training opportunity.

In my current Dept, riding assignments are given on EVERY call. When we get off the rig, each FF has their own job/tool assignment and things run smoothly.

We are fortunate to have several Career guys who volly with us, some of whom are retired. They are huge assets on a day-to-day basis. They take th etime to explain things and pass as much on to us as they can. Even the run of the mill alarms become mini-drills, which keeps us sharp.

No problem, I dont think any career guys see it as bashing.

Thanks, wanted to be clear about my intentions.

Because we are afraid of change. The only constant is change and my adgenda has been twofold, first to make sure that communities get the best service they can (and responders therefore get what they need to do the job and go home) and second; that the providers of the service control the direction of the service. My fear is that the longer we delay consolidation the more likely that we will just be a political football and we will have no say in what we are left with.

Ahh yes, that old evil word...change. As silly as it sounds, it seems as though the fire service truly is afraid of change.

Your "political football" prediction is spot-on. I may be in the minority here, but i think change, in the way of consolidation, is not all that far down the pipe. But as you say, if we dont help ourselves and start the process to where it works for us, we may not have a choice/say in it.

*Sorry my post looks like this with the quotes, not sure how to fix it lol.

Edited January 7, 2012 by BFD1054

[ny10570 745]

I lover hearing how some threads are "anti-volunteer" and then come here to see as many or more volunteers agreeing with the career guys. 16fire5 had a great post. The great companies operate like a great company on EVERY run. At work I run in with engine companies on the majority of my jobs. For some Co's every call is a teaching moment. "Go up stairs, every floor in this building is different", "See that, as soon as the heat hits this the hallway this s*** falls and always falls on you. Take it down before you go in.", "Where's the fire escape? Why weren't you looking?", etc. For some companies it never stops. I saw the same guy doing rope stretches on three different jobs in one tour because he couldn't guess a distance right.

If every call is not a chance to practice something old or lean something new, then what are you doing? The opportunities are out there.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I understand the concept of consolidation and despite being a vollie, I still see consolidation being inevitable in the future for both FD's and EMS.

Agreed and infact I think the VFD's will actually see more benefits in terms of manpower than the career depts.

Lets focus on the department that did 14 runs. If you consolidate this department and the ones around it, you will simply be operating under one name with different houses...correct? Or are we assuming consolidation will mean all companies are in one central house? Going with the idea that these will be different houses under the same department name, then how will consolidation increase the experience for the house that only has 14 calls in its area? Will this station respond to a large amount of other calls away from its first due area?

Great questions.

1st Every community involved in a potential consolidation needs to be anylized. What FD resources already exist, Stations, apparatus, personnel. The road network and the call volume and type and the water system. If this is done well, honestly with no bias, then good planing can determine what the needs are and what direction to take the consolidation. Once there is a general agreement to consolidate, response patterns need to be set up and SOP's and training on how things need to work.

2nd to answer how it would work is not possible till #1 is completed. But I will give some possabilities;

in the case of the 14 call dept. I believe they are in a very unusual position. If I have the right FD, they are a very small village located within a very large park. They do not have any boardering FD's So they might not have the ability to consolidate and actually change anything.

Now as a hypothetical answer, if

Dept. "A" has 1 station with 2 engines and a ladder,

dept. "B" has 2 stations with 3 engines, 1 rescue and a ladder and

dept. "c" has 1 station with 3 engines and a rescue. They are all 1-2 square miles.

Consolidated dept XYZ might only need 3 engines (+ 1 spare), 1 Rescue and 1 ladder (+ 1 spare). And they only need 3 stations, but to keep everyone happy they might keep all 4. The new dept might look like this:

XYZ FD Co. "A" staffs 1 engine (they store the ladder as the dept spare)

XYZ FD Co. "B" staffs 1 engine, 1 rescue at one station

XYZ FD Co. "B2" staffs 1 ladder at the other station.

XYZ FD CO. "C" staffs 1 engine (they store an engine as the dept spare)

The responds 1 engine from the closest house for minor alarms. For MVA's add the rescue. For AFA, the closest 2 engines, 1 ladder & rescue. for reported fires; 3 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue from all houses.

Keep the spares fully supplied so they can be swapped or used in a major emergency. But we can now reduce the fleet by 4 engines & a rescue. Or maybe we convert the rescue to a collapse unit and convert 1 engine to a foam or special water supply unit.

Personnel wise, Co. "A" use to average 6 ff's staffing 3 rigs, now they are running a 6 man engine they had 100 calls in the old district, but now they also get more calls in the other 2. same concept holds true for the other companies. Also now that you have 3x the pool, you might be able to set up special ops. Foam, Tech rescue, hazmat, dive, etc.