South Salem - Working Fire 1/3/2011 **DISCUSSION**

[Fireman488 57]

In my opinion, every fire dept especially where there are water supply problems, the FD should have class A foam. You use less water and you have a quicker knock down time of the fire.

I'm not talking CAFS, just add Class A foam to your hose lines and you would see a big difference in your firefighting abilities.

Absolutely correct!!!

We have been using 0.5% Class A foam (not CAFS) for about 5 years on virtually all types of fires: structure, vehicle, dumpster, brush, etc. and the difference is like night and day: Much faster knockdowns, much less water required and no rekindles (incomplete extinguishment).

[MoFire390 118]

A mile of supply line? That's quite a distance. Hate to be the poor probies tasked with picking it up, especially if it was icy. How many pumpers were used in that line, or how was it structured with pools, tankers, etc?

Thank you for any additional info you could provide. Or anybody else wants to pipe in here, please feel free, especially if you were there, and your fingers have thawed enough to be able to type.

I agree with the recent poster who talked about using Class A foam to "stretch" that water supply. Very good post.

None of this is meant as MMQBing ( but get ready for somebody to post "we've posted about this before!" lol

Capt to answer your question to some extent. I believe South Salem falls into the "Tanker Taskforce" catagory. So they get a tanker from Vista, a Tanker from Banksville, A tanker from Croton Falls, A tanker from New Cannan CT, a tanker from Millpond CT, and their tanker. If I'm not mistaken they use one of their own engine as the pond relay engine. (I dont know what the location looks like if it was up hill I would think they would need another engine in there somewhere to help get the water up hill.) I'm not sure who they used as the source pumper for refilling the tankers I believe there is a fill site at South Salem's firehouse. Hope this gives you a good idea capt.

Side note: Sounds like the boys and gals from South Salem had a tough fight. Hope all was safe.

[firedude 985]

I believe South Salem falls into the "Tanker Taskforce" catagory. So they get a tanker from Vista, a Tanker from Banksville, A tanker from Croton Falls, A tanker from New Cannan CT, a tanker from Millpond CT, and their tanker. If I'm not mistaken they use one of their own engine as the pond relay engine.

Just to clarify, their Mutual aid assignment for tankers tankers was 1st Goldens Bridge, Croton Falls, Pound Ridge, Vista and Ridgefield, CT. Their next tanker would likely have been from Somers, Katonah, Bedford Hills, New Canaan, Yorktown, Banksville and/or Armonk. E142 from vista was their pond relay engine with 2403 from Pound Ridge as the Water Officer.

[Dinosaur 844]

If anyone from South Salem or the mutual aid companies can enlighten us, did the pre-plan for this house or neighborhood work? There must be a pretty detailed plan for moving enough water to an area like that for those big houses. How many gallons of water was on the initial response? Would you say that it's adequate for a structure of that size or do we need to reevaluate plans in non-hyrdanted areas?

I'm not second-guessing or MMQB'ing but we can learn alot about water supply issues in our areas from it.

Glad everyone's OK and nobody was hurt.

[firedude 985]

How many gallons of water was on the initial response?

I was not onscene however I can answer this question.

E167(1000)+ E168(750)+T2(3500)= 5250gal was on the road before the 10-75 was confirmed. The 1st alarm assignment was requested and dispatched before and FD apparatus arrived. The 1st alarm brought Goldens Bridge E140(1000)+T1(3300) & Croton Falls T8(3000)=7300gal. Altogether thats 12500gal dispatched before anyone arrived on scene. Additional tankers were still needed.

Edited January 4, 2012 by firedude

[MoFire390 118]

Just to clarify, their Mutual aid assignment for tankers tankers was 1st Goldens Bridge, Croton Falls, Pound Ridge, Vista and Ridgefield, CT. Their next tanker would likely have been from Somers, Katonah, Bedford Hills, New Canaan, Yorktown, Banksville and/or Armonk. E142 from vista was their pond relay engine with 2403 from Pound Ridge as the Water Officer.

thank you kyle...I didnot read the I/A was just going on what the Tanker Taskforce is. and was hoping to get some of it correct

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thanks for all the answers guys. Ran out of reps for today.

[BigBuff 27]

A mile of supply line? That's quite a distance. Hate to be the poor probies tasked with picking it up, especially if it was icy. How many pumpers were used in that line, or how was it structured with pools, tankers, etc?

Thank you for any additional info you could provide. Or anybody else wants to pipe in here, please feel free, especially if you were there, and your fingers have thawed enough to be able to type.

I agree with the recent poster who talked about using Class A foam to "stretch" that water supply. Very good post.

None of this is meant as MMQBing ( but get ready for somebody to post "we've posted about this before!" lol

They had 1 dry hydrant in the area, thats it. Tankers and a mile and a half of line with low pressure was used. From the sound of units on scene, it was a difficult battle, with ice from the leaked water, from the heat of the fire, etc. They stopped all operations at one point because one of the many links on those lines broke, which spilt a lot of their water onto the ground, which then made a sheet of ice.Was fixed and units were put back to work.

I am not sure who posted about BHFD TL-57 broken down, it broke down about 10 minutes after they were released from the scene. ( The ladder was in full operation for hours) so it went through a lot of work. It was towed away today, they state it broke down from engine problems.

Will update if I find out any further info about both topics.

Edited January 4, 2012 by BigBuff

[rayrider 94]

If anyone from South Salem or the mutual aid companies can enlighten us, did the pre-plan for this house or neighborhood work? There must be a pretty detailed plan for moving enough water to an area like that for those big houses. How many gallons of water was on the initial response? Would you say that it's adequate for a structure of that size or do we need to reevaluate plans in non-hyrdanted areas?

I'm not second-guessing or MMQB'ing but we can learn alot about water supply issues in our areas from it.

Glad everyone's OK and nobody was hurt.

From the looks of the photo's showing not much more than a chimney remaining, I would have to say any pre-plans if any in place did not work. Unless there were exposure issues of course. At least no one was injured.

[BFD1054 1,552]

how many alarms was this fire?

Only 1 Alarm

Personally, i think the "Alarm assignments" are a bit skewed in Westchester. Technically, this may have only been 1 Alarm per se.

The problem is, IMO, is that EVERY dept has their own different alarm assignments in place (good and bad).

If set-up properly, all the IC would have to do is transmit a 2nd (3rd, 4th, etc) alarm and know what theyre getting (i.e. - 2 and 1 or 3 and 2 & 2nd FAST team) or whatever. In this case, a Tanker Task Force and an additional alarm for manpower and source pumper(s) may have been good.

I think if a greater alarm is requested, then the appropriate apparatus/unit(s) should be dispatched accordingly (closest available).

Again, just an observation of mine in regard to the alarm assignments.

But thats discussion for another time/thread. Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

Looks and sounded like a tough job for all involved in this job. Glad to hear there were no injuries.

Edited January 4, 2012 by BFD1054

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Personally, i think the "Alarm assignments" are a bit skewed in Westchester. Technically, this may have only been 1 Alarm per se.

The problem is, IMO, is that EVERY dept has their own different alarm assignments in place (good and bad).

If set-up properly, all the IC would have to do is transmit a 2nd (3rd, 4th, etc) alarm and know what theyre getting (i.e. - 2 and 1 or 3 and 2 & 2nd FAST team) or whatever. In this case, a Tanker Task Force and an additional alarm for manpower and source pumper(s) may have been good.

I think if a greater alarm is requested, then the appropriate apparatus/unit(s) should be dispatched accordingly (closest available).

Again, just an observation of mine in regard to the alarm assignments.

Looks and sounded like a tough job for all involved in this job. Glad to hear there were no injuries.

Makes WAY too much sense Mike. Happy New Year!

[WAS967 97]

Can someone post a link to where exactly the house was? Google maps places it right at the end of Twin Ponds between two lakes so I'm wondering why they needed 1 mile of 5" for water supply. (I'm gonna guess google maps' location is wrong?)

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here's one, was there any thought about calling county FieldCom? This event is going on 8 hours in subfreezing temperatures, with a lot of manpower, departments, and chiefs/coordinators on scene. Especially with different frequencies and different departments from other counties(states) being used. Wouldnt it be nice to have a big whiteboard and plenty of room to "set up shop", not to mention its warm....

Isn't that what this truck is for?

Isn't this the reason we have county coordinators? They should be the ones assisting the IC. "Hey Chief we have multiple units operating on different frequencies". The IC is way to busy working and it is the job of the coordinators to handle these things.....

So everyone was on 1 fireground for attack and another for water supply.

2 frequencies and you need the field com to coordinate?

Yes its warm, but so is any rehab unit, bus, ambulance, etc.

[Bnechis 3,961]

there have been several rekindle fires. South Salem was just dispatched again. 2451 enroute.

No such thing as a rekindle its called not fully extinguished

Agreed, they had 1 (or was it 2) "REKINDELS"....WTF. There is no such thing as a rekindle. You have one of 3 choices:

1) you left the scene without putting it out (i.e. failure to overhaul) after declaring it out.

2) the arsonest came back and started another fire

3) you left the scene without putting it out, but left a fire watch (to maintain possesion of the scene) and you determined that it was still burning but posed no threat to exposures, and you would be unable to extingush it till later (like after heavy equipment was brought in to open it up and due to cold your crews were rehabed).

The fire didn't just "re-start on its own"

We need to stop using that term, it just makes the fire service look foolish.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Agreed, they had 1 (or was it 2) "REKINDELS"....WTF. There is no such thing as a rekindle. You have one of 3 choices:

1) you left the scene without putting it out (i.e. failure to overhaul) after declaring it out.

2) the arsonest came back and started another fire

3) you left the scene without putting it out, but left a fire watch (to maintain possesion of the scene) and you determined that it was still burning but posed no threat to exposures, and you would be unable to extingush it till later (like after heavy equipment was brought in to open it up and due to cold your crews were rehabed).

The fire didn't just "re-start on its own"

We need to stop using that term, it just makes the fire service look foolish.

Agreed. It really should be part of the past. However, to balance that out a bit, I have to say in my career I witnessed scenes where manpower in southern Westchester was so sparse and to add ignorance to top it off, the first company to arrive and work hardest and longest, was left on it's own, after additional companies came in, and were allowed to go back into service, while that beat first in company was last to leave. Poor leadership at times.

I remember having been in that situation personally, and was so tired to get into the rack as a firefighter I'd pass out before I hit the pillow. Worry about rekindles? lol

Then after I got made; eyes wide open, laying in the bunk, long after everybody else, exhausted, asleep and snoring, going over every detail as best I could. Now fires could never be out enough.

On another note, "Rekindle" wasn't it kind of a routine sounding of an alarm during war years in urban areas? I guess that would be number 2 on your multi-choice Cap.

[huzzie59 75]

Can someone post a link to where exactly the house was? Google maps places it right at the end of Twin Ponds between two lakes so I'm wondering why they needed 1 mile of 5" for water supply. (I'm gonna guess google maps' location is wrong?)

I was curious about the lakes as well. Bing Maps shows hte house at the end of the road.

http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/#5003/0.6002=q:81+TWIN+LAKES+ROAD:nelat:41.3000375828761:nelong:-73.5640623132299:swlat:41.2969606888244:swlong:-73.5671392072816:nosp:0:adj:0/5872/style=be&lat=qwgqt4&lon=8w39gv&alt=118.595718&z=18&pid=5874

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Can someone post a link to where exactly the house was? Google maps places it right at the end of Twin Ponds between two lakes so I'm wondering why they needed 1 mile of 5" for water supply. (I'm gonna guess google maps' location is wrong?)

I was curious about the lakes as well. Bing Maps shows hte house at the end of the road.

http://www.bing.com/...8&z=18&pid=5874

I looked at the location on my phone right after the initial page went out and had the same general reaction. Prior to hearing that water was an issue, I assumed that water would not be an issue since there are tow large bodies of water nearby. The only thing I can assume is that the land between the road and the bodies of water are not firefighter friendly or that the shoreline of the bodies of water are not suitable for drafting (ie cliff, etc).

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Had an instructor in the academy who always said...there's no such thing as a "rekindle"....only bad overhaul. Always stuck with me.

Just a question in one of the photos there is heavy fire showing from the roof on the right side...can't see much on the left side of the house but I noticed that all 3 or 4 of the skylights on that side were taken out...just wondering from a tactical viewpoint what was the decision making thinking of taking them out at that point?

Also what does "low pressure" mean when it was noted that a mile and a half (?) of hose was put down?

[PEMO3 523]

Listening to the later end of the job it seemed frozen 5 inch lines was a big concern and problem. Listening to operation setting up to de-escalate the IC was heard telling units once pumping was shut down to uncouple as much 5 inch as they could quickly working away from the trucks. One question, does any department in Westchester have a Thawing Unit or is a special call for FDNY the only option for this type of equipment and is it ever considered as an option especially north of the "287 corridor"? I know FDNY has sent units to Long Island and even Hackensack, NJ.

{The Thawing Unit is a mobile utility van with a portable steam-generating boiler; it's super-heated steam melts the ice off the hoses, ladders and tower ladders.}

[meat441 43]

Over a mile of 5" inch supply line? How long did this take to establish? How much apparatus was required? How much manpower for this laying line operation?

Only my input but! By the looks of South Salem it appears to be a Rural Department. No dependable hydrant system but a good amount of lakes in close proximity to fire. BUT THEY SAID NO GOOD WATER SUPPLY?

Photo's of the fire show a lake with dock behind structure. Another lake across the street with driveway access.

I'm sorry but it just sounds like poor planning to me? The water supply was there. Photo shows portable pumps on a dock, drafting from a lake BEHIND THE HOUSE, supplying water. Again this appaears to me to be a RURAL DEPARTMENT with water supply issue's. This was a great way to move water. The source was right there. Pre-planning is a must especially in rural area's.

What about purchasing some (TURBO-DRAFTS)?

Portable pump drafting thru a Turbo Draft, pumping thru a couple of length's of 5" hose to supply either apparatus or portable dump pools. I noticed in the department's web site they own what appears to be a Brush Truck with mounted pump. This is a great resource for driving down the opposite drive way to the other lake and supplying thru another Turbo Draft to an engine on the street. 150 foot driveway.

I have used these Turbo Drafts and you'll be amazed at the amount of water you could supply, especially thru portable pumps. Nice looking apparatus is fine, but if you can't supply water quickly and pre-plan then why are we here? Sorry for my rant.

[IzzyEng4 427]

A question about the long lay, was their any inline-rely-pumping involved? With a lay that long, your gonna need three to four pumpers inline (source, inline pumps and scene) to keep the pressure up. Even with the marvel of 5 inch hose, you are still dealing with friction loss and gravity at that long of a lay. Also the capacity of your source pumper needs to be equal to or greater than those inline also.

I would like to hear more.

Edited January 5, 2012 by IzzyEng4

[okcomputer 12]

I'm always amazed by the skeptics/back seat ff in these posts.

Then again the critics always enjoy coming out especially with the "way" they would do things.

[firedude 985]

A question about the long lay, was their any inline-rely-pumping involved? With a lay that long, your gonna need three to four pumpers inline (source, inline pumps and scene) to keep the pressure up. Even with the marvel of 5 inch hose, you are still dealing with friction loss and gravity at that long of a lay. Also the capacity of your source pumper needs to be equal to or greater than those inline also.

I would like to hear more.

I think E142 was the source which feed to E113. E113 feed to E112 which sent it to TL57.

[rayrider 94]

I'm always amazed by the skeptics/back seat ff in these posts.

Then again the critics always enjoy coming out especially with the "way" they would do things.

How about taking it as constructive criticism. Unless you think its the norm for a house to burn down to the ground.

[newsbuff 286]

How about taking it as constructive criticism. Unless you think its the norm for a house to burn down to the ground.

Not to mention for 5+ hours. It's not like we're talking about a warehouse.

[PEMO3 523]

I'm always amazed by the skeptics/back seat ff in these posts.

Then again the critics always enjoy coming out especially with the "way" they would do things.

There is such a thing called "lessons learned" that comes from a post review of an incident. One of the benefits of hindsight being 20/20 is that we can look back and learn from both our mistakes and our successes. Regardless if you are a rookie or a seasoned veteran you should be willing to learn from every opportunity that avails itself. The day you take the attitude that you know all that you need to know and no one can teach you anything is the day you need to hang up your equipment and step way for your safety and the safety of those you work with. While some look at it as Monday morning quarterbacking, a true professional will look at the opportunity to evaluate could things have been done differently even if not necessarily better. Be it a trash can fire, house fire, MVA, cardiac arrest, or building collapse we should all be willing to explore what when right and what went wrong in the interest of lesson learned.

Edited January 6, 2012 by PEMO3

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm always amazed by the skeptics/back seat ff in these posts.

Then again the critics always enjoy coming out especially with the "way" they would do things.

Hey probie, you seem to have it all figured out. Do you have any idea how a fire should go?

Just remember All the critics include the entire insurance industry. They told this home owner that because the FD score 10% on an open book test they get to pay an extra 40-50% for insurance every year since 1981 (actually on the previous home back to the 1920's) compared to depts that are within 25 miles of them.

You should be amazed, I am stunned at how backwards we really are. There is more water than you could ever need 50' off the road, less than 400' from the front door. But more than a half dozen departments have no idea how to use it.

When I was a probie, every instructor I had said, "if you want to be a good fire fighter, then shut your mouth and open yours ears....maybe, just maybe you will learn something"

We did not have the internet then...so now its fingers & eyes instead of mouth and ears.

[peterose313 345]

I think E142 was the source which feed to E113. E113 feed to E112 which sent it to TL57.

Didn't Engine 112 feed Tanker 2 and 140 fed 113 which fed 112?

[Mini-Attack9 39]

Didn't Engine 112 feed Tanker 2 and 140 fed 113 which fed 112?

Engine 113 was the source pumper at the dry hydrant on Oscaleta road. E113 fed E112 and E140 that were the relay pumpers in line up to the fire scene. During the operation of the Tower Ladder 57, Tanker 2 was used to supply the master stream. I hope this clears everything thing up for the brothers that were not on the scene and are monday morning quaterbacking rural water operations...... Us up here in the North county do not always have the luxury of having those red things every 500 feet. Sometimes we need to get down and dirty and actually lay out an entire bed of hose.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Mini-Attack9

[Tanker 10eng 140]

What I would like to know and maybe a senior member from South Salem might know.. Back when the house burned down in 1981, did you have issues with water then ? and over the years, was anything done to improve the water issues here ?

and I am NOT pointing a finger, just to the Town or FD, but more so the home owner... When they rebuilt the house, did they do anything to allow for an engine to get to the pond/lake ? To many time people think, well that will never happen again... maybe its me, but if I were rebuilding there, I would add means to assist the fire dept. To many times owners and builders do not think of these issues...