Accountability - How does your FD Handle it?

[flyboy14295 4]

Is the safety officer really fulfilling the function of safety officer if they do accountability? They are probably just doing accountability then and not safety. I know that is what most volunteer fire departments use their safety officer for but if he really is a comptetent experienced guy you could use him more wisely.

That's why I mentioned that he was the safety officer solely based on the fact that his vest said it.

[ny10570 745]

I think the acountability requirement started 20-25 years ago when a volunteer department had a fire where a member came along and worked the job without telling anyone he was there (or he did tell someone but it was forgotten). All returned to quarters, and the next morning the member was found dead in the basement. No one knew that he was at the fire. I cannot recall any other instance of not knowing who was there except 9/11/2001. The accounting problem there was that it happened at change of shifts and off-duty members jumped on the rigs because it was definitely the "Big One." Then two 110 story buildings collapsed onto the accountability system. The Cause was that Arab Radicals flew two planes into those buildings, and not flaws in FDNY's accountability system.

FDNY and every other paid dept have problems with their accountability systems beyond the 9/11 scale disasters. The biggest issue being truckies. They're frequently operating separate from the company officer and the reason why roll calls essentially require firefighting operations to cease. Yes these issues are exacerbated in the volunteer world, but what happens if the first due OVM becomes incapacitated? Who's is going to notice and how long will it take them to notice?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

As a follow-up to my above post, and to reinforce what Capt. Nechis said,

My department just recently had a fire, and I had this thread floating somewhere in the back of my head. I saw our safety officer on scene( traffic vest with "Safety Officer" on the back) standing inside the house, and I handed my tag to him. His answer was, "Oh, well I haven't started collecting these yet". Long story short, I told him to keep it for when he does get around to being the safety officer.

At the end of the fire, I never got my tag back. I doubt I will ever see it again.

Real useful system....

Discipline and following through with the proper assignments makes a world of difference. It is not the best system by any means but, it can be used effectively.

[Dinosaur 844]

I agree it needs to be on a county level. but you can't just put together an accountability system, until you standardize a few things: ICS, response patterns, training, equipment, sop's, manning...etc.

Look at the other thread which shows every dept has a different standard for what it sends to a structure call. How do you standardize accountability when there are 59 different minimum standards for staffing (from a minimum of 3ff's to a minimum of 26 for the same type of call).

I have been an advocate of this for many years. I call it consolidation.

Despite all the signs, billboards to some, there are those who don't see that this is the solution. It would be so easy to roll some of these duplicative FD's into larger regional ones and see some real progress. Too bad almost everyone fights it. The funny thing is listening to the arguments from the kids (teens and 20-somethings) who think their little FD is the cat's arse. Comical.

As a follow-up to my above post, and to reinforce what Capt. Nechis said,

My department just recently had a fire, and I had this thread floating somewhere in the back of my head. I saw our safety officer on scene( traffic vest with "Safety Officer" on the back) standing inside the house, and I handed my tag to him. His answer was, "Oh, well I haven't started collecting these yet". Long story short, I told him to keep it for when he does get around to being the safety officer.

At the end of the fire, I never got my tag back. I doubt I will ever see it again.

Real useful system....

Is the safety officer really fulfilling the function of safety officer if they do accountability? They are probably just doing accountability then and not safety. I know that is what most volunteer fire departments use their safety officer for but if he really is a comptetent experienced guy you could use him more wisely.

I used to argue (usually unsuccessfully) that the Safety Officer wasn't the accountability person but needed to know that everyone was accounted for. The Safety Officer has many more responsibilities than collecting tags. There should be someone assigned to just that reporting back to the ICP - where the IC and Safety Officer should both be - that everyone is or isn't accounted for.

[Dinosaur 844]

Barry - Could not have said it any better. Sounds like the continued EMTBravo.net Broken Record being played over and over and over. All the wonderful technology that Emergency Service Manufacturers are putting out on the market will assist but until State, County and Local Politicians, along with Union Leaders and Department Chiefs all get on the same page and get this Countywide Consolidation Plan moving (no more Paid. Combo or Volley Departments, just 1 "Consolidated" PAID County Run Department [No Exceptions made even for the Big Cities in the County - Every single City, Town and Village - All Together), taxes will continue to go up and lives and property will continue to be placed in grave danger. No Hype, just the plain truth.

I'm not sure Westchester would be best served by a single FD but I bet it would be served better by a number that could be counted on one hand instead of three peoples pinkies and toes!

[16fire5 693]

I used to argue (usually unsuccessfully) that the Safety Officer wasn't the accountability person but needed to know that everyone was accounted for. The Safety Officer has many more responsibilities than collecting tags. There should be someone assigned to just that reporting back to the ICP - where the IC and Safety Officer should both be - that everyone is or isn't accounted for.

That was my whole point. You could actually teach anyone to be the accountability officer and as a matter of fact we use Lieutenants and Fire Alarm Dispatchers from the Field Comm to do it and we only let Battalion Chiefs serve as the Safety Officer(ABCs can not). The safety officer on the other hand is someone you really want to trust. For instance he would be the guy to do a 360 and tell you the it's time to pull the plug.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There are probably hundreds of accountability systems out there, some cheap like the forest service's T-cards, some, like the radio operated system are very expensive. They all work if we MAKE them work, and none work if we are just going through the motions. Someplace along the line, they all have flaws of one kind or another.

Very true, but the real problem is most depts. either do not make them work (i.e. going through the motions) or do not understand the whole concept that accountability is more than just collecting tags, t-cards or radio id's.

The correct attitude starts at the bottom of the organization, the rookie, and runs all the way to the Chief.

In this case its the other way around. The probie has no say in the organization and his attitude is a reflection of those above. The FF and Jr. officers will do as instructed, unless they know that the chief(s) dont really care or enforce the rules and then they will do as they please. This one is all on the chief. If he believes this is important, then he will direct the dept to comply. Otherwise nothing happens.

The Company Officer: Like a mother duck, the company follows you and they do what you say without question. You scold them when they relieve each other and don't write the change on the riding assignment chalkboard. You are absolutely aware of your responsibility to keep your people together and safe.

This is only true if the officer (person or rank) is respected. In many places it is not and if they are voted in (or politically appointed), it is less likely they will order anything other than another slice of pizza (for those in dry stations).

The Chief Officer: You have to have a handle on everyone on the scene including the mutual aid companies. Where are they, what are they doing, are they getting into trouble.

I still see many incidents where the chief has massivly exceeded the span of control and still believes they can handle everyone & everything onscene. When something radically changes, it is too easy to miss something, and thats the entire point of having a working accountability system.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So, how, after reading all the "values" stuff above do we operate at a fire and account for all our members?

1. Operate in Companies-Groups-Divisions. The theory of ICS is in span of control. This is the easiest way for command to track everybody on the fireground

Agreed, the problem is too many depts do not maintain company (or group/division) integrity. This is a major problem with understaffed units. I see many incidents in many communities where 1 officer ends up with more guys than he started with, while others have less. THe understaffing extends to members who started by making the hydrant (part of Eng 1) ending up doing search (part of Lad 1). Most of the accountability systems that do anything more than tell us who is here, depend on unit integrity. In the above case FF Smith is listed with Engine 1 on the fire floor, when he is actually with ladder 1 on the floor above.

This is also a problem when exiting for a bottle change/rehab. I commonly see "units" where some members are ready to go right back to work, while other members are drifting back at different time.

2. If mutual aid comes in with a different Accountability system use their system to account for them. If they have tags on rings, for example, use those tags when you do a PAR

And if they don't have a system or they fail to follow it?

3. If there are several mismatched radio systems in use, you have to have a radio outside for every radio frequency inside if you don't you can miss a mayday call.

Years past, we had sent an eng & truck mutual aid. They were left inside, when the host dept. switched to a defensive operation. From that point forward we always send an additional officer with mutual aid. That officers roll is to be a liason and protect our members.

Additionally, the career depts., this year has done a major realignment of fire ground channels and those who were still on VHF moved to UHF. With a group grant an additional 90 portables were purchased for the career chiefs association. In almost all cases we can now talk on the hosts fire ground.

4. If the fire is more than just a room and contents, the IC should put a trained man on the IC board. The IC can't run a complex operation and the board at the same time and do an adequate job at both functions.

Agreed.

5. Board men should write up a IC chart on the board which shows the assignments and not just a list of the companies on-scene. They make these boards eraseable so that you can change the chart as needed. For example if E-1 is taken off Fire Attack and sent to Rehab, and then to Staging, you can reflect this on your ICS chart. A list of on-scene companies tells you nothing except that they are someplace on-scene.

Agreed, but again this requires company integraty. If E-1 is sent to rehab, but E-1 driver teams up with R-1 driver then you need to know this. I have been at many command posts (as a M/A liason) and I can not remember having ever seen that documented.

In addition the most common thing I see on those boards is the list and a diagram of where every rig is, what hydrant they are using, where the lines go and where each cop car & amb is located. They never show who is working and where inside the fire building. Accountability is not knowing the location of the rigs, its knowing where the members are....starting with those in the hazard zone.

6. Give the IC a little help. Companies (or Divisions, Groups, etc.) should advise the IC by radio not only of their progress but the lack thereof as well.

Excellent, very important.

7. Last but not least, when you get there, report in to the IC. When you are demobilized, report.

Better yet, report to stagging / accountability as the IC often has his hands full.

Whew...talk about giving my 2 cents worth.

Well said. Take 20 bucks out of petty cash (inflation).

[wraftery 1,275]

Does luck count?

You would be amazed at how many injuries were avoided and how many lives have been saved by sheer luck.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You would be amazed at how many injuries were avoided and how many lives have been saved by sheer luck.

Is that sheer luck or dumb luck?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Is that sheer luck or dumb luck?

I think its a little bit of both.

[Remember585 815]

As far as "standardizing" accountability in Westchester, I was under the impression that every department - at the very least - adapted the green tag for interior personnel and red tag for exterior personnel rule. Other than that, I don't know if a specific system or way of using the tags was ever adapted.

Barry, while I see the merits of consolidation, and I am sure at some point it may happen, I don't think departments should be waiting for it to happen.

Also, in earlier posts, mention was made that it shouldn't be asked if everyone is out of the building. Aren't we all supposed to be accountable for not only ourselves but our crews? I see what you guys are driving at, but I would rather see more people asking then nobody.

The better FAS Teams in the county have been helping the accountability issue for a while now. I know that we always designate either a guy or a team to "keep tabs" on how many brothers are operating inside a fire building. Yeah, some places we've gone don't get what we are doing and think we should be nothing more than lawn shepherds, but we find that knowing how many people and where they are is beneficial to us.

As a department, we recently had an officer's meeting and discussed the topic of safety & accountability. We all agreed to make a push to have a better grasp of who is where at our incidents. Some of the approaches we're taking include mandating personnel to report to their station to ride apparatus vs. going directly to the scene, having apparatus call responding with their manpower code (how many are on board), and designating a safety and/or accountability officer at every fire or incident where applicable. We'll soon see how it works out.

Lastly, while discussing the two tag systems - we have the "luggage tag" type accountability tag system. Part of the reason we have been behind on issuing the tags is because the cards that slide into the tag/case are a pain in the neck. Does anyone know of a thinner card or a trick to make putting them together easier? Any help is appreciated - thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As far as "standardizing" accountability in Westchester, I was under the impression that every department - at the very least - adapted the green tag for interior personnel and red tag for exterior personnel rule. Other than that, I don't know if a specific system or way of using the tags was ever adapted.

I do not believe that any of the career depts are even aware of that system. We still have tags, but we only use them for going out of town, they are color coded by rank: FF - Black, Lt. & Capt - White, Chiefs - gold. Each rig has a ring with a tag that ID's the rig. Members attach their tags to it.

The reason we have gotten away from the tags is while they look good in concept, we have found that occasionally a tag is missing (because a member was detailed from another rig) or there are "extras" at shift change, because a member going off forgot to remove it and the officer has not yet checked it.

The bigger problem was the "chain". I have often been the accoutability officer (not an official title on our job, but default by running the CP). On a working fire we would collect each rigs ring (7 or 8 rigs + staff). Each ring has 3-4 tags....thats approximatly 30 tags that are all channed together. They would hang from the command board down to the ground. On the few occassions when we needed to figure out who was where or had to remove a tag (like when a member is transported by EMS off the scene), it was a major production to sort thru that mess to find them. I never had to search under the pressure of a missing member or mayday and at that time I would have other responsabilities on top of that. While this would not be very workable in a VFD, we switched to a single page riding list for the entire onduty shift and a copy is kept in the command car & attached 2x per day to the command board. Its easy to see who is on what rig, & what radio they have.

Barry, while I see the merits of consolidation, and I am sure at some point it may happen, I don't think departments should be waiting for it to happen.

I agree accountability can not wait, but until we have standardized responses and sop's it is unlikely that we will have real accountability for our firefighters.

Also, in earlier posts, mention was made that it shouldn't be asked if everyone is out of the building. Aren't we all supposed to be accountable for not only ourselves but our crews? I see what you guys are driving at, but I would rather see more people asking then nobody.

Yes, we should not be asking, we should be confirming. The point was accountability means know where everyone (particularly those in the hazard zone) is.

Everyone so far has assumed tha the company officer is keeping track of his/her crew (as they should). But there are a few issues with this:

1)as others have mentioned, it is not uncommon for members to not be working with the officer. The FDNY trucks, being a good example as the roof & ovm do not work in the area of their officers. The driver also is often in the same situation and (particularly in short handed depts) if the driver is not pumping or running the ladder, they might be anywhere.

2)what happens if the officer goes down, calls a mayday or simply losses or cant use his radio? how do you account for him and his crew then?

The better FAS Teams in the county have been helping the accountability issue for a while now. I know that we always designate either a guy or a team to "keep tabs" on how many brothers are operating inside a fire building. Yeah, some places we've gone don't get what we are doing and think we should be nothing more than lawn shepherds, but we find that knowing how many people and where they are is beneficial to us.

Great points. Also shows why standardization is so critical.

As a department, we recently had an officer's meeting and discussed the topic of safety & accountability. We all agreed to make a push to have a better grasp of who is where at our incidents. Some of the approaches we're taking include mandating personnel to report to their station to ride apparatus vs. going directly to the scene, having apparatus call responding with their manpower code (how many are on board), and designating a safety and/or accountability officer at every fire or incident where applicable. We'll soon see how it works out.

Sounds great, I hope others do the same.

[Rsudol 0]

Now i havent been in a westchester department for just about 5 years now. Where im out in Wisconsin the county and neighboring counties all use the passport accountability method. Basically every Rig has a Red and White Tag engraved with the rig info. Each FF/EMT etc has 2 Passport tags engraved with their name and id number. When a member gets on the rig they hand over both passport tags to the OIC and he places them on the corresponding white and rad rig tags, in order OIC at top and the remianing positions in middle and MPO on the bottom upside down so eveyone knows who the MPO is. Then the Red tag stays with the rig and the white tag goes to staging and then on to operations etc. http://www.passportaccountability.com/index.html is the method and Wisconsin is heavily involved in MABAS http://www.mabaswisconsin.org/ which was started by Illinois and has expanded to a number of states.

[wraftery 1,275]

Is that sheer luck or dumb luck?

A little of both, I guess.

Also:

" Don't listen to those who tell you not to panic. Panic can save your life, provided you are the first one to panic and happen to run in the right direction." -Frank Brannigan

[16fire5 693]

The bigger problem was the "chain". I have often been the accoutability officer (not an official title on our job, but default by running the CP). On a working fire we would collect each rigs ring (7 or 8 rigs + staff). Each ring has 3-4 tags....thats approximatly 30 tags that are all channed together. They would hang from the command board down to the ground. On the few occassions when we needed to figure out who was where or had to remove a tag (like when a member is transported by EMS off the scene), it was a major production to sort thru that mess to find them. I never had to search under the pressure of a missing member or mayday and at that time I would have other responsabilities on top of that.

This is why I feel the Passport system is superior to tags. The printout is good but the problem is having it up to date. Shift change and middle of the tour medical leaves cause changes. This is one advantage of EFAS since it constantly is aware of what is being imputed but still the officer must keep their electronic riding list updated.

Queens did a pilot with chips in bunker coats that automaticly propagated an electronic riding list. I have no idea how this worked out but it would be one way to deal with the multitude of problems caused by shift change.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is why I feel the Passport system is superior to tags.

Agreed

The printout is good but the problem is having it up to date. Shift change and middle of the tour medical leaves cause changes.

like any system, its only as good as the last update. Our chiefs aide keeps it updated, and it can be updated/printed in the car.

This is one advantage of EFAS since it constantly is aware of what is being imputed but still the officer must keep their electronic riding list updated.

I believe your version and definatly our version can be updated at the car/CP. very critical for us since a 2nd alarm brings in call back.

Queens did a pilot with chips in bunker coats that automaticly propagated an electronic riding list. I have no idea how this worked out but it would be one way to deal with the multitude of problems caused by shift change.

I hear its not ready for prime time yet.