Freelancing, Buffing, etc.....

[gamewell45 258]

They are sworn peace officers with full police powers in NYS

Yes they are sworn Peace Officers and have powers of arrest, although not to the extent that a sworn Police Officer has. Some Fire-Police do have additional training above and beyond the required training such as Article 35 and in some cases are either active-duty or retired police officers.

Most Fire-Police will call for a Police officer if they feel that an arrest needs to be done. However in those very rare instances where there are no police officers around or you have a long wait for one to show up, they can place someone under arrest. Its all a judgment call when you come down to it; I highly doubt that any fire-police officer who does not feel he/she cannot handle a situation alone is going to do anything other then call for police.

[BFD1054 1,552]

In my neck of the woods and surrounding area, turnout gear is kept the fire station. There is no going direct to the scene unless you are a Chief officer or fire police. Everyone goes to the station, gears up, and the trucks roll. For mutual aid, same thing applies. If we are going mutual aid your getting there via the Big Red Truck, no POV's. It makes accountability easier, the officer on the truck knows who on his crew with what skills/certs is onboard, and can think about individual assignments enroute, under guidance from the mutual aid IC (or our chief if he is there before the truck whch often happens), who is standing right next to the mutual aid IC, asking what the apparatus/crew assignment is. There is no freelancing. You were called for a specific assignment, you will perform said assignment and when complete, you will inform the IC and await futher orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think keeping gear at the station keeps the fire dept member from A town going to B towns call (when not called by mutual aid) with the "I was in the area and saw you guys had a call so here I am to help" type of instances because he has no gear, and therefore no reason to be on the fireground. It may not work for all, but it works for us.

38ff...great post. This is exactly how my FD operates and i believe its the way most, if not all should operate. This is the point im trying to drive home; it can lead to an accountabilty disater.

Theres very few reasons why members should be going to a scene, especially a M/A call. The priority should always be properly staffing the apparatus and responding in a uniform fasion.

If you miss the rig, oh well, better luck next time. Hang at the firehouse and see if additional help may be needed.

True, but they are mostly for directing traffic, crowd control, and securing a scene until law enforcement can take control. IIRC in class they are told that under the law they can make an arrest, but it is better to notify a police officer to handle the situation if an arrest is needed. If they make the arrest, they will have to meet with the DA's office and testify in court if need be. Very few fire police officer's are going to do this on their own time.

As far as buffing, I have buffed several jobs, it is best if you keep your mouth shut, eyes open, and stay out of the way. I recently was at a scene where a homeowner was in full panic attack since I took a photo of a fire dept. operating on the outside of her house. It was easier to just to just walk away apologizing for the stressful problem she was experiencing, than to try and justify the reasoning for taking photos.

Freelancing drives me nuts. We all have seen or experienced it. Its worse when a M/A chief is the one leading it, beacause "he is the chief, and its his guys". When you come on a scene, the IC is responsible. I'm not talking about other chiefs taking on a role such as operations, or water supply. I've seen too many chiefs roll into a scene, and report to the IC, "Dept XXXX is here," and then decide to take on a function or job for his crew such as ventilation, and never notify the IC as to what he and his crew are doing.

Grumpy, believe me, i have "buffed" some jobs over the years for whatever reason. But as we established, buffing and freelancing are two different issues.

You've totally hit my point of why freelancing is bad and how it can affect a fire scene.

I do not see a problem here if we are all on the same page... example of this was a call at the Monrose VA, Croton was dispatched for FAST... I was at work, less then a minute from the VA, our FAST engine was 9 minutes away in the opposite direction, so I responded to the scene... I did call a team member heading to the FH and told them I was responding to the scene... I geared up, went to the IC and started learning what was going on, who was inside, did a quick 360 and started setting up the FAST team with the VA's RIT pack, along with a second CFD member who showed up..

So in some cases going to the scene in a POV can work, as long as the Team and rig, ( and the hosting IC ) know your going to meet them there.

Being that my office is in another fire district, I have responded to some of their " true " calls and have assisted. BUT, this only happens after I have asked the Chiefs if it is ok to show up before hand, and I report to the officer on the scene and I do as told... I am there to assist them, to work for them and not as a freelancer.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE MANY WHO DO FREE LANCE WHO NEED TO BE CONTROLLED

Bill, believe me, in the incident you describe, i have no problem with that. You informed YOUR FD and the "Host" IC of your intentions. Your FD was requested, so you really werent freelancing. Or at least in the problematic way.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Mike, you started an interesting conversation. I like the chief's differentiation between a buff and a free lancer.

Hmmm...I'm thinking I am in a weird position as a result of you raising the question. Gotta work through this (lol):

I:

*Carry old gear in my truck, a decent sized extinguisher, and a crow-bar.

*With the miles put on the southern Interstates of this great land, a car fire could be an urgent call for a good samaratan and I've not passed a motorist in obvious distress.

*Do have the good sense to stay far away when the Brothers are anywhere near. Not getting in the way is a priority for my truck company (I drive a Tahoe lol).

*Wondered if I qualified as a free-lancer, in that I'm out on the FREEway...so I had to check out what a "lancer" is:

From Dictionary.com:

Lanc·er   [lan-ser, lahn-]

noun:

a cavalry soldier armed with a lance................

*Conclude I am not a free-lancer.

Edit: sorry I used to be a class clown, it's a hard habit to let go of....please return to the serious topic at hand.

Edited December 29, 2011 by efdcapt115

[38ff 250]

EFD, you have a good point.

I belive somewhere inbetween Buff and Freelancer is the "helpful MOS or civilian good samaritan" He is the guy like yourself that assists in a small way before the Cavalry shows up. He is the guy who helps a FF hook up to a hydrant. Steadying the 4 way Hydrant valve that some depts use can make the difference between a smooth hookup and one that takes way more time than it should. I have to belive that if any of us were walking down a street and an engine pulled up, a FF gets out, grabs the hydrant bag and the LDH, and starts to hook up, that most of us would ID ourselves as a FF and offer some assistance to the guy. I'll also bet that most of us would accept the help if offered. I know I have in the past. Long ago I was the hydrant man and was hooking up in 2 feet of snow. A civilian came up and asked if I needed help, as he could see I was having a hell of a time holding the 4 way valve level and trying to thread it on. I just told him to hold the valve, he did, and I threaded it. I asked him to step back as I told the engine I was hooked up, and opened the hydrant on command. I thanked him for his help, and he went on his way. He didnt go to the scene, get in the way, he just offered a minutes worth of help when it was needed, then walking back off into the shadows. The world needs more people like that, than the ones with their cell phones out taking video repeating Oh My God over and over again.

BFD. I think that if a member DOES go to the scene for that "once in a blue moon" type of situation there needs to be a plan in place. I have seen a member call the station, tell someone to put their gear on the truck and that the member would meet them at the scene. Gear goes on truck, truck officer is notified that Joe Smith is meeting the truck at the scene, and Joe if he arrives before the truck, he waits for the truck. In the mean time, perhaps he is doing some "sidewalk sizeup" from a safe distance, perhaps calling dispatch to give more details about the call. (it is a worker/there is or isnt entrapment/extrication needed, etc) Does he get intricately involved in the scene with no gear on or tools, absolutely not. But a FF who has been around a while can do some sidewalk sizeup and relay info to the first due/chief/dispatch without setting foot on the scene from a safe distance. When truck arrives, he dons his gear/put his tags on the pass board/lets the officer know and joins the crew. This is definately the once in a blue moon type of event, not the norm.

Edited December 29, 2011 by 38ff

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I think the "attending" of other folks incidents offers a learning opportunity. Many agencies get very few actual structure fires, MCI's etc, so you can multiply your chances to see right and wrong by going to other folks calls.

BUT: At these incidents there are victims. Someone is losing life and or property. It does us all a big disservice for people to stand around wearing jackets and outerwear with FD or EMS insignia at these scenes. Add the joking, smoking, laughing, swearing and snide comments that occur and we all look like absolute crap to the 99% of the crowd who are not us.

Being able to watch an incident without the responsibility of having to participate can be a valuable learning experience. But making us all look like uncaring fools can be very wreckless. Go. Learn. Don't look like an MOS. Be respectful of the scene and its victims.

I often find the "attending" AKA buffing of others to fire scenes distracting and annoying. Not ever in my fire service career did I ever go to another departments fire unless the request was for mutual aid. Learning experience? Really? If you want to learn and stay sharp you need to have a solid comprehensive training program and take classes and even repeat those taken. The only thing I can see some are learning is what FDNY t-shirts were at the last fire service expo or new ones available on ebay.

In regards to a bill trying to get fire police faster to the scene...I have to ask for what? Seriously...of all the things we need action taken on in the fire service this is one that is being floated around right now? And some of us wonder why the state of the fire service is the way that it is in NY. Funny enough there is a comedian that does a skit about the fire SUV showing up...which for many departments that is exactly what you get first...a SUV before an apparatus. But don't worry you smell smoke in your house..or even worse...fire is blowing through your roof...we have the street blocked so when the apparatus do get out they can pull right up....and oh the others coming with their blue light shows in their cars...are sitting at a red light...but have no fear I'm hear road vest and all. Wow...some things are just mind boggling to me.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

EFD, you have a good point.

I belive somewhere inbetween Buff and Freelancer is the "helpful MOS or civilian good samaritan" He is the guy like yourself that assists in a small way before the Cavalry shows up. He is the guy who helps a FF hook up to a hydrant. Steadying the 4 way Hydrant valve that some depts use can make the difference between a smooth hookup and one that takes way more time than it should. I have to belive that if any of us were walking down a street and an engine pulled up, a FF gets out, grabs the hydrant bag and the LDH, and starts to hook up, that most of us would ID ourselves as a FF and offer some assistance to the guy. I'll also bet that most of us would accept the help if offered. I know I have in the past. Long ago I was the hydrant man and was hooking up in 2 feet of snow. A civilian came up and asked if I needed help, as he could see I was having a hell of a time holding the 4 way valve level and trying to thread it on. I just told him to hold the valve, he did, and I threaded it. I asked him to step back as I told the engine I was hooked up, and opened the hydrant on command. I thanked him for his help, and he went on his way. He didnt go to the scene, get in the way, he just offered a minutes worth of help when it was needed, then walking back off into the shadows. The world needs more people like that, than the ones with their cell phones out taking video repeating Oh My God over and over again.

Actually I find it more of a pain in the toosh when a civilian and in some cases LEO wants to come in and "help" me with a hydrant hook up..most don't what to do. I had a person once identify themselves as a "firefighter" and then proceeded to rummage through my hydrant bag in what he thought was his attempt to assist me with the hydrant and in the process removed things from the bag disrupting the process which I knew and knew exactly what I needed and where. The best thing you can do is stand back..if they want help they will ask for it..or if you see issues ask but don't just barge in. I don't know about most other people..but we are some of the most territorial people we know...and to simply put it..IMO if I can't hook up a hydrant on my own...I didn't deserve to get the job I have.

[gamewell45 258]

In regards to a bill trying to get fire police faster to the scene...I have to ask for what? Seriously...of all the things we need action taken on in the fire service this is one that is being floated around right now? And some of us wonder why the state of the fire service is the way that it is in NY. Funny enough there is a comedian that does a skit about the fire SUV showing up...which for many departments that is exactly what you get first...a SUV before an apparatus. But don't worry you smell smoke in your house..or even worse...fire is blowing through your roof...we have the street blocked so when the apparatus do get out they can pull right up....and oh the others coming with their blue light shows in their cars...are sitting at a red light...but have no fear I'm hear road vest and all. Wow...some things are just mind boggling to me.

I believe that bill died in committee.

[FFPCogs 863]

I'll jump in here with my ever so humble opinion on "helping out" neighboring departments as it applies in the volunteer world. Personally I find nothing wrong with it so long as there is a mechanism in place to assure accountability and that when "helping" one is familiar with how things are done by the department they are helping, otherwise they become a hinderance at best. I can remember back to when the roster of my FD had a space on it under the heading "non members assisting" and I can recall many fires in which such assistance was offered and accepted. If a department is going to allow non members to work jobs it is up to them to ensure that anyone who may assist in anything other than lugging a hose or hitting a hydrant is versed in their SOP/Gs. In another of my departments we regularly trained with our neighbors and on a number of occassions I assisted them especially during normal working hours if I was available, but this was only after I and my capabilities were known from those training sessions. This was not and is not freelancing it is using your expertise to assist a department in need IF they want it, which more often than not in my experience they have. Bottom line here is that to me if you are capable, willing and available you should assist if that need exists and the "host" department accepts the offer so long as doing so does not adversely affect you or your department.

Just my .$02

Happy New Year!!

Cogs

Edited December 29, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Dinosaur 844]

I do not see a problem here if we are all on the same page... example of this was a call at the Monrose VA, Croton was dispatched for FAST... I was at work, less then a minute from the VA, our FAST engine was 9 minutes away in the opposite direction, so I responded to the scene... I did call a team member heading to the FH and told them I was responding to the scene... I geared up, went to the IC and started learning what was going on, who was inside, did a quick 360 and started setting up the FAST team with the VA's RIT pack, along with a second CFD member who showed up..

So in some cases going to the scene in a POV can work, as long as the Team and rig, ( and the hosting IC ) know your going to meet them there.

Being that my office is in another fire district, I have responded to some of their " true " calls and have assisted. BUT, this only happens after I have asked the Chiefs if it is ok to show up before hand, and I report to the officer on the scene and I do as told... I am there to assist them, to work for them and not as a freelancer.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE MANY WHO DO FREE LANCE WHO NEED TO BE CONTROLLED

And if it was one single regional department all you'd have to do is show up and check in.

[Dinosaur 844]

Maybe the solution is to use stagging. If you approach the IC for an assignment (and he didnt request you), he should say: "go over to staging to check in". Now we find out who you are, what dept., etc. and we can assign you as needed...or not.

Its perfect, just like our staffing, response times, training, resource utilization and our mutual aid.

How often do you actually see staging set up and managed the way its supposed to be? Or at all?

Report to "staging" but the staging is just a point a couple houses down from the fire and nobody's there doing check-in or organizing the resources.

You're right. It's as good as our staffing, response times, and everything else you mentioned.

[SOUSGT 357]

You think buffing is a problem on the fire side, don’t get me started on what happens in the Law Enforcement:

Two issues.

1) Buffing by plainclothes detectives trying to grab a collar.

2) Pursuits were multi jurisdictional units are involved.

Our department had a rule that unmarked and plainclothes units were not permitted near a “hot call” unless they announced they were responding and all of the dispatched units acknowledged the transmission. Then the dispatcher authorized the response. This was to prevent an frendly fire incident. I can’t tell you how many times I found unauthorized on duty plain clothes officers at a scene that just happened to be driving by and saw a commotion. Funny thing, they tried to call in but their radio malfunctioned. You would file a disciplinary against them and you were the bad guy. While I did not object to the help, you have to remember these people have guns and we were always afraid of shooting a good guy.

Pursuits are another ball of wax. Everyone and their brother shows up and all have guns.

I remember searching for perps who bailed out of a stolen car in my jurisdiction that was being chased by two other departments for a bank robbery. At the time we grabbed one and were searching for any more. As my guys were checking a yard, two strange men with guns were seen. Turns out that they were detectives from another department. We spent most of the afternoon chasing “man with a gun” calls. After a while we found out that there was only one bad guy. The men with guns were all cops. Finally, we put out over the hot line for all of our “guests” to return to their jurisdictions. We were afraid a cop would get shot.

Edited December 29, 2011 by SOUSGT

[Bnechis 3,961]

Funny enough there is a comedian that does a skit about the fire SUV showing up...which for many departments that is exactly what you get first...a SUV before an apparatus. But don't worry you smell smoke in your house..or even worse...fire is blowing through your roof...we have the street blocked so when the apparatus do get out they can pull right up....

Very Funny

[wraftery 1,275]

How often do you actually see staging set up and managed the way its supposed to be? Or at all?

Report to "staging" but the staging is just a point a couple houses down from the fire and nobody's there doing check-in or organizing the resources.

You're right. It's as good as our staffing, response times, and everything else you mentioned.

If the so-called "Staging" is only a few houses down the street, you are probably at most the third due. A radio message "E-3 on-scene" and acknowledged by the IC usually is the way to check in.

Why is there no Staging Officer to check resources in? The IC didn't assign one.