Why Cancel AFA's?

[x635 4,066]

I notice a lot of Chiefs who arrive on scene and cancel responding apparatus because it's a false alarm.

Why not use this oppurtunity as a training oppurtunity? Have apparatus continue in, non-emergency mode, and practice apparatus placement. If you have time, put up the ladder and see if the pre-plan works or can be adjusted. Have members look at the challenges the building presents. Have the supply engine find the hydrants. As far as "taking time out of busy lives", when they respond to the alarm, they would spend the time fighting the fire, if that's what it was.

Cancelling apparatus also is bad for morale, when you know your responding to an AFA and know your Chief will beat you there and cancel you.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I have been waiting a while for this to be discussed. This is one of the things that annoys me the most. IMHO there is nothing worse than not getting to the scene or even rolling a rig to a good amount of alarms. I understand that there is liability having the trucks on the road for false alarms but... you could always slow down the response. After all, rigs need to be driven and it is good for drivers to get on the road as frequently as possible. It is good practice to arrive on scene and use good judgment in terms of rig placement. It is good practice for crews to pack up and to use thermal imaging cameras, sniffers, gas meters, etc to refresh themselves, or teach younger members how to use them. This is one of the pros of having members respond to the scene POV...this way they see the scene, make a size-up, etc. I know several people who run calls when they are home from work or have someone to watch the kids who have not been on a scene in a while because they are put back in service right after the rig leaves the station or do not even leave the station.

I am a big fan of checking out building, exposures, hydrant locations, etc on false alarms because it better prepares me for future calls. It is also a good time to check pre-fire plans and update them accordingly.

Another thing that bothers me that so many people do not know what types of businesses are in their districts, or what is inside of a building. It is so important to tour building in your district and to know what to expect on alarms, where the control panel is, where the sprinkler system is, standpipes, stairs, elevators, rescue windows, etc. False alarms better prepare you for real alarms.

[EMTDelta 22]

Some interesting points brought up. Although not everyone thinks that being canceled is the worst thing in the world. Going out to that AFA at 3AM in the middle of a storm, winter or otherwise, sometimes its better to just get returned instead of being out on the road and continuing in. I have heard some departments that continue apparatus in just to fill out a report. There is an IC on the scene, but they bring a typical response in just to fill out paperwork.

Understand your thoughts are for 'ideal conditions', just saying that sometimes, probably more with volunteer departments. Some people have to/want to get back home to dinner, their loved ones, or work (for those decreasing employers that allow people to leave work to attend alarms).

A GREAT resource I have found that posts a lot of "Hey, look what I found during a Medical Assist or AFA call" is:

http://www.vententersearch.com/

Lots of stories, and pictures of interesting things found, and the "oh my God that is insane" ones are nice to learn from as well. Really gives you an idea to keep all your senses about you on EVERY run.

[FFEMT150 214]

I have to agree with you on this Seth. An AFA at a commercial building could prove to be valuable training time, after all, we are always learning in this field. As far as the excuse of wanting to get back home or like you said, taking time out of our "busy lives", don't go in the first place! I have always been in the mindset that if I am rolling out with the rig, I have HOURS of time for this. The worst call you will ever go on is the next. I figure that if you are there anyways and have nothing else to do than why not try and learn something. Great topic!

[JetPhoto 626]

From a volunteer view, If I have "the time" to run out for a AFA that could be a fire I most likely don't have the time to then to sit and train. If I am an employer letting a worker run out for a legitimate call I don't want the person to then say well since I'm out I might as well train. If it's not an emergency then I should be back at work or at home with family I don't have much time to see.

Set a drill up and I'll show up, where I am able to make the time for that event. If I'm the home owner / business I don't want you climbing roofs ect if it's not necessary. Think of the possible damage and the fact that an apparatus sitting out side of the business does not look good to customers.

[comical115 32]

Cancelling apparatus also is bad for morale, when you know your responding to an AFA and know your Chief will beat you there and cancel you.

It hides the fact that you don't have proper staffing to get an engine out the door in the first place...

[Bnechis 3,961]

False alarms better prepare you for real alarms.

AFA are not always False Alarms. This is a big mistake in termonology.

A false Alarm is when there is no legit reason for the alarm. Smoke from cooking (burn popcorn in microwave), steam from the shower, dust from workers, candles, etc. The system did what it was designed to do, so its not a false alarm, its an accidental or unintentional alarm.

It is important that the public understands this so they do not ignor alarms in the future.

[50-65 205]

There is a department in our area that, due to the high number of false or unintentional alarms at a particular place, responds with a chief officer and 1 engine. All other apparatus is to be manned, in quarters.

We frequently get AFA's from a commercial building in our district. Almost always, it is a broken sprinkler head. Our first responding unit is often told this by county. However, we still continue with a full response of (potentially)3 engines, a truck, and 2 rescues. For a broken sprinkler? Really? 3 million dollars of taxpayer apparatus on the road burning hundreds of dollars of taxpayer fuel for what? A 2am "training" session?

We have had 2 fires at this location. Neither came in as AFA.

I'm not saying that all AFA's should be handled the same, but most districts have the frequent offenders.

On most AFA's where we do not know the cause prior to arrival we do apparatus placement, check hydrants, and set up the truck.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

AFA are not always False Alarms. This is a big mistake in termonology.

A false Alarm is when there is no legit reason for the alarm. Smoke from cooking (burn popcorn in microwave), steam from the shower, dust from workers, candles, etc. The system did what it was designed to do, so its not a false alarm, its an accidental or unintentional alarm.

It is important that the public understands this so they do not ignor alarms in the future.

Absolutely true Bnechis. I was not saying that AFA's are false alarms, but rather referring to AFA's that in fact turn out to be false alarms.

[Dinosaur 844]

I notice a lot of Chiefs who arrive on scene and cancel responding apparatus because it's a false alarm.

Why not use this oppurtunity as a training oppurtunity? Have apparatus continue in, non-emergency mode, and practice apparatus placement. If you have time, put up the ladder and see if the pre-plan works or can be adjusted. Have members look at the challenges the building presents. Have the supply engine find the hydrants. As far as "taking time out of busy lives", when they respond to the alarm, they would spend the time fighting the fire, if that's what it was.

Just another example of what's wrong with the system. You're right. A lot of training can be accomplished on these calls but most people just want to get their name on the check-list of who showed up for other reasons than training or firefighting and then disappear back into the woodwork.

From a volunteer view, If I have "the time" to run out for a AFA that could be a fire I most likely don't have the time to then to sit and train. If I am an employer letting a worker run out for a legitimate call I don't want the person to then say well since I'm out I might as well train. If it's not an emergency then I should be back at work or at home with family I don't have much time to see.

Set a drill up and I'll show up, where I am able to make the time for that event. If I'm the home owner / business I don't want you climbing roofs ect if it's not necessary. Think of the possible damage and the fact that an apparatus sitting out side of the business does not look good to customers.

Wrong answer. If you have the time for the alarm, you have time for 20-30 minutes of useful training. That's all that this would take and we used to run drills like this all the time. It can be a very valuable experience for those who show up and can actually increase participation because its no longer just a wasted trip it's training too. To position apparatus, receive assignments, deploy with appropriate equipment, TIC the building, and even throw up the stick/bucket doesn't require a lot of time or preparation. Just do what you'd do if the place was on fire. If you don't have time for that you shouldn't have responded in the first place.

The problem with doing this exclusively on drill nights is there are far more people (usually) and the same people will push to do all the work while the wall-flowers sit by and don't get the experience. On the AFA call you probably have 1/2 or 1/3 the number of people and some of the wall-flowers will have to be your go-getters. That's also a realistic issue for the officers giving out assignments. Giving out assignments is easy on drill night because you've got so many people but at the actual alarm when you've got 6 instead of 16 it can be a real challenge.

You don't have to put people on the roof, just throw the ladder or bucket up and have guys go up and see what kind of roof it actually is? Is it covered with wires that will be hazards to you during a real fire? Is it covered with heavy equipment like AC units and the like? Or is it a truss roof that may be susceptible to collapse? Do all your people know that already? I doubt it. TIC the roof and identify what equipment is operating.

If the occupant/owner doesn't like you doing a pre-plan they need an education and that can be the Chief's job while you're there.

What do they say about an ounce of prevention?

There is a department in our area that, due to the high number of false or unintentional alarms at a particular place, responds with a chief officer and 1 engine. All other apparatus is to be manned, in quarters.

We frequently get AFA's from a commercial building in our district. Almost always, it is a broken sprinkler head. Our first responding unit is often told this by county. However, we still continue with a full response of (potentially)3 engines, a truck, and 2 rescues. For a broken sprinkler? Really? 3 million dollars of taxpayer apparatus on the road burning hundreds of dollars of taxpayer fuel for what? A 2am "training" session?

We have had 2 fires at this location. Neither came in as AFA.

On most AFA's where we do not know the cause prior to arrival we do apparatus placement, check hydrants, and set up the truck.

3 million dollars of apparatus on the road or in the firehouse. What's the difference?

The fuel cost is budgeted already so the only thing you're expending is a little time.

One of the biggest complaints I used to hear is not enough training, not enough training or stupid training that doesn't do us any good. If apparatus placement, equipment orientation and deployment, and small unit tactics isn't valuable I don't know what is.

To all those who say they don't have time, I say: "train the way you fight, fight the way you train". If you're conditioning everyone to believe that responses are a waste of time they're not going to be prepared when they roll up and have fire rolling out the windows.

There are very few excuses NOT to train when the opportunity presents itself. You're responding anyway, might as well make it worth the trip.

All these people with all these excuses not to train. It's sad and its scary. With that attitude I doubt you're getting enough training to begin with.

[Alwaysinheat 26]

Alot of good points were brought up in this tread. Responding in a personal vehicle isnt one of them. The IC at the AFA should use there judgement when making the run into a drill as active and as much as I like to train and enjoy teaching others on runs like this, I like to eat and sleep with my family. So alot of aspects need to come into play when making this call to turn a run into a training session. We all know the members that are interested in learning and the ones that are not. And we all have the guys that need to learn rig placement and positioning etc etc.

Any how stay safe train hard and have a safe Holiday!

[x635 4,066]

I'm sayingt this type odf training shold be done with every incident, as there are certain structures that it's inappropriate, and that's at the Officer's discretion. I'm sure if the Officer was able to contact the manager, especially during "off hours", and asked if his firefighters could look over the building to that they can learn, I think most managers wouldn't have an issue.

As for the time taken out of the day for AFA's, that's part of the job. If it was a fire, I'm sure a lot of people would find that time.

Some interesting points brought up. Although not everyone thinks that being canceled is the worst thing in the world. Going out to that AFA at 3AM in the middle of a storm, winter or otherwise, sometimes its better to just get returned instead of being out on the road and continuing in.

If Apparatus Operators, especially newer ones, don't get experience driving in the snow, then that is a big deal. Snow is an excellent way to train in driving a fire appartus or ambulance. Heck, in Hartsdale when it snow, we went to a large parking lot at the Town Park and learned about driving in the snow. We also had to pracrice driving in the snow on the real roadways, and the effect of the strobe, etc. How many younger guys get that chance?

Also, for interoperability, DPW should be in our radio bank, so if a plow or spreader is needed, it is there.The dispatcher could patch into the fireground channel, and request the plow where needed.

We also learned how to plow two stations, but that's a different story.