Mutual Aid - When does it end?

[helicopper 1,050]

Interesting discussion came up recently that I have the opportunity to listen to and I think the question fits our area's operations very well.

When does mutual aid end? In other words, at what point does it stop being stop gap emergency assistance and start becoming the augmentation of a system or service?

Please look at the big picture and not at a single resource response to a short-term incident (like a FAST truck to a fire) but rather a five day fire or a week-long suspect search.

When the NYS Fire and EMS mutual aid plans are used to mobilize resources from across the state for a major incident (ice storm, hurricane, etc.) and the incident duration is weeks instead of hours, do the mutual aid resources have the right to request reimbursement for their expenses?

[PEMO3 523]

Ok I'll get the ball rolling. I would say that agencies not only have a right but are justified at some point to request reimbursement for mobilized responses especially if the initial jurisdiction is requesting reimbursement for their response. Another aspect that needs to be looked at with these long term (and short term) mutual aid responses is the impact they have on the responding agencies primary area of responsibility. Do they strip needed, non-duplicatable resources from their primary area? Are enough personnel, officers and equipment left behind to adequately cover their primary area? Is there a personnel relief plan for your members?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Mutual aid will be a necessity in 98% of the US likely forever. While most FD's should be far more capable of handling "routine" fires and emergencies, those smaller cities and communities with never have the staffing and equipment to handle multiple greater alarm fires simultaneously, large scale disasters or other resource taxing events. In fact, right now it's likely that more FD's are increasing the need for M.A due to budget cuts. Even without cuts far too many of us run at bare bones or less. The taxpayers have little sympathy when they beleive their publicly funded employees are underutilized in their minds. Most of us have less than what we need to be truly efficient at most calls, so those once a year or decade fires we can't even hope to contain without outside aid. Outside of some larger metro FD's I doubt we'll ever see mutual aid go away. Can we stop it from being used to gut FD's? I hope so. If we need daily/weekly M.A we should seriously consider that we're not providing the level of service our incidents are demanding.

[Monty 35]

Mutual aid will be a necessity in 98% of the US likely forever. While most FD's should be far more capable of handling "routine" fires and emergencies, those smaller cities and communities with never have the staffing and equipment to handle multiple greater alarm fires simultaneously, large scale disasters or other resource taxing events. In fact, right now it's likely that more FD's are increasing the need for M.A due to budget cuts. Even without cuts far too many of us run at bare bones or less. The taxpayers have little sympathy when they beleive their publicly funded employees are underutilized in their minds. Most of us have less than what we need to be truly efficient at most calls, so those once a year or decade fires we can't even hope to contain without outside aid. Outside of some larger metro FD's I doubt we'll ever see mutual aid go away. Can we stop it from being used to gut FD's? I hope so. If we need daily/weekly M.A we should seriously consider that we're not providing the level of service our incidents are demanding.

Interesting comments. I guess there are many ways this can be looked at.

I read helicopper's post as meaning long duration mutual aid incidents, such as the Irene/Lee flooding. I know members from Westchester and other counties went for 3 days or more. I doubt those volunteers will see any reimbursement. What about career firefighters that go to such events? Their home department is still paying them (Don't know how they would count the duty hours - I suppose through the 12 hours period they are 'working')?

However, with antiquefirelt's post, what about those 2 or 3 hour jobs that you get called to? What about those departments that are giving more than they are receiving? (Hypothetically SFRD and SVFD?) I remember seeing some comments about the overtime that Westport FD had due to the mutual aid rendered to Bridgeport. It was bit of an anomaly due to the LODD.

Are we going to see a change, especially in these hard economic times of charging for mutual aid? Would that effect calling Mount Vernon instead of New Rochelle? Would departments cancel their mutual aid agreement if this happened? How would that work if none would give you mutual aid ....

Given past history, I don't see anything changing soon - however there may be someone out there that decides to try something along these lines - I know in the last month or two there was talk of a city manager withdrawing mutual aid to the surrounding volunteer department.

[TSull 33]

I think another thing to look at is whether or not the long term event is going to be classified as a "disaster" and whether or not "disaster assistance" is going to be allocated by either private, state or federal resources. If yes, then every department that provided "mutual aid" should be compensated/reimbursed for costs incurred. Look at the FDNY's mutual aid response to the city of New Orleans after Katrina. Every FDNY member who responded was paid for his/her entire deployment (24/7 x 2)plus their shifts in NYC had to be covered details/ot. I am sure the City of New York then requested reimbursement from FEMA after all the accounting was done.

[61MACKBR1 222]

It ends with a complete (and un-abstructed) Consolidation Plan

[xfirefighter484x 234]

mu·tu·al

adj

\ˈmyü-chə-wəl, -chəl, -chü-əl; ˈmyüch-wəl\

Definition of MUTUAL

1 a : directed by each toward the other or the others <mutual affection>

b : having the same feelings one for the other <they had long been mutual enemies>

c : shared in common <enjoying their mutual hobby> d : joint

Mutual, in and of it's nature, means it is shared by both parties. Mutual ends when it stops working both ways. Some departments use the 'mutual' system to add numbers for their runs, and to aid in justification of existence. No longer it seems, is the majority of 'mutual aid' as such, it is more automatic assistance.