South Fulton, TN responds, but watched home burn... again

[JohnnyOV 2]

Remember that story from a year ago about the TN department that watched a home burn, well it happened again and the community is up in arms about it again....

http://www.wpsdlocal...-135069773.html

The way the law is written seems pretty simple to me, and I've only briefly read up on TN's law. You have two different tax agencies, the city of South Fulton, and the unincorporated county tax regions. The City of South Fulton has a fire tax associated with it, and it's residents are required to pay. This ensures adequate fire protection for the city limits, and ensures a prompt and guaranteed effort to extinguish the fire. The unincorporated areas of the county (meaning they do not fall under any town or city limit lines) have 0 fire tax to pay. There are no fire departments, or other services in that area, unless there is a specific county tax for that service. People choose to live there because it is considerably cheaper, but do so knowing that many of the services the cities and towns have, they will not receive. As strictly a courtesy, the City of South Fulton has put a program in place, that for a nominal fee of $75 a year ($6.25 a month [less then a 6 pack of your finest canned beverage]) your home will be protected under their fire department. The department has no legal responsibility to respond or provide any type of service otherwise. Apparently, however, if there is a severe life safety issue of someone trapped, they will actually attempt rescue and suppression.

The people down there know about the fee, but feel that fire protection is a right, and not a privilege. Not being from the area, and never having to deal with this, I'm not sure how I feel about the entire situation.

On the one hand, it simply comes down to fire protection being a service. Service costs money, and that money is needed to be collected somehow. If you fight just one fire where the property owner didn't pay, it sets a precedent for the other owners of "Well if Mr. Jones didn't pay and still received the service, why should my family pay if they're still going to come out and do it for free? Sure you can suggest an "after service fee" of some amount that would cover costs, but if a homeowner isn't willing, or is unable to pay $75 a year, why / how would they then pay to cover the more exorbitant amount?

On the other hand, I signed up to perform a service to my community, and those who truly need help. It's what I enjoy doing, and want to be able to ensure the trust of those who we protect. I have serious doubts if I could respond to someone's home burning, and not set up something that at least gave the appearance we were doing anything to assist the situation. Luckily we're never going to have to deal with this in our county, and it's quite clear who gets fire protection... everyone. I understand why most of the people are upset at the situation, you dial 911 and expect someone to arrive and help you, and it is a real disheartening feeling when they arrive and only standby and watch.

I have to lean more towards my original thought though. These people knew, which was clearly stated in the article, about the service fee and refused to pay it. TECHNICALLY speaking, this home fell out of the jurisdiction of South Fulton, and is not part of their community, but what really makes a community? Town lines, common factors among people, school rivalries, fire tax lines?

Obviously I'm torn between the two lines, hence my wishy/washy last paragraph. I have no right answer on the situation.

What's your take on it?

Edit: POLL UP... Thanks Mods

Edited December 6, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[newsbuff 286]

It's like the old saying, you get what you pay for. If we(public services) start doing things for free because it's what's morally right, we won't be around very long. The people will fight and say, as was stated above, he didn't pay and still got protection, so im not going to pay. Our money will dry up faster than you can blink an eye.

Edited December 6, 2011 by newsbuff

[PEMO3 523]

I would love to know on a separate but related aspect where the insurance companies stand. Can someone insure a home and not pay for fire protection knowing they will protected if the need arose? Will a mortgage company allow a homeowner to opt out of fire protection to save $75 a year? Sort of like bungee jumping without measuring the rope and just hoping it is not a few inches too long. At the same time you also have to question the moral character of a group of men who can willingly just stand by and watch a family entire life go up in smoke without ever lifting a finger after responding, $75 or not. I understand the excuse is they respond to ensure that there is no risk to life at which time they would act but how do you assess that without a primary search? With that said how do you do a primary search without a initial attack to protect your personnel? I realize this is a political issue in another state has been hashed out before.

[CTFF 65]

The homeowner and her boyfriend knew the FD's policy and chose not to pay because they did think they would suffer a fire.

[newsbuff 286]

I would love to know on a separate but related aspect where the insurance companies stand. Can someone insure a home and not pay for fire protection knowing they will protected if the need arose? Will a mortgage company allow a homeowner to opt out of fire protection to save $75 a year? Sort of like bungee jumping without measuring the rope and just hoping it is not a few inches too long. At the same time you also have to question the moral character of a group of men who can willingly just stand by and watch a family entire life go up in smoke without ever lifting a finger after responding, $75 or not. I understand the excuse is they respond to ensure that there is no risk to life at which time they would act but how do you assess that without a primary search? With that said how do you do a primary search without a initial attack to protect your personnel? I realize this is a political issue in another state has been hashed out before.

If you arrive on scene, and the homeowner is standing in front of the house and says, "I was the only one home at the time, there's nobody else in there." Granted, the person could be covering up a crime, or an arsonist could be inside. But we could "what if" this to death(like we normally do).

[robert benz 344]

I have a couple of thoughts, this isnt anything new, been going on for years, the people know about it, and roll the dice. No different than laying off police and firefighters and the residents clap and say sorry but i want lower taxes, (but in turn expect the same services).

I hear this "moral high ground" sentiment and have to think, what if a firefighter got injuried during the fire that his dept, in writing, isnt supposed to be involved in, does the municipality have the right to then refuse to pay for treatment. Or how about the injuried firefighter sues the officer for sending him into a situation that is clearly outside of his dept sop's.

The "we are firefighters and have to do something" has to be based on sound principal's and training. 50 - 60 % of deaths at confined space incidents are would be rescuer's.

What about the thougt process that balances 75.00 against your home.

We dont have this problem on the east coast yet, but listen up as the people weigh taxes against services in all communities, career and volunteer.

[PEMO3 523]

Robert I agree with your points 100%. This seems like a can of worms that was opened as the law written. They would have been better served to have taken an all or nothing approach than to put their first responders in the tough spot while the politicians are safe at home. Imagine the feeling of a line officer who gives the order to pull back for a bill not paid and watches as a father, mother and their small kids pleads to save their home as it burns to the ground. Even worse imagine if there was a clerical or accounting error and the bill was in fact paid. While I realize what you are saying is totally on point and this issue like so many others have been beaten to death, we must also remember that at the end of the day when that uniform comes off we are also human and have to deal with the toll that the decisions we make have on us. It is the reason that first responders have such a high substance/alcohol abuse rate, divorce rate and suicide rate. It is not as high for the law makers.

[foreman1923 22]

I would love to meet the fire chief and crews of this department how they can stand there knowing what they are doing is morally wrong is beyond me.... I mean hell couldnt they put the fire out then bill the home owner or insurance companies for back taxes or just services rendered?

[antiquefirelt 994]

While it seems ludicrous to most of us, this is the system that they have in place and had they attacked any fire in a non-member's home they'd collapse the system. As was mentioned above, what happens to a member who is hurt when they're operating outside their mission?

For those of you who think fire protection is a right and should be granted equally, how might that be accomplished? How much fire protection does the "right" provide? And "equally"? At who's level do we set the bar? And what would this cost? Life's not as simple in some places.

[CTFF 65]

I would love to meet the fire chief and crews of this department how they can stand there knowing what they are doing is morally wrong is beyond me.... I mean hell couldnt they put the fire out then bill the home owner or insurance companies for back taxes or just services rendered?

Would you like to be that chief when he has to tell a family dad's not coming home because we decided to fight a fire not in our district?

Or a homeowner who's paid the fee or their taxes, sorry we couldn't respond to your fire because we were out fighting a fire of a non-payer?

[wraftery 1,275]

200 years ago, here in the US, you purchased fire inurance for your home and were isued a firemark ( placque) for your front door. It signified that you were insured by that company. The volunteer fire companies were funded by insurance companies, and were not public agenies. If they pulled up (actually pulled up because their equipment was hand-drawn)and you did not have a firemark, they didn't put your fire out. So, the problem in Fulton is nothing new.

I see talk about a lack of morality on the part of the firefighters, What about the morality of the Fulton homeowners who would not pay their $75/year? They know the deal because the same thing has happened before and was widely publicized. Not only did they take a chance and lost, but by not paying, they lower the FD's ability to protect the community because its funds are lower.

I have known and worked with Chief Benz for a long time, and agree with his thoughts about life safety of the non paying homeowner, potential FF injuries, etc. I know full well that Chief Benz would pull up and take ALL these thoughts, analyze them, and do the right thing. Remember, however, that this analysis has to take under 30 seconds and a decision has to be made. Personally, I am quite certain that I could let that house burn and protect the paying exposures. If the non-paying homeowner was not accounted for and possibly inside, I would have to extend my size-up to 45 seconds and then render my answer.

[firebuff860 54]

If anything, it shows a lack of regard to the residents of Fulton County that their local government lets this happen. I would think that firefighters would not blame the Dept for following orders. I am sure that these resident's can not opt out of paying school, police and other taxes, why let them opt out of fire tax? Oh that's right, as the homeowner stated to the newspaper, we never thought it would happen to us.

And to Foreman 1923, how would you feel if you lived in that area, your house was on fire and the Dept was unavailable beacause they were fighting a fire on a property that did not and does not pay the taxes you pay? And it is not like we are talking big bucks here, it is 75 dollars a year which is 1.44 a week or .20 cents a day.

[PEMO3 523]

200 years ago, here in the US, you purchased fire inurance for your home and were isued a firemark ( placque) for your front door. It signified that you were insured by that company. The volunteer fire companies were funded by insurance companies, and were not public agenies. If they pulled up (actually pulled up because their equipment was hand-drawn)and you did not have a firemark, they didn't put your fire out. So, the problem in Fulton is nothing new.

Thank you for this information. I learn something new everyday.

[JetPhoto 626]

I can fall ill have no insurance and still be taken care of but if I have no insuance and my home catch's on fire it has no chance of being saved.

JUST ANOTHER REASON THE USA SHOULD STOP SENDING BILLIONS TO OTHER COUNTRYS AND SPEND IT HERE!

[ny10570 745]

So if I choose to not get homeowners insurance, I should be able to come back and say oops looks like I need it now. Do you still question the moral character of a group of people that can allow someone to become homeless and broke after watching all their belongings go up in smoke. How about someone buying car insurance after after they wrapped the car around a tree?

The firefighters have an obligation to protect their community and the out of district homes paying the fees. The residents of Mt Vernon have the choice to pay for the dept they have or could absolutely get together and ask for a level of service on par with FDNY. They cannot however call NYC and ask that FDNY come because they'd rather have them come. These residents chose to forgo fire protection. This isn't one dept saying no, you're the responsibility of a different department so we're not going to help. These people chose to not have fire protection.

[ny10570 745]

I am sure that these resident's can not opt out of paying school, police and other taxes, why let them opt out of fire tax? Oh that's right, as the homeowner stated to the newspaper, we never thought it would happen to us.

All over the country people opt out of these services. If you live in an area without a school district or community without schools you would be required to pay to go to the nearby schools. Communities without police protection turn to state or county level departments.

[helicopper 1,050]

A few questions...

Are there any unincorporated areas of New York that are not part of a village, town, city, fire district, school district, etc.?

Would all those who paid (and supported the system) have cause to sue if the FD put out the fire of a non-subscriber? It's like the Tea Party people who are suing municipalities all over the country because they paid for permits to occupy and use the spaces now being occupied for free by the "occupy' movement.

To all those who assert that fire protection is a right, on what do you base that? Where is it written that we're all entitled to fire protection as a "right"?

Great discussion! Thanks for all the interesting reading.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Out west, there are a lot of FIRE PROTECTION DISTRICTS that cover a large area for subscription. Its the same thing as a fire district or municipal fire department we are accustomed to here in the North East. Just like Wraftery stated, you had to pay the insurance companies 200 years ago for fire protection. The old NYC Fire Patrol Salvage Corps was one of the last remnants of that sort of system. Back then you didn't fight fires mainly because they were too far gone to control for bucket brigades and old goose-neck, bucket-filled hand pumpers. You went in and salvaged everything you could, thus the salvage corps.

The occupants knew they had to pay for rural fire protection for it to be provided. That is how they are funded for rural protection is by subscription, you don't pay into it, you don't get it.

Also not for nothing, that was a trailer home, by the time that department probably got to it to put it out, it more than likely was well involved. Sorry but I wouldn't even think of crawling into one of those death traps to put a fire out if there was no life safety.

[FireMedic049 597]

I can fall ill have no insurance and still be taken care of but if I have no insuance and my home catch's on fire it has no chance of being saved.

JUST ANOTHER REASON THE USA SHOULD STOP SENDING BILLIONS TO OTHER COUNTRYS AND SPEND IT HERE!

There really is no correlation between the perils of not purchasing subscription fire protection and US foreign aid.

[Guest truck1234]

I'am suprised the insurance co. didn't require them to purchase their subscription be for they insured their home.

[gamewell45 258]

I would love to meet the fire chief and crews of this department how they can stand there knowing what they are doing is morally wrong is beyond me.... I mean hell couldnt they put the fire out then bill the home owner or insurance companies for back taxes or just services rendered?

We have a term for people like that who pay no taxes and expect services when there home is threatened by fire; Freeloaders. America is full of them; they want something for nothing.

You can't do a "bill after the fact". What would then happen is that most people wouldn't pay a penny until they needed the fire department to respond and then they'd be waiting outside with their checkbook. Most fire departments cannot operate in that fashion. They have bills to pay and need to budget accordingly.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'am suprised the insurance co. didn't require them to purchase their subscription be for they insured their home.

If those rural homes are more than 5 miles outside the city, the insurance industry automatically assigns them a ppc #10. Which means they charge them based on the understanding that any fire will be a total loss. Regardless of the FD, its capability or its rating.

[Monty 35]

I can fall ill have no insurance and still be taken care of but if I have no insuance and my home catch's on fire it has no chance of being saved.

Without going too far off topic - my comment is that you can somewhat be taken care of. Yes, you'll receive some immediate life saving treatment.

However, if you fall ill with a chronic disease - your quality of care is much, much different if you jhave no health insurance compared to someone with health insurance.

[ny10570 745]

And in this case if your life is at risk the FD will intervene.

[JackEMT 77]

Is there any statistics on how many subscribers they have and what the call volume is to these subscribers?

It is a known plan, home owners know they have to pay for the coverage and they make that choice.

Do any department charge for services versus doing a subscription plan? Instead of charging $75 for the year, charge $50 for all calls and $150 for a full alarm response. Would home insurance cover this?

[CFD048 32]

When i was stationed in Georgia in the early 80's i joined the local vol fire agency there. they had 3 choices for fire protection. 1) if you volunteered all protection came with your service. 2) you could pay 50.00 per year for fire protection. 3) if you did neither of these you were charged $250.00 for 1st piece of apparatus $100.00 per vehicle after that and $500.00 per mutual aid apparatus. it seemed to work pretty good down there. the local gov'ts supported this and if you didn't pay you took a chance loosing your home or what property was left.