Westchester Apparatus Numbering System

[Steve 78]

Being a Rockland County guy. Can somebody explain to me how Westchester came up with there apparatus numbering system.

Is there any rhyme or reason to it?

[PVFD113 6]

I could list the apparatus(that would take a while)(may be a thread here already)--as to how they came up with it--not sure. Putnam's is easy though--

[GFD70 4]

I don't know how the apparatus numbers are assigned, however car numbers are assigned by using the departments ID # (ex. Greenville - #215) and then adding the car # (ex. 2151, 2152 etc.). The apparatus assingment list can be found here:

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/ap...tus/APP2005.pdf

[LCFD994 8]

If I am not mistaken back in the early days when "60 Control" was located in the Pelham area, they started numbering the apparatus 1,2,3 etc.. Thats why you see the lower numbers in the lower part of the County, and they just continued going upwards.

This is how it was explained to me years ago, dont know if it is 100% true.

[roeems87 0]

On this website there are aparatus lists. I am not sure how the engines and ladders got there numbers, but as for the supervisor cars, they are all based on their assigned numbers as stated above. Every FD has a 3 digit ID number, then 1-9 of whatever they would like to define each car. Besides that, EMS agencies all start with a two digit number. What's odd is that they are defined as 4 digits though. For example, Eastchester EMS is Dept. 5700, our vehicles are 57B1, B2, B4, M1, then all the officers start with 11-19 (5711, 5712, and so on). In some places the members have their own identifiers starting at 5720, 5721, blah blah blah. Those numbers all start at 50 and move up alphabetically in a list. The only numbers less than 50 seem to be the paid servies, i.e. Empress, Metrocare/Transcare, New Rochelle, Westchester Medics, Yorktown Medics (Empress), etc. So that's what I know about it, not much really.

[doug_e 0]

For the apparatus there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. FDNR has E23... Pelham has E1..., FDMV has E201... and YFD has E301... Pleasantville has an E90 and an E259. It looks as though the county has grown more than what was anticipated when the scheme was designed. That list here: http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/ap...tus/APP2005.pdf

The departments are loosely numbered alphabetically starting with 201 (Ardsley), 202 (Armonk), no 203, 204 (Bedford), 205 (Briarcliff), etc. Then the department cars are numbered, e.g. Briarcliff 2051 through 2059.

There are a few numbering sequence problems as with Archville alphabetically coming before Ardsley but numbered 263. There seem to be more issues early on in the numbering and become fewer and logical as you move forward through the list. That list is available here:

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/fo...ms/Chmailst.pdf

[mfc2257 464]

The numbering system in Westchester has no rhyme or reason to it. Basically what it has come down to is each department based on availablility of numbers has reserved spots for apparatus. For example, even though Millwood only has E-245, 247, 248 in service right now, numbers 244, 246 are reserved either for future use or because they were used in the past.

Other numbers are assigned based on how many prior apparatus of its kind are in existance in the county, for example Tanker 16 in Somers is literally the 16th (really the 15th as Tanker 13 doesn't exist) Tanker in the county.

I've said it on this site more than a few times before, that the "on a whim" numbering system in the county needs to be eliminated. Each department needs to be assigned a department number and all officer/apparatus designations need to be based off of it.

Millwood is currently department 25 if I remember correctly.... The numbering should work as follows.

Cars 2251, 52, 53 become Chiefs 25-1, 25-2, 25-3

Captain 2254 becomes Captain 25... Same for other officers

E-245, 247, 248 become E25-1, 25-2, 25-3

R-36 becomes R-25

T-15 becomes T-25

MA-10 becomes MA-25

U-44 becomes U-25

Nothing better than being at a fire and having a million different units with the same identifier... Example... You could have MA-10 (Millwood), T-10 (Croton), and R-10 (Bedford Hills) all working at the same incident if it occured somewhere on R-100 or Rt 35.... In that case I'd feel bad for whomever was doing apparatus staging for Somers at that call... You'd have a unit with a #10 identifier coming from South, East and West....As a dispatcher, IC or anyone else on the fire ground it would be nice (and a lot clearer) to know that when Chief 25 is talking to MA-25 about a draft to E25-1 that all those guys are from the same department instead of hearing 2251 telling MA-10 that E-247 is ready for water...

Sounds silly after a while.

[TRUCK6018 50]

The departments are loosely numbered alphabetically starting with 201 (Ardsley), 202 (Armonk), no 203, 204 (Bedford), 205 (Briarcliff), etc. Then the department cars are numbered, e.g. Briarcliff 2051 through 2059.

Dept 203 is Bedford Hills

[TRUCK6018 50]

Nothing better than being at a fire and having a million different units with the same identifier... Example... You could have MA-10 (Millwood), T-10 (Croton), and R-10 (Bedford Hills) all working at the same incident if it occured somewhere on R-100 or Rt 35.... In that case I'd feel bad for whomever was doing apparatus staging for Somers at that call... You'd have a unit with a #10 identifier coming from South, East and West....As a dispatcher, IC or anyone else on the fire ground it would be nice (and a lot clearer) to know that when Chief 25 is talking to MA-25 about a draft to E25-1 that all those guys are from the same department instead of hearing 2251 telling MA-10 that E-247 is ready for water...  

What's even worse is when Somers Chief car "2441" operates at an incident with Putnam Valley's tanker "24-4-1". Yes, it has happened, and that's confusing!

[Guest]

Is it really that difficult to remember what engines/ladders are where? I've only been around with a FD in this area for a year and I feel that it would be safe to say that I know every unit ID in the Sound Shore. Its really not that difficult to remember. No one needs to know the entire county. All you need to be aware of is those who surround you and perhaps a couple more a town further away.

[x635 4,066]

Is it really that difficult to remember what engines/ladders are where?  I've only been around with a FD in this area for a year and I feel that it would be safe to say that I know every unit ID in the Sound Shore.  Its really not that difficult to remember.  No one needs to know the entire county.  All you need to be aware of is those who surround you and perhaps a couple more a town further away.

Except if you're a dispatcher, or an IC with a bazillion things going on, or it's 2AM , or it's a large scale incident. Also the noted confusion in apparatus identifiers, coupled with the way 46.26 is. Or remembering every unit, especially those that don't go out every day. The current numbering system, although SOME may be able to easily remember it, is not clear, simple, organized, or straightfoward.

The way EMS is numbered in this county is perfect.

(Agency)-(Level)-(Unit)

For example

Yonkers EMS Paramedic Ambulance 1 (AKA Medic 30 on the Empress system, or Yonkers Ambulance 1)

33-A-1

Simple!

BTW, It's not that hard to remember, if you're an "enthusiast"....and I am, and I still have trouble remembering and keeping up with it all!!!

[mfc2257 464]

635's got it right... It's not hard to remember if you are an enthusiast.

There are lots of positive things about the fire service in Westchester County and I miss it terribly now that I live in a mostly career department state, BUT there is a lot that still needs to be fixed in Westchester to make the fire service safer for the firefighters and more effective for the public. Apparatus and department numbering is just one item on the list that includes other items such as dispatch and operations on the same frequency and so on.

None of these items will be fixed until two things happen.

1: Someone is hired with a proven trackrecord of running a combination career/volunteer countywide emergency service program. This person has to be paid what they deserve (imagine that) and empowered to make choices (like numbering and frequency changes) that will not necessarily sit well with all departments in the county.

2: The old and very fragile ego's that drive inter and intra fire department politics need to be eliminated. There way to many politically motivated fireground decisions made with regard to mutual aid and other key fireground decisions in Westchester. Anyone who's still "doing it because thats the way it's always been" needs to step aside. Old traditions are important for ceremony, parades, and stories with the boys while out at night, but at the fireground there is only room for one decision and that is the one that regardless of friendship, tradition, ego, or allegiance, is made in the best interest of the firefighters and publics safety.

The numbering system is just a small part of a long laundry list of things that need to be improved. Westchester has some of the most innovative and talented individual fire departments that I've seen (not to mention some damn good dispatchers that are rock solid under heavy fire). The county structure and support is all that is missing.

[Guest]

ALright, well said both. I especially have to agree with the slow speed at which change is implemented. There is too much tradition involved with day to day operations. Good point about mutual aid practices as well. All to often dept's in this county bypass closer depts with similar equiptment and call someone MUCH further away.

[Steve 78]

Speaking as a FF from Rockland. I thing that we have a great system and something that Westchester should consider.

There are 26 departments in Rockland (alot smaller then Westchester). The dept's are placed in alphabetical order and numbered. Each chief is dept # 1, 2 or 3. ex. 17-1 for spring valley chief of dept. Then a pumper is numbered by it's GPM. So if spring valley has a 2000 GPM pumper that unit would be 17-2000, if they had two 2000 GPM pumpers the second one would be 17-2001. Truck company are 17-Tower or 17-Quint or 17-99 for a 100 foot ladder. rescue would be 17-Rescue and so on.

[27east 19]

Nassau County has an interesting system as well...It's something like the County Batt. #, the Department # and then the apparatus

[mfc2257 464]

Steve... I've done a ton of research on how counties number their rigs and both Putnam and Rockland have some good ideas at trying to convey as much info about a rig as possible throught it's identifier. However, if we look to the really large and successful combination career/volunteer counties (most of which are in the DC/Baltimore metro area like Prince Georges county etc....) They have tended to keep identifiers super brief at apparatus type followed by company number followed by apparatus number within that departmant.... E25-2 (said over the radio as "engine twenty five...two" or "engine twenty five dash two") The special call details of apparatus is kept in the CAD. If a chief needs a 2000gpm pumper he'll make a request to upgrade the box with the next available unit that meets that criteria and it's the dispatcher's job to find, dispatch the unit and inform the IC of his choice.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Rockland or Putnam identifiers, simply that there are some really big counties that run a ton more fire/ems than we do in the tri county area in other parts of the country and they've had a lot of success with the simple version of the system.

They have also put some really stringent rules on what criteria has to be met to get en engine / truck / rescue designation. That is for another post topic that I could go on forever about but I'll spare everyone. Blah blah blah...

[mllax14 18]

Well said, =D>

I wish Westchester County would adopt the numbering system used in Prince George County Maryland. It is just incredibly simple to use and remember.

More info could be found at

http://www.goprincegeorgescounty.com/Gover...p?h=20&s=60&n=0

Or http://www.firecompanies.com/companies.php under Maryland (Prince George County)

[Guest WolfEMT]

(Agency)-(Level)-(Unit)

If it's "Agency" - "Level" - "Unit," how come WEMS has 40-M-1 and 45-M-1? Shouldn't 45-M-1 have a 40 number?

[Pudge3311 5]

IMO I think that a simply renumbering would suit the county fine. Leave a little bit of room for growth or the addiditon of apparatus to departments. You will never satisfy everyone. I think that it will also get confusing using department numbers. If each rig is given a seperate number, with an engine, ladder, rescue, tanker designation, in front, then everyone shoule be happy. Why make big changes when small ones will be more than sufficiant?

[mfc2257 464]

Let me start this reply by letting everyone know that I'm not hyper critical of others opinions when I post long (borning for some I'm sure) posts like this. It's very difficult to understand tone via writen messages and sometimes it comes off aggressive and that isn't my intent.... That being said.

Pudge I agree with you that it may be confusing to some, at first at least. A simple shuffle of the deck to put engine numbers in line a little and leave room for expansion was what was done (basically) a few decades back when county numbers were assigned to apparatus in the first place... That has been outgrown.

My perception of the problem expands beyond a confusing system of numbers that are used now. My thoughts involve bringing Westchester County into the 21st century. When the root of the numbering system is based on each department having a unique number to base off of it extends into better CAD development with box areas being developed. If Millwood is company 25, then all the Millwood box areas in the cad will begin with the number 25. For example the area West of Rt 134 (Allapartus, Glendale, parts of Old Albany Post Road etc) might be Box Area 25-1. East of Rt 134 Box 25-2. Millwood Business district might be Box 25-3.

From here.... Dispatches stop sounding like "60 Controll to Millwood respond to 19 Allapartus Circle for a Structure Fire" and begin sounding like "60 control to company 25 respond to box area 25-1, at 19 Allapartus Road for a structure fire... the following units also alerted to fill the box, Battalion 12, Tanker 8 (Croton for example) Tanker 53 (Yorktown) Tanker 38 (Pocantico) Engine 33-1 (Ossining) and 5A1 (Briarcliff's ambulance).... I came up with all these hypothetical numbers by dropping the 2 from each of the current numbers that the county has assigned to our departments... (Millwood 225 is actually 25, Ossining 233 is actually 33, Croton 208 is actually 8 etc.

To move beyond box areas set up via numbers you get to the actual apparatus assignements for mutual aid for those box numbers. No more guessing who to call from the fire ground. The chiefs lay out alarm assigments from 1st through 4th alarm in each box. They choose the specific apparatus numbers from their mutual aid partners for each alarm. This way if Chief 25 requests his 2nd alarm assignment in box 25-3 and one of the engines on that assignement is O/O/S the county doesn't need to call him back and ask for his preferance... The county simply takes the first engine listed on the 3rd alarm for that box and moves it up to the second alarm assignment.

This probably sounds terribly complicated to many folks reading, but this is the way that the busiest counties base their CAD and department management. Once put in place it makes dispatching and fireground communications 100% easier than they are today in Westchester.

[x635 4,066]

(Agency)-(Level)-(Unit)

If it's "Agency" - "Level" - "Unit," how come WEMS has 40-M-1 and 45-M-1? Shouldn't 45-M-1 have a 40 number?

Two different systems.

40-X-X is Westchester EMS (Medical Transport/Private Emergency/Critical Care Transport) system

45-M-X is the Northern Westchester Paramedic system, a system that WEMS is contracted to provide. They are technically two different agencies.

Like Empress has 33-X-X, 32-A-1, 43-A,1

Transcare has 30-A-X, 31-X-X, etc etc

[Guest NYTruckie]

(Agency)-(Level)-(Unit)

If it's "Agency" - "Level" - "Unit," how come WEMS has 40-M-1 and 45-M-1? Shouldn't 45-M-1 have a 40 number?

Two different systems.

40-X-X is Westchester EMS (Medical Transport/Private Emergency/Critical Care Transport) system

45-M-X is the Northern Westchester Paramedic system, a system that WEMS is contracted to provide. They are technically two different agencies.

Like Empress has 33-X-X, 32-A-1, 43-A,1

Transcare has 30-A-X, 31-X-X, etc etc

First I'm not an expert but the paid services are given Numbers Empress 43, Westchester EMS 40, and then the Towns and or City's have there own numbers Mt. Vernon 33, Yonkers 32, Northern Westchester is basicly an ALS district 45medic 1-3 like Yorktown 34Medic1 & 2 and Briarclif/Croton Medic 36. This is what I figure looking at the list.

[Guest x901]

Empress numbering system is as follows

Yonkers

BLS= TAC (ex TAC 6)

ALS= Medic (ex Medic 32)

Mount Vernon

Ambulance (Ambulance 1, Ambulance 2)

Pelham

38A1

38M1

Yorktown

34M1

34M2

34M3

Empress transport units carry the designation of Ambulance (ex A19)

Pelham & Yorktown are dispatched by 60Control thus they use the county numbers. Mount Vernon is dispatched by MVPD. Yonkers is Disptached by Empress Central Communications and thus use their own numbers

[Guest WolfEMT]

Thanks, Seth...now I have a better understanding.

[SEC92 0]

635 I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE AMBULANCE DESIGNATIONS BEING PERFECT. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH EMERGENCY SERVICES FOR 32 YEARS AND DISPATCHING FOR 22 OF THOSE YEARS.

I CAN STILL RATTLE OFF THE OLD CALL SIGNS OF MILLWOOD AND OTHER DEPARTMENTS, BUT I COULDN'T TELL YOU WHICH AMBULANCE IS WHICH ANYMORE.

BEFORE THE CHANGE OVER IT WAS SIMPLE TO REMEMBER WHO WAS WHO. NOW 53B1 BLENDS IN WITH 55B1 AND 63B1 AND WHEN THE S HITS THE FAN I BET MOST PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA WHICH RIG IS WHICH.

THE ONLY ONE WHO NEEDS TO KNOW IF THE MEDIC IS ON BOARD IS THE DISPATCHER FOR THAT AREA. THE RIG IS GOING TO SAY ENROUTE ALS OR THE MEDIC WILL CALL BACK IN SERVICE WITH THE RIG GOING BLS.

KEEP IT SIMPLE

[maisela 0]

Northampton County in PA has a pretty efficient apparatus designation system. All Fire/EMS stations have a two digit code, after which the apparatus designation follows. E.g 2511 is Station 25's first due engine. The third digit designates the classification of the apparatus: 1=engine, 2=aerial, 3=tanker, 4=rescue, utilities and brush units, 5=chief and officer units, not sure about 6, 7 is for EMS officers, 8 is for ambulances and 9 designates fire police units. I run in Westchester too and although the designation system isn't very streamlined it's really not that problematic when calling for mutual aid.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hey all.

Up here in New Haven County, CT the numbering system for apparatus (fire and EMS) is up to the town or district. There are several numbering systems from station numbers first with the unit number second (or third in some cases) or continuous (Engine 1, Engine 2, rescue 3 Ladder 4 for example).

Where I used to work, C-MED New Haven, all EMS comms on MED 10 used a specific numbering system to talk to us. The System has three parts. The first number designates the type of unit:

1 = First Responder unit or one MRT or EMT in an ambulance acting as a first responder only.

2 = Transporting ambulance with two EMT's or an EMT and MRT

3 = Heavy Rescue unit (both fire and rescue corps units, not used as much today)

4 = IV Tech rsponding on ambulance or First Responder

5 = Paramedic on ambulance or in Medic Fly Car

10 = Medical Doctor

The Second part is a Phonic letter designation that tells what town or agency the unit is from. There is no specific way these were picked, here are some Examples

Alpha = New Haven Fire Department

Bravo = Ansonia Rescue Medical Service

Charlie = AMR

Delta = Hamden Fire Deparment

Echo = All West Haven Fire Districts

Kilo = Storm Ambulance Coprs of Derby

Papa = Hunters Ambulance

Zulu = Lower Naugatuck Valley Paramedic Service

The third number is the actual agency unit number.

So 2 Bravo 7 would be ambulance 7 from Ansonia with a EMT & MRT responding.

5 Alpha 1 would be New Haven Fire's Emergency Paramedic unit 1

There are 5 EMS regional agencies and each use a slightly different system but units on C-MED radios universally have a town designation to them (all of Connecticut's Towns have a tax ID number associated with them and are used by several police departments and CSP).

Joe