Orthodox Jewish women want to join Hatzolah EMS

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Jewish women want to join all-male EMTs

http://www.lohud.com...ext|Frontpage|s

NEW YORK — Most Orthodox Jewish women avoid touching men except direct relatives. They don't sit next to men on buses or even at weddings. They have separate swimming hours at indoor pools. But for an emergency birth, Orthodox Jewish women will usually turn to the all-male volunteer ambulance corps known as Hatzolah.

While Hatzolah has been discussed here to a great extent. I am curious to know if anyone has had any issues with religious/cultural differences regarding males treating females or females treating males and how you managed that situation?

Edited November 28, 2011 by jack10562
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[Guest mrengine9]

Wow! I think for this to work, since they are probably pretty strict in Hatzolah ambulance, the women will have to work with other women and respond to female only calls. I don't know but this is probably how they would do this if they accepted women at all. No I haven't run into any religious trouble regarding treating women....probably not yet.

[ny10570 745]

It happens from time to time. The biggest way around any hurdle is ensuring a relative is present and then just doing your job. Be sensitive to their concerns and just explain everything you are doing and why you are doing it. Its the same with every interaction with every other patient. I've gotten more grief for wearing my boots into a home than touching someone.

[Goose 188]

I recall one issue w/ a female who was an orthodox jew. She called regarding a lump she had found....her husband wasn't home at the time and i wasn't allowed into the house. I knew the neighborhood had a lot of orthodox families and had a general understanding of their beliefs. I let her know that i understood that we were not welcome to enter and asked her if she would prefer to have a female provider evaluate her....i ended up having a female medic and female police officer respond and she took the reigns from there.

That said, i've never had to overcome religions convictions when a patient was acutely ill....i always try to keep the husband or wife present, explain the assessment process, explain what that assessment has uncovered and the steps that need to be taken to treat the patient. In fact some of the patients i thought would be the most difficult - given their cultural and/or religious backgrounds - ended up being the easiest to treat and most thankful appreciative people.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Goose

[LTNRFD 266]

Many years ago I was working Nyack Hospital Medic 5. We were just clearing from a job at Nyack E.R. when in races a station wagon. The driver was screaming and it was hard to figure out what was happening. In the back seat was a female and she was screaming (insert heavy jewish accents on top of the screaming). It was quickly determined that the wife was pregnant and delivery was imminent. Having the cool head and knowing that the E.R. is only steps away, I called for a wheelchair and started to assist the female out of the car. At this point I was given a look by the female and she waved her hand at me as to say NO! She then pointed to between her legs and the baby's head was showing. Now my female partner was outside to see what was going on. She immediately push me aside and proceeded to deliver the baby at the door to the E.R. (within 10 feet of the door).

After, my partner who is also Jewish came to me apologizing for pushing me aside. It was obvious that this was an Orthodox Jewish female and my partner felt that it was best to avoid any male interaction with this patient. When everything settled down the husband came to me and thanked me for stepping aside and respecting their religious beliefs.

[JM15 386]

I respect whatever people believe in.. but what if there is an immediate life risk and lets say a female wasnt available?

[JackEMT 77]

I had a call where we were called to assist a Rabbi. We had a female crew member on the rig that evening and she was banned from entering room (maybe even the building, I don't remember at this point).

It ended up being an RMA.

[ny10570 745]

You accommodate as best you can. In LTNR's example, if his female partner hadn't been there I'm sure he would have been the one delivering once they realized the urgency. It all comes down to the best practical solution. If no female is present you make do by keeping contact to a minimum and be extremely clear what you are doing and why. Do you really need to touch her skin to check it's condition our can you ask the husband if she feels warm or cold to him? Can you get a BP over the short our do you really need to roll that sleeve up. Just making the effort to accommodate their beliefs goes a long way towards making it work.

[WAS967 97]

I respect whatever people believe in.. but what if there is an immediate life risk and lets say a female wasnt available?

I believe the preservation of human life comes above all else in their eyes. It's the same with Muslim law. Take for example the use of porcine insulin. Being from a pig you'd think this would violate kosher tenants left and right. But if it's the only insulin available and the patient would die without it, it is my understanding that it be used. (And after further reading, not only SHOULD it be used but it MUST be used). Google for more info. But good stuff to know.

But it sounds like in a nutshell that if a life is in jeopardy, then all other jewish laws (save a few like murder) are right out the window.

[FFEMT150 214]

This is a perfect example of ethics in EMS. I have always felt strongly that you should respect the religious and cultural beliefs of others but preservation of life always comes first.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Jewish women want to join all-male EMTs

http://www.lohud.com...ext|Frontpage|s

While Hatzolah has been discussed here to a great extent. I am curious to know if anyone has had any issues with religious/cultural differences regarding males treating females or females treating males and how you managed that situation?

Had an instance a few years ago at a Yashiva in my district where a young teenager injured his ankle fairly well. One of the adults of some authority there through conversation with the polite young man says "you're going to take him to the hospital?" So looking at him with a..well why else would you call us look...he says..."so you take him to good hospital yes...New York City has excellent hospitals yes.." So I smiled and said yes..NYC has several wonderful hospitals...but he'll be going to a good hospital here. Then comes the attitude..well we want him taken to NYC being he is from Brooklyn...well...that's nice...he can return to Brooklyn when he's discharged here we don't transport to Mt. Kisco lone less NYC..but you're more then welcome to sign a refusal for him and you can drive him. He finally relented.

So then as he's being loaded into the ambulance and take note where this Yashiva is..or was, I'm not sure if they still are in operation after the numerous code violations there that were found...the adult then says...is there a male doctor and nurses there..he is not to be touched by a woman...and it just so happened that both the ED doc on duty was a woman and there wasn't a single male nurse on shift that day. Needless to say I told him that they're going to have to get over it..and I'm sure in the name of a child's well being that there has to be some sort of understanding from the man upstairs. Homie didn't like it...but he sure didn't want to drive him anywhere else.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I believe the preservation of human life comes above all else in their eyes. It's the same with Muslim law. Take for example the use of porcine insulin. Being from a pig you'd think this would violate kosher tenants left and right. But if it's the only insulin available and the patient would die without it, it is my understanding that it be used. (And after further reading, not only SHOULD it be used but it MUST be used). Google for more info. But good stuff to know.

But it sounds like in a nutshell that if a life is in jeopardy, then all other jewish laws (save a few like murder) are right out the window.

Actually if I remember correctly they have the right to refuse if they firmly believe it will violate their religious beliefs. No different then Jehovah's witnesses that I have seen flat out refuse any blood products even after being explained that it was completely necessary to save the life of a patient I brought in with an obvious severe upper GI bleed. The patient stated his wishes..the family affirmed those and stayed with it and the patient expired approximately an hour later.

[ny10570 745]

Anyone has the right to refuse. I'm sure there is a sect if every group that gives religious beliefs supremacy over life. However the major Christian, Muslim, and Jewish groups have always allowed exceptions in life or death emergencies.

[chovesh 1]

Normative Jewish law dictates that In a life or death situation almost all rules are off. Many people get very caught up on not touching and forget about that energencies override that. In the end of the day you just have to be respectful and understanding just like on any other call. Explain what you are doing and why and most of the time there won't be a problem. Having worked in tel aviv in some of the most religious neighborhoods in Israel I have never been given a problem about touching women. It is important to keep them covered (don't carry them out with their bodies exposed) bc it'll make them uncomfortable and be cognizant of the fact that while with most of your patients a soft touch on the arm is comforting for some this may be very uncomfortable.

If you respect them they'll respect you and you'll find they are not as different from you as you may imagine.

Edited March 4, 2012 by chovesh