Higher Taxes: Higher Expectations

[x635 4,066]

Do taxpayers who pay relatively high taxes for Fire, Police, and/or EMS expect more? Do they deserve more? Do they know if they are going to get their money's worth if the time comes when they need it?

Is it our responsiblity to educate them about what (and who) they are getting for the money, in good times, or only in bad times?

[Dinosaur 844]

Do taxpayers who pay relatively high taxes for Fire, Police, and/or EMS expect more? Do they deserve more? Do they know if they are going to get their money's worth if the time comes when they need it?

Is it our responsiblity to educate them about what (and who) they are getting for the money, in good times, or only in bad times?

Taxpayers have expectations regardless of how much they pay in taxes. Sure those paying through the nose may have higher expectations but the bottom line is they all expect some response.

It is our responsibility to support minimum standards, response times, training standards, cost-efficiencies, and proactive responses to all kinds of situations. The fact that we still have two different standards for FF, no response time requirements, and EMS services that can't get out the door speaks volumes about how we fail to meet our responsibility and condone this pathetic excuse for a "system".

[Bnechis 3,961]

Do they know if they are going to get their money's worth if the time comes when they need it?

Can you imagine what would happen if the State Comptroller Mandated an annual FD report as part of your required budget. Make it available on the Comptrollers, your depts. (if applicable) and your town (city, village) web sites.

Required info:

Budget breakdown

Number of career ff's and training received during the year (if any)

Number of volunteer ff's and training received during the year (if any)

Minimum career on duty staffing: per shift & per apparatus (if any)

Minimum response of career personnel to reported fire (if any)

Minimum response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

Average response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

Maximum response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

If above 3 vary more than 10%, list time of day/day of week

Number/type of apparatus.

Condition of apparatus, equipment, stations, etc.

Other services provided.

Mutual aid given & received

Injury summary

ISO rating

Even if the community does not react, maybe....just maybe if departments measure their performance, they might try to improve it. Or maybe the politicians will just be embarrassed enough to fund us to the level needed to fix it.

[FFEMT150 214]

Can you imagine what would happen if the State Comptroller Mandated an annual FD report as part of your required budget. Make it available on the Comptrollers, your depts. (if applicable) and your town (city, village) web sites.

Required info:

Budget breakdown

Number of career ff's and training received during the year (if any)

Number of volunteer ff's and training received during the year (if any)

Minimum career on duty staffing: per shift & per apparatus (if any)

Minimum response of career personnel to reported fire (if any)

Minimum response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

Average response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

Maximum response of volunteer personnel to reported fire (if any)

If above 3 vary more than 10%, list time of day/day of week

Number/type of apparatus.

Condition of apparatus, equipment, stations, etc.

Other services provided.

Mutual aid given & received

Injury summary

ISO rating

Even if the community does not react, maybe....just maybe if departments measure their performance, they might try to improve it. Or maybe the politicians will just be embarrassed enough to fund us to the level needed to fix it.

Very good point. I think we should all take a long look in the mirror every now and then. There is always room for improvement in the fire service and those who say they are perfect are usually the worst offender.

To answer seths question, I really don't think they know what they expect. There have been plenty of times I have gone on an ems run and the patient and family didn't even know their taxes pay for the medic. Do they deserve more? No. All the people we serve should be getting the same top notch professional service no matter who serves them, where they are or how much they pay.

I am a firm believer that if you show the public what their money pays for they complain less about spending it. For arguement sake, lets say your local department just spent $5000.00 on a new saw blade. Seems to be a bit much? Now lets say this blade is a long life, self sharpening blade that can get through the metal of a car in a 1/4 of the time shortening the amount of time needed for an extrication. Seems like it was worth it right?

Maybe a poor example but I think you guys can see where I am going here.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Taxpayers have expectations regardless of how much they pay in taxes. Sure those paying through the nose may have higher expectations but the bottom line is they all expect some response.

It is our responsibility to support minimum standards, response times, training standards, cost-efficiencies, and proactive responses to all kinds of situations. The fact that we still have two different standards for FF, no response time requirements, and EMS services that can't get out the door speaks volumes about how we fail to meet our responsibility and condone this pathetic excuse for a "system".

Taxpayers don't know the first thing about their emergency services particularly fire and ems until they need them and then even with good service they often feel it took too long. Police is a little different as they seem them patrolling etc. But most think they know how to do their jobs better as well. I've seen the gambit on those who got a 3 min. response time and they thought it was too long..to waiting 30+ mins for an ambulance and say nothing. So go figure.

And as far as those paying high taxes...most right now are accepting reductions in emergency services to offset tax increases or even to gain tax reductions.

[SOUSGT 357]

Taxpayers don't know the first thing about their emergency services particularly fire and ems until they need them and then even with good service they often feel it took too long. Police is a little different as they seem them patrolling etc. But most think they know how to do their jobs better as well. I've seen the gambit on those who got a 3 min. response time and they thought it was too long..to waiting 30+ mins for an ambulance and say nothing. So go figure.

And as far as those paying high taxes...most right now are accepting reductions in emergency services to offset tax increases or even to gain tax reductions.

For the most part the public seems to be more concerned with garbage pickup then emergency services. I remember over the years, there were several instances were a municipality had to cut services due to budget shortfalls. There were two proposals, one was to reduce DPW. This would require the elimination of backyard garbage pickups and the leaves would be on the street longer. The second scheme was to reduce the police and fire staffing. There were more letters and complaints about the proposed changes to the garbage pickup schedule.

Think about this, how many times is a fire alarm delayed because the owner provided the wrong information to their alarm company and the central station called the wrong fire department? Many people don’t even know the municipality that they live in. If 911 did not automaticlly route the call to the right PSAP, the problem would be more accute and we would be having a tread about "Why don't homeowners know who to call".

Second example:

How many CO alarms have been dispatched because the homeowner did not read the manual and can’t tell the difference between a low battery and an alarm? Now the box is beeping and what doe I do? Then, when you arrive, the family is inside watching TV with the windows closed and the heat or AC on? You would think that one would have double checked material that could save your life, but this seems that often this is not to be the case.

[rayrider 94]

When I lived in yonkers my taxes were $8000,00. year. Four engines, two trucks and a heavy rescue all within approx 8 min response time fully staffed. Paying twice the amount now in taxes for same house value. Now Iam lucky if a single rig shows up in 15 minutes on some occasions.

[LTNRFD 266]

When I lived in yonkers my taxes were $8000,00. year. Four engines, two trucks and a heavy rescue all within approx 8 min response time fully staffed. Paying twice the amount now in taxes for same house value. Now Iam lucky if a single rig shows up in 15 minutes on some occasions.

Why did you accept the reduction in fire service? Didn't you know what the services were at your new house or were you just looking for peace and quite and good schools?

[JackEMT 77]

I think at a certain point, people expect "value" for what they pay. When I lived in the city, I was paying less than $2,000 in property taxes, did I expect less in services? Not at all. Now that I live in the 'burbs and pay 4x times that in taxes, do I expect 4 times the services, not really. But I should be holding the public/elected officials to spending the tax renenue wisely.

I am not sure if the responsibility should be on the FD/EMS agencies to "educate" the public on how the budget is spent, but they should be able to answer to the inquiry.

[firepunk 3]

Many tax payers do not care if it is 5 ffs or 1 ff on the truck that shows up so the these so called political people take the chance as long as the truck shows up tax payers are happy. They do not know the difference on what is proper staffing or not proper staffing. They just want the shiny trucks in front

The problem is that the politicians take a gamble on tax payer safety and no one is able to police them. They run rampant and do what they want to do nothing is going to change that until the state steps in and regulates the fire Service across the board and we all know that will not happen either

Fire related deaths happen everyday and everyday there is finger pointing and still nothing happens and it never will.

Sorry for ranting

[x635 4,066]

Many tax payers do not care if it is 5 ffs or 1 ff on the truck that shows up so the these so called political people take the chance as long as the truck shows up tax payers are happy. They do not know the difference on what is proper staffing or not proper staffing.

Fire related deaths happen everyday and everyday there is finger pointing and still nothing happens and it never will.

But, shouldn't it be our job to educate them proactively, so when the time comes for cuts, the citizens know the value of what is being cut, and understand how the cuts will affect them from that previous initative? Or, do we wait for stuff to happen, and have a reactive response?

Having the "Nothing happens and nothing will" is a very, very poor attitude to have. The problem isn't the finger pointing, it's the lack of people wanting to take initiative. And the whole "people having to die" to get FD attention to fix issues may be a very popular misconception, but that one person is a fellow human being and someone's loved one. God forbid, put yourself in their shoes and wonder why something didn't happen. And for others, ask YOURSELF what you could have done? Explain to the family why you knew about a problem but didn't do anything about it because of so-and-so and this or that.

[firepunk 3]

Seth. I'm on your side trust me. I do not want to see someone die. My attitude is no different than everybody else. I want more manning and trust me my job needs it as what jobs are losing is what we run and sometimes less. We can only educate so much and turn blue in the face but what people see is dollar signs and the elected officials doing what's right and that's only in the tax payer eye and not the fire fighters cops diapatcher or dpw eyes. We have tried to educate to the best we can but nothing happens. That is what I was trying to say. And Seth I do pay my fair share in taxes and I expect full.service for the money I pay. What people also do not see is that 75% of the tax bill is school. Most people pay taxes through their mortgage and do not know what is spent on what. When push comes to shove fire police and dpw are pennies to add or keep the staffing. People pay more for coffee everyday at Dunkin donuts than they do in fire tax. Figure this. A cup of coffee is $2.00 a day on average that is $730 a year for a cup of Joe my fire tax is only $20 more per year and I get 6 guys on the initial call and then another 10-12 for a job which complies with 1710 this is before any mutual aid. Ask yourself this how much is your kids cell phone with the data plan its got to be $60 at a minimum that's another $720 a year. So for coffee and your kids luxury of texting that's $1450. Imagine the fire service you can get for that.

Edited November 29, 2011 by firepunk

[Bnechis 3,961]

Seth, I agree you need to be proactive, but we are trully shovelling Sh*t against the tide.

In the last election, we only got about 6,000 voters out of 80,000 residence (45,000 registered voaters). This kind of turnout sends a clear message to the politicians......we do not care what you decide.

We are regularly questioned as to why New Rochelle FD/PD/DPW comes to homes in Scarsdale and these people will not accept that even thought they pay taxes to NR they must live in Scarsdale because the real estate agent told them it was in Scarsdale (and that will cost you an extra $60,000). Love when you ask what school the kids go to...and its a NR school....I cant figure out why?

People are so caught up in their own little world and if they are not dialling 911, then they cant figure out why they should pay for it.

[gamewell45 258]

For the most part the public seems to be more concerned with garbage pickup then emergency services. I remember over the years, there were several instances were a municipality had to cut services due to budget shortfalls. There were two proposals, one was to reduce DPW. This would require the elimination of backyard garbage pickups and the leaves would be on the street longer. The second scheme was to reduce the police and fire staffing. There were more letters and complaints about the proposed changes to the garbage pickup schedule.

You are correct. The public in general is almost never concerned about emergency services until they need them; at that point it becomes an extreme priority and that's when the finger pointing begins. Just like the public vilifies Attorney's until they need one, then suddenly Attorney's are the great savior; it all depends on the need at the time.

[firepunk 3]

What kills me is that we all pay for car insurance and homeowners insurance weather we need it or not but we won't pay for is emergency services. It does not add up. That is why we pay taxes to insure the public from harm and protect property. That is the way it needs to be sold to the public

[Bnechis 3,961]

What kills me is that we all pay for car insurance and homeowners insurance weather we need it or not but we won't pay for is emergency services. It does not add up. That is why we pay taxes to insure the public from harm and protect property. That is the way it needs to be sold to the public

We pay for car insurance because you can not register your car with out it.

We pay for homeowners insurance because you can not get a morgage with out it.

Lots of people would spin the wheel and take a chance on both if they did not have to pay.

We are that homeowners policy and if you support your local FD, you can reduce what the insurance co. will charge you for the same coverage, because they reduce their risk.

We have not sold that message.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

When I lived in yonkers my taxes were $8000,00. year. Four engines, two trucks and a heavy rescue all within approx 8 min response time fully staffed. Paying twice the amount now in taxes for same house value. Now Iam lucky if a single rig shows up in 15 minutes on some occasions.

move back to Yonkers.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

When I lived in yonkers my taxes were $8000,00. year. Four engines, two trucks and a heavy rescue all within approx 8 min response time fully staffed. Paying twice the amount now in taxes for same house value. Now Iam lucky if a single rig shows up in 15 minutes on some occasions.

Are these values total or just for Fire/EMS/PD?

I am willing to bet that your increased taxes are more due to your local school district than your local VFD squandering your tax dollars. I am willing to bet you are more comfortable with the quality of the education your kid is getting at a suburban high school than the one they would have gotten back in Yonkers.

[firepunk 3]

We pay for car insurance because you can not register your car with out it.

We pay for homeowners insurance because you can not get a morgage with out it.

Lots of people would spin the wheel and take a chance on both if they did not have to pay.

We are that homeowners policy and if you support your local FD, you can reduce what the insurance co. will charge you for the same coverage, because they reduce their risk.

We have not sold that message.

Capt

I know you are a firm believer with the ISO and you and the consalidation study group stated a savings of 4 million dollars. That's well and good overall. What would it be for individuals. Would it outway the hikes if ISO went down in rating? Is that the way to sell it then or is this consolidation thing dead

[Guest alsfirefighter]

For the most part the public seems to be more concerned with garbage pickup then emergency services. I remember over the years, there were several instances were a municipality had to cut services due to budget shortfalls. There were two proposals, one was to reduce DPW. This would require the elimination of backyard garbage pickups and the leaves would be on the street longer. The second scheme was to reduce the police and fire staffing. There were more letters and complaints about the proposed changes to the garbage pickup schedule.

Think about this, how many times is a fire alarm delayed because the owner provided the wrong information to their alarm company and the central station called the wrong fire department? Many people don’t even know the municipality that they live in. If 911 did not automaticlly route the call to the right PSAP, the problem would be more accute and we would be having a tread about "Why don't homeowners know who to call".

Second example:

How many CO alarms have been dispatched because the homeowner did not read the manual and can’t tell the difference between a low battery and an alarm? Now the box is beeping and what doe I do? Then, when you arrive, the family is inside watching TV with the windows closed and the heat or AC on? You would think that one would have double checked material that could save your life, but this seems that often this is not to be the case.

I'm with you on that brother. I work in a place where there are more people on a garbage truck then a fire truck.

[Danger 160]

move back to Yonkers.

Yeah that's genius.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know you are a firm believer with the ISO and you and the consalidation study group stated a savings of 4 million dollars. That's well and good overall. What would it be for individuals. Would it outway the hikes if ISO went down in rating? Is that the way to sell it then or is this consolidation thing dead

Individual savings would vary, particularly since different depts.. currently have different ratings. But the savings are definitely greater than the costs. The best comparison is not the savings from improving......2 years ago I looked at the average tax bill in NR and calculated how much of that goes to the FD it was $435/yr. If we got rid of the FD and gave back the $435 to the taxpayers their insurance premium would go up by at least $1,200. So just be existing (at the level we are) we save every property owner 3x what we cost. And that without even responding to 1 call.

Consolidation is not happening, but I would not say its dead. We are facing cuts, others are also facing cuts. Currently there is no political will to proceed, the general attitude is we would rather all sink as separate depts., than try to find a lasting solution. It’s clear that the politicians, the chiefs, the unions and the volunteers are hoping that some miracle will occur and will save us forever, once they realize that our situation will be the new norm for the foreseeable future, then maybe they will realize we must change or we will be gone.

[antiquefirelt 994]

It would be great if insurance companies were more involved in educating the public about reducing fire risk and how that benefit reduces the cost of premiums. While they'd lose some money up front in places that took advantage of strengthening the fire departments responses, they'd save money in fire loss payouts. Maybe in the form of helping municipalities hire consultants to study the true costs of bolstering fire protection?

It amazes me to see the amount of information out there if one knows how to obtain it, as Capt. Nechis does, while so many of us are still only scratching the surface of knowing how to show bettering our ISO ratings can reduce individuals out of pocket expenses (taxes and/or fire insurance).

This would also be a great avenue for the IAFF and the I Chief's to consider spending time and money on. With members losing jobs everywhere, we're still doing very little to show that it actually has a negative financial impact on the community as a whole.