NYS Annual Firefighter Required Training

[SteveOFD 176]

Recently I was provided with information from NYS PESH (Public Employee Safety & Health) regarding the required annual training requirements for New York State Firefighters.

The following is a portion of an e-mail I received from a PESH representative. With his permission I am forwarding the full e-mail with only his position, name, and location deleted.

...I was asked to respond to your question regarding required training for volunteer firefighters. Let me preface this answer by saying that PESH does not differentiate between volunteers and career firefighters; both are considered employees under State law. As for specific trainings, that would depend on the duties assigned to the individual firefighter. For instance, an interior firefighter (class A) would be required to have respirator training for the use of SCBAs, but an exterior firefighter (class B or C)would not. Attached is a chart designed by PESH which indicates the various required trainings for all occupations. All things being equal, a typical interior firefighter would need at least the following trainings:

Annual Hazard Communication / Right to Know (chemicals in the workplace)

Annual Respiratory Protection training(for SCBAs)

Quarterly Fire Brigade training (on any topic related to firefighting)

Annual HazMat Operations training (for basic interior / exterior firefighters who would assist at a HazMat scene)

Annual Workplace Violence Prevention training

Escape ropes / systems training (if entering fire structures that are above ground level)

PPE training on how and when to wear personal protective equipment (bunker gear, safety glasses, hearing protection, etc.)

Other trainings may be required depending on the various tasks they may be required to perform, such as confined space rescue, emergency vehicle operations, etc.

If anyone has any questions beyond what is in the above, PM me and I will provide contact information.

[FFEMT150 214]

Recently I was provided with information from NYS PESH (Public Employee Safety & Health) regarding the required annual training requirements for New York State Firefighters.

The following is a portion of an e-mail I received from a PESH representative. With his permission I am forwarding the full e-mail with only his position, name, and location deleted.

If anyone has any questions beyond what is in the above, PM me and I will provide contact information.

Looks like most of this is covered by OSHA training no? Good info though. If you wouldn;t mind can you PM me a link where I can find this info?

[conman 40]

Pm me to please

[tonyc856 16]

Few things more .... Haz-mat is at the operation level. Also you need bloodborne pathogens and T.B. Training.

Nothing in the rules said this can not be done in your annual 8 Hour training.

On the same note: your 8 hour training can be done during the course of the year, just have to remember if you are doing it that way you need to do really good paperwork.

[Bnechis 3,961]

>>"...I was asked to respond to your question regarding required training for volunteer firefighters. Let me preface this answer by saying that PESH does not differentiate between volunteers and career firefighters; both are considered employees under State law." <<

While PESH does not differentiate between career and volunteer, NYS Law does. NYCRR Part 426 (Minimum Standards for Firefighting Personnel) requires the following:

§ 426.1 Purpose.

The purpose of this Part is to establish uniform minimum State training standards designed to increase competency and reliability of fire service personnel; improve and expand the professional training available to paid fire service personnel by developing uniform minimum standards for basic, in-service, advanced in-service and promotional supervisory training programs, with emphasis on proper subject content and better instruction;

§426.7 In-service fire training.

(a) Permanently appointed firefighters and fire officers normally assigned to command company operations at emergencies shall annually receive a minimum of 100 contact hours of in- service training in the following subject areas:

The 100 hours technically does not acknowledge the "8 hour" OSHA/PESH requirements, but can easily accomidate it under the required subject matter.

Each career firefighter/officers training must be documented and submitted to NYS annually.

I have seen a number of complaints from the volunteer firefighters that they are no allowed to have MTO (municipal training officers). MTO's are mandated by NYCRR Part 427 to facilitate NYCRR Part 426. So until Part 426 requires all firefighters in NYS to have 100 hours of annual inservice (plus the initial and officer training) MTO's will not be allowed.

The NYSPFF fought very hard over 35 years ago to creat this legislation. FASNY fought very hard against it and the result is the above legislation and a divided fire service.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Bnechis

[nysff 18]

Here is a link to the OFPC website and the MTO/In-Service training requirements.

OFPC MTO Link

Edited November 27, 2011 by nysff

[Dinosaur 844]

So career FF in NY have to complete 100 hours of training.

What about the volunteers? Is it really just 8 hours of OHSA training per year?

[ex-commish 490]

>>"

I have seen a number of complaints from the volunteer firefighters that they are no allowed to have MTO (municipal training officers). MTO's are mandated by NYCRR Part 427 to facilitate NYCRR Part 426. So until Part 426 requires all firefighters in NYS to have 100 hours of annual inservice (plus the initial and officer training) MTO's will not be allowed.

Barry while I understand why the law is written the way it is I don't feel it should preclude volunteer departments from appointing a qualified MTO' if a department wishes to step up thier training. If anything you would have someone with the criteria to conduct the training.

On another note maybe if FASNY spent more time and effort lobbying to change that law as I requested to them years ago than fighting the cops having blue lights on the back of thier cars we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So career FF in NY have to complete 100 hours of training.

What about the volunteers? Is it really just 8 hours of OHSA training per year?

Yes

100 hours minimum for career

8 hours minimum for volunteers

And this is the main reason for the volunteer vs. career debates that crop up here.

Note: Before this turns into another war, we all know those numbers are minimums and many firefighters have much more than that.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry while I understand why the law is written the way it is I don't feel it should preclude volunteer departments from appointing a qualified MTO' if a department wishes to step up thier training. If anything you would have someone with the criteria to conduct the training.

I agree, maybe FASNY should re-examine there anti-training position and lobby for better training.

On another note maybe if FASNY spent more time and effort lobbying to change that law as I requested to them years ago than fighting the cops having blue lights on the back of thier cars we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Agreed. FASNY needs to work in the 21st century. It will take an infusion of new blood into the organization.

They were thrilled that they got backward hazmat billing legislation passed, luckily the GOV. was persuaded that it would hurt most fire depts and hazmat teams in the state. The best statement was they should work on legislation that benefits the fire service in general and not just the volunteers i.e. the legislation on blue lights that they proposed was for rear facing blue lights on volunteer fire trucks, the legislation was then changed to include all fire trucks.

[16fire5 693]

Yes

100 hours minimum for career

8 hours minimum for volunteers

And this is the main reason for the volunteer vs. career debates that crop up here.

Note: Before this turns into another war, we all know those numbers are minimums and many firefighters have much more than that.

Would you agree that you really can't meet the requirements when you include the Hazmat, BBP, Violence Prevention in 8 hours. I think department's should spend more time making this training realistic and worthwile as opposed to getting it done in 8 hours. Also that is the bare minimum if you do other basic services such as auto extrication, and ice rescue they need be trained on.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Would you agree that you really can't meet the requirements when you include the Hazmat, BBP, Violence Prevention in 8 hours. I think department's should spend more time making this training realistic and worthwile as opposed to getting it done in 8 hours. Also that is the bare minimum if you do other basic services such as auto extrication, and ice rescue they need be trained on.

There is no way you can meet the training in the required hours, but the same holds true for FF1. Hazmat OPS is a stand alone 15 hours course, that in FF1 they allot 6-9 hours to cover.

The sad part is I know depts where members are not meeting the 8 hour requirement and they will not take that person off the line, to justify themselves they state they are short handed and need every available member.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Each career firefighter/officers training must be documented and submitted to NYS annually.

And when its not then what? Part of the problem is there is no teeth behind the law, particularly when you have an issue with your municipality not doing what they should to ensure the delivery of the training.

[v85 212]

I always thought the 8 hours was just Right to Know, BBP, and violence prevention. At least that is how my department does it. They also hold OSHA drills every so often to cover the rest of the topics.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And when its not then what? Part of the problem is there is no teeth behind the law, particularly when you have an issue with your municipality not doing what they should to ensure the delivery of the training.

Great question.

This is unfortunate, but it does happen, particularly in smaller depts. often those without a career chief.

Basicly, the union must make this an issue. It is critical that they legally document this with the AHJ, showing that this is a failure on the dept. and not a failure of the members to comply.

At that point, the AHJ has major liability, for any member injured and for any civilian injury and even for property loss. They may not care, but, they need to publicly know about it.

Often, local unions do not make a big enough deal about this. They need to.

[Remember585 815]

And when its not then what? Part of the problem is there is no teeth behind the law, particularly when you have an issue with your municipality not doing what they should to ensure the delivery of the training.

And this is why I get my panties in a bunch all the time. Guys come on here, pounding on their chests, that they're better trained because they are career firefighters - but we all know that some places aren't meeting their minimal requirements. (I am NOT speaking specifically about any one department, so please don't slash my tires guys! )

We ALL have room for improvement, we just need to put the paid vs. volunteer BS aside and make those "looking out for us" (see: FASNY, etc.) come together and develop a realistic training requirement for both sides and give departments the abilities to meet these requirements (IE: MTOs for paid AND volunteer).

Our Department, as far as I can tell and based on what I hear, is pushing more training than most others around us. It would be so much nicer if all the time many of us took to become FSI I or II could give our guys OFPC programs that we lack in Westchester. We have close to a dozen members that are FSI I or II basically being under-utilized.

We all know improvements need to be made, but we're all hitting that glass ceiling created by the state, due to narrow-minded and tradition-bound organizations that have made it impossible for all of us to be better.

The desire (by most) is there, it's just a shame a lot of us speak up and find our concerns falling on deaf ears.

[Remember585 815]

I always thought the 8 hours was just Right to Know, BBP, and violence prevention. At least that is how my department does it. They also hold OSHA drills every so often to cover the rest of the topics.

From what I always was told, the annual eight hours consisted of one hour of each of the following:

General Hazard Recognition

Station Safety

Response Safety

Scene Safety

PPE

SCBA

Tools & Equipment

New Developments

And in your first year, you have to complete 15 hours in the above categories (minus the new developments) with more time dedicated to PPE, SCBA, Tools & Equipment and I think GHR.

AND, lastly, I am also under the impression that Firefighter I covers all of this.

Anyone that knows better, please feel free to correct me.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

And this is why I get my panties in a bunch all the time. Guys come on here, pounding on their chests, that they're better trained because they are career firefighters - but we all know that some places aren't meeting their minimal requirements. (I am NOT speaking specifically about any one department, so please don't slash my tires guys! )

We ALL have room for improvement, we just need to put the paid vs. volunteer BS aside and make those "looking out for us" (see: FASNY, etc.) come together and develop a realistic training requirement for both sides and give departments the abilities to meet these requirements (IE: MTOs for paid AND volunteer).

Our Department, as far as I can tell and based on what I hear, is pushing more training than most others around us. It would be so much nicer if all the time many of us took to become FSI I or II could give our guys OFPC programs that we lack in Westchester. We have close to a dozen members that are FSI I or II basically being under-utilized.

We all know improvements need to be made, but we're all hitting that glass ceiling created by the state, due to narrow-minded and tradition-bound organizations that have made it impossible for all of us to be better.

The desire (by most) is there, it's just a shame a lot of us speak up and find our concerns falling on deaf ears.

We've been friends for a long time brother. You've never heard much different out of my mouth. But I can tell you...its often the other side of the fence that cries about my side of the fence on a more regular basis.

With all due respect in regard to who is looking out for us...FASNY does more to make me shake my head with their stances and lobbying with training proposals and issues then I've ever had anything I've seen that's made sense. However I can tell you that the IAFF has lobbied and done a bunch that benefits both sides even if they push for more career staffing and implementation of such in some areas.

As far as the FS1 and FS 2 being under utilized...I can make specific comments to that...but they also will need to dedicate themselves to getting to the instructors conference. If you think things are lacking in Westchester..you should see the other counties...we are top 3 every year in overall training courses delivered and have led the state in FF 1's for the past several years. Most instructors I teach at the instructors conference can't believe our volume that we deliver. I understand its tough when you have people that want and need stuff. But..having an MTO isn't the absolute answer either..and you can have a self appointed MTO which you basically are...drills are the most important thing an MTO establishes through a comprehensive training program. State courses are second...I have other opinions based on experience with department delivered courses...but that's for another time and thread.

Barry...liability is fine. But its not something that is tangible for most municipalities. Sadly enough.

[Remember585 815]

With all due respect in regard to who is looking out for us...FASNY does more to make me shake my head with their stances and lobbying with training proposals and issues then I've ever had anything I've seen that's made sense. However I can tell you that the IAFF has lobbied and done a bunch that benefits both sides even if they push for more career staffing and implementation of such in some areas.

I've always been more accepting of the recommendations of the IAFC vs. FASNY or even the NVFC.

As far as the FS1 and FS 2 being under utilized...I can make specific comments to that...but they also will need to dedicate themselves to getting to the instructors conference. If you think things are lacking in Westchester..you should see the other counties...we are top 3 every year in overall training courses delivered and have led the state in FF 1's for the past several years. Most instructors I teach at the instructors conference can't believe our volume that we deliver. I understand its tough when you have people that want and need stuff. But..having an MTO isn't the absolute answer either..and you can have a self appointed MTO which you basically are...drills are the most important thing an MTO establishes through a comprehensive training program. State courses are second...I have other opinions based on experience with department delivered courses...but that's for another time and thread.

I appreciate the gratitude. I know that I have a few guys in our department that are qualified to deliver OFPC training, but aren't allowed to anymore. I would love to be able to instruct some of this stuff, since we've been doing our best to be as flexible as possible to deliver the most we can FOR NO COST to our guys. Thankfully those that want something bad enough still make trips to Valhalla, Katonah and Mamaroneck. Losing our FD as a sattelite facility was a blow to all of us, but I understand where the county was coming from. Besides physically going to certain firehouses around us and dragging people to classes, WCDES has made a strong effort to offer as much as possible.

Now that budgets are getting trimmed every year, I can't keep paying outside help for stuff I know we could do ourselves, and it sucks.

[xchief2x 79]

The instructor's conference is invitation only and the guest list is limited to SFI'S, CFI'S and MTO's recognized by OFPC.

[tonyc856 16]

As some of you know, I work full time as a safety professional. So I deal with this subject all the time.

What seems to confuse everyone there is a difference between firematic training and required safety training.

The annual safety training is as follows and I will tell you who requires it:

Annual Hazard Communication / Right to Know (chemicals in the workplace) (Haz-Com is OSHA/PESH Right to Know NY State Dept of Health)

Annual Respiratory Protection training(for SCBAs) (OSHA/PESH)

Quarterly Fire Brigade training (on any topic related to firefighting) (This is where the 100/8 hr part comes in; those numbers came from PESH)

Annual HazMat Operations training (for basic interior / exterior firefighters who would assist at a HazMat scene) (OSHA/PESH … remember this is at the operation level and incident commanders MUST be at the Haz-Mat incident commander level. Having incident command is not Haz-mat incident command.

Annual Workplace Violence Prevention training (OSHA/PESH)

Escape ropes / systems training (if entering fire structures that are above ground level) (PESH)

PPE training on how and when to wear personal protective equipment (bunker gear, safety glasses, hearing protection, etc.) (OSHA/PESH)

Bloodborne Pathogens (OSHA/PESH)

T.B. (PESH)

Now the 100/8 hr annual training was never meant to be a class taken at once. That is the annual training under the fire brigade standard, which includes all types of training. So when you really think about it, no matter if you are career or volunteer even 100 hours is not going to cut it.

Now let's talk safety refresher training. OSHA/PESH for most of the requirements state that refresher training is either classroom time or that you can show competency.

Competency means you can give a test or do some sort of drill, documenting that everyone knew what to do. Either way it is a paperwork nightmare. Now the 8 hour "safety training". As I said before that 8 hour class came out of the fire brigade standard, as an annual training requirement for volunteers.

This class as described below:

General Hazard Recognition

Station Safety

Response Safety

Scene Safety

PPE

SCBA

Tools & Equipment

New Developments

Came from the NY State Fire Chiefs Association from a class they provide to help the volunteers meet the 8 hour and the annual safety (refresher) training requirements. As I said before the 100/8 hour was never meant to be a one class thing. However, this format, if you can get in all the required annual safety training will work. Best part is that the paperwork is easy to come up with. You just need to make sure you cover everything.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

[nysff 18]

And this is why I get my panties in a bunch all the time. Guys come on here, pounding on their chests, that they're better trained because they are career firefighters - but we all know that some places aren't meeting their minimal requirements. (I am NOT speaking specifically about any one department, so please don't slash my tires guys! )

We ALL have room for improvement, we just need to put the paid vs. volunteer BS aside and make those "looking out for us" (see: FASNY, etc.) come together and develop a realistic training requirement for both sides and give departments the abilities to meet these requirements (IE: MTOs for paid AND volunteer).

Our Department, as far as I can tell and based on what I hear, is pushing more training than most others around us. It would be so much nicer if all the time many of us took to become FSI I or II could give our guys OFPC programs that we lack in Westchester. We have close to a dozen members that are FSI I or II basically being under-utilized.

We all know improvements need to be made, but we're all hitting that glass ceiling created by the state, due to narrow-minded and tradition-bound organizations that have made it impossible for all of us to be better.

The desire (by most) is there, it's just a shame a lot of us speak up and find our concerns falling on deaf ears.

NYS is a "home rule" state. Your department can teach its firefighters whatever it wants to, as long as your 8 hours of PESH training is covered. Having an MTO will only allow your department to teach certain OFPC courses, which because of the home rule issue are NOT MANDATED courses. OFPC recommends that all firefighters should have certain courses, only the AHJ (your department) can mandate what training is required. If your department wants to teach their own courses, they can buy a canned program from Delmar or IFSTA and teach the course using your in house instructors who are instructor qualified. OFPC will even give a certification as long as you follow the attached guideline.

OFPC equivalency

[SteveOFD 176]

As some of you know, I work full time as a safety professional. So I deal with this subject all the time.

The annual safety training is as follows and I will tell you who requires it:

...

Quarterly Fire Brigade training (on any topic related to firefighting) (This is where the 100/8 hr part comes in; those numbers came from PESH)

...

Bloodborne Pathogens (OSHA/PESH)

T.B. (PESH)

Now the 100/8 hr annual training was never meant to be a class taken at once. That is the annual training under the fire brigade standard, which includes all types of training. So when you really think about it, no matter if you are career or volunteer even 100 hours is not going to cut it.

...

Now the 8 hour "safety training". As I said before that 8 hour class came out of the fire brigade standard, as an annual training requirement for volunteers.

This class as described below:

General Hazard Recognition

Station Safety

Response Safety

Scene Safety

PPE

SCBA

Tools & Equipment

New Developments

Came from the NY State Fire Chiefs Association from a class they provide to help the volunteers meet the 8 hour and the annual safety (refresher) training requirements. As I said before the 100/8 hour was never meant to be a one class thing. However, this format, if you can get in all the required annual safety training will work. Best part is that the paperwork is easy to come up with. You just need to make sure you cover everything.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

FYI,

Just to expand on the comments above regarding the "OSHA 8 hour" requirement. I provided my contact at NYS PESH (a Senior Safety & Health Inspector) the information above regarding the class designed by the NY State Fire Chiefs Assoiciation along with it's content. He stated that he had always wondered where the "OSHA 8 hour" rule had come from, so it appears it is not a PESH rule/regulation.

I also asked about Bloodbourne Pathogen and Tuberculosis training for FF's, he stated "all employees with the potential to be exposed to blood or Other Potentially Infectious Materials (bodily fluids, etc) must receive annual Exposure Control training based on the Department's written BBP Exposure Control plan (all required under 29 CFR 1910.1030)." So, PESH does not specifically require this for FF's. Not that this training is not a bad thing (my commentary). As per TB training, he stated this would apply more to EMT's than interior FF's, but that it is complex with multiple standards that might apply.

As I stated in my opening post if anyone has any questions I will provide contact information, and he is more than willing to provide any information needed.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

FYI,

Just to expand on the comments above regarding the "OSHA 8 hour" requirement. I provided my contact at NYS PESH (a Senior Safety & Health Inspector) the information above regarding the class designed by the NY State Fire Chiefs Assoiciation along with it's content. He stated that he had always wondered where the "OSHA 8 hour" rule had come from, so it appears it is not a PESH rule/regulation.

I also asked about Bloodbourne Pathogen and Tuberculosis training for FF's, he stated "all employees with the potential to be exposed to blood or Other Potentially Infectious Materials (bodily fluids, etc) must receive annual Exposure Control training based on the Department's written BBP Exposure Control plan (all required under 29 CFR 1910.1030)." So, PESH does not specifically require this for FF's. Not that this training is not a bad thing (my commentary). As per TB training, he stated this would apply more to EMT's than interior FF's, but that it is complex with multiple standards that might apply.

As I stated in my opening post if anyone has any questions I will provide contact information, and he is more than willing to provide any information needed.

Steve as far as BBP goes..he was very non descript in what you quoted. However I would make the argument it is required because the potential is there if you respond to motor vehicle accidents, technical rescue scenarios or any other trauma based response being EMS or not.

[tonyc856 16]

FYI,

Just to expand on the comments above regarding the "OSHA 8 hour" requirement. I provided my contact at NYS PESH (a Senior Safety & Health Inspector) the information above regarding the class designed by the NY State Fire Chiefs Assoiciation along with it's content. He stated that he had always wondered where the "OSHA 8 hour" rule had come from, so it appears it is not a PESH rule/regulation.

I also asked about Bloodbourne Pathogen and Tuberculosis training for FF's, he stated "all employees with the potential to be exposed to blood or Other Potentially Infectious Materials (bodily fluids, etc) must receive annual Exposure Control training based on the Department's written BBP Exposure Control plan (all required under 29 CFR 1910.1030)." So, PESH does not specifically require this for FF's. Not that this training is not a bad thing (my commentary). As per TB training, he stated this would apply more to EMT's than interior FF's, but that it is complex with multiple standards that might apply.

As I stated in my opening post if anyone has any questions I will provide contact information, and he is more than willing to provide any information needed.

It was PESH who came up with the number of training hours. It is in some old interpretation memo that they put out back in the mid-90's.

As stated by the last poster, there is no way a fire company can get out of the bloodborne pathegens part because of MVA, and rescue is a part of the basic job discrption. Just like a fire company cannot get out of the haz-mat at the operation level, because when a haz-mat call comes in the first level (awareness) was already done at that point.

TB being airborne is not a bloodborne pathegon, however, since back in the 90's NY state had a high incident rate of TB, PESH tacked it on then.

Oh I know we have some highway workers on here, for that bunch PESH wants them at Haz-Mat awareness and they have a rabies standard that they need to do.

[SteveOFD 176]

Steve as far as BBP goes..he was very non descript in what you quoted. However I would make the argument it is required because the potential is there if you respond to motor vehicle accidents, technical rescue scenarios or any other trauma based response being EMS or not.

I agree, better to be safe than sorry.