New Rochelle reduces minimum staffing for Fire Department, cites finances

[PHIL78 129]

Speechless...........

[Guest mjse7]

we have depts upstate that run 2men engines and trucks. I don't know why we let the cities do this.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Journal news

NEW ROCHELLE — Beginning today, the New Rochelle Fire Department's minimum staffing level will be 24 firefighters, down from 27.

The move will save the city money but could sometimes cost it the use of a ladder company, one of three currently in service.

[LTNRFD 266]

When I was appointed to the New Rochelle Fire Department March 3, 1986 I was happier then a kid in a candy shop. Myself and the other 8 probies were quickly taken under the wings of the 'senior' guys and they were happy to share with us their years of knowledge and wisdom. We were in awe as to what they knew and what their experiences were. During these times of mentoring, many of the senior guys would always say, "just remember you are nothing but a number to the City of New Rochelle". For years I believed that if you gave your all to the job, the City would always do the right thing. Was I wrong !!!!!! As I got older on the job and more experienced it was clear that the City of New Rochelle could care less of the firefighters as individuals.

The City expected their employees to follow the rules and do what we were hired to do and what we swore to uphold. If we didn't we would face the consequences. I have found out that it is a one way street and do as I say not as I do with the City. The City fathers have been sworn to up hold the City charter and provide for it's residences. It amazes me how much money they waste trying to save a dollar. But the money doesn't go to waste it goes to people who are contracted to do a job and they don't do the job, but still gets thousands of dollars while they only save the tax payers hundreds of dollars. All while not following the law. When the City is confronted with their failure to follow the law the response from the City is 'if you don't like it then sue us' . This too is a waste of tax dollars.

Sometimes I think the elected officials are not here for the good of the citizens that elected them to local office, but they are here only as a stepping stone to their own political aspiration.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

If it comes down to six Brothers being laid off, I would hope the surrounding municipalities would do the right thing and hire these guys as transfers. I remember this happened with another city and places like Greenville stepped up. What say ye, Eastchester, Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Fairview, etc?

[FirNaTine 370]

If it comes down to six Brothers being laid off, I would hope the surrounding municipalities would do the right thing and hire these guys as transfers. I remember this happened with another city and places like Greenville stepped up. What say ye, Eastchester, Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Fairview, etc?

Maybe the Union members of these other Depts. dont want any new guys to be hired after all it may cut into filling vacancies with OT for these other Union brothers. Just a thought.

[CBX4627 114]

Maybe the Union members of these other Depts. dont want any new guys to be hired after all it may cut into filling vacancies with OT for these other Union brothers. Just a thought.

Did you really just type that on a public forum?............................. We have a saying on my job for guys like you............."BMA".............Brother My A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet you're the guy who would rather take the overtime then help a brother out who needed the tour off.................

Edited November 18, 2011 by CBX4627

[FirNaTine 370]

Did you really just type that on a public forum?............................. We have a saying on my job for guys like you............."BMA".............Brother My A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet you're the guy who would rather take the overtime then help a brother out who needed the tour off.................

Yeah i said it and what's wrong with it? Maybe I'm lookin out for myself and my family cause i'm retiring and would like a little extra in my pension. What's wrong with that eveybody's doing it. It sucks guys get laid off but i'll worry about my fellow Union Brothers I work and eat with and their careers and families before an outsider. Sorry that's just the way life is. Maybe also some of these guys in other Depts. have real flesh and blood brothers or cousins who have a chance of gettin on the Job but won't because of trasnsfers, ever think about that? How would you feel about FDNY taking transfers and not hiring you after you broke your a** taking and meeting all the steps to get on a Job you've always wanted to do. Don't critisize me for lookin after my own well being and that of my friends i work with!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Yeah i said it and what's wrong with it? Maybe I'm lookin out for myself and my family cause i'm retiring and would like a little extra in my pension. What's wrong with that eveybody's doing it. It sucks guys get laid off but i'll worry about my fellow Union Brothers I work and eat with and their careers and families before an outsider. Sorry that's just the way life is. Maybe also some of these guys in other Depts. have real flesh and blood brothers or cousins who have a chance of gettin on the Job but won't because of trasnsfers, ever think about that? How would you feel about FDNY taking transfers and not hiring you after you broke your a** taking and meeting all the steps to get on a Job you've always wanted to do. Don't critisize me for lookin after my own well being and that of my friends i work with!

Fir Na Tine (MEN of Fire)

I was actually going to write a defense of your post; I thought for sure you were being sarcastic. It's quite obvious you were not, you are dead serious. I think your post summarizes the mindset of what has taken hold in many of the locals in the fire service; hoorah for me and mine, screw everybody else. Did you ever think; what if the roles were reversed and it was your job on the cutting block? Wouldn't you hope that another job would consider taking on an experienced firefighter, with all the required NYS training and certification in the world? The Brothers who might be losing their jobs in New Rochelle did nothing wrong to be losing those positions. I would hope if I were in that position, some chief somewhere would still understand that Brotherhood extends beyond the ridiculous boundaries which still separate the smaller jobs in south Westchester.

As far as padding your pension goes, how much extra would you expect to be making without all of your slots filled on your job? Whatever happened to this thing we call "The Brotherhood"? Where everybody sacrifices just a little for the greater good? I'm glad I'm retired now, if your mindset is prevalent on the job.

And you of all people who always rail against "lowering standards". What exactly do you think you are advocating for in this post? To me, you have stated just about the lowest standard a "Brother" could stoop too.

"Men of fire" Fir Na tine....not "Boys of Greed."

[FirNaTine 370]

Fir Na Tine (MEN of Fire)

I was actually going to write a defense of your post; I thought for sure you were being sarcastic. It's quite obvious you were not, you are dead serious. I think your post summarizes the mindset of what has taken hold in many of the locals in the fire service; hoorah for me and mine, screw everybody else. Did you ever think; what if the roles were reversed and it was your job on the cutting block? Wouldn't you hope that another job would consider taking on an experienced firefighter, with all the required NYS training and certification in the world? The Brothers who might be losing their jobs in New Rochelle did nothing wrong to be losing those positions. I would hope if I were in that position, some chief somewhere would still understand that Brotherhood extends beyond the ridiculous boundaries which still separate the smaller jobs in south Westchester.

As far as padding your pension goes, how much extra would you expect to be making without all of your slots filled on your job? Whatever happened to this thing we call "The Brotherhood"? Where everybody sacrifices just a little for the greater good? I'm glad I'm retired now, if your mindset is prevalent on the job.

And you of all people who always rail against "lowering standards". What exactly do you think you are advocating for in this post? To me, you have stated just about the lowest standard a "Brother" could stoop too.

"Men of fire" Fir Na tine....not "Boys of Greed."

And that's just what City Officials are lookin for Capt. ways to save money like not having to pay for a new recruits training. Let me ask you something, if you had a son, brother or cousin who had a great shot at getting on the Job and they refused him cause the Officials wanted to save money by taking a transfer would you be ok with that even after seeing your kin break their a** and do everything they were suppose to do to get on the Job? I know I'd be pretty pissed off .

[ems-buff 81]

Can they hire the guys layed off. Being they are from a city list, to enter towns and villages..?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

And that's just what City Officials are lookin for Capt. ways to save money like not having to pay for a new recruits training. Let me ask you something, if you had a son, brother or cousin who had a great shot at getting on the Job and they refused him cause the Officials wanted to save money by taking a transfer would you be ok with that even after seeing your kin break their a** and do everything they were suppose to do to get on the Job? I know I'd be pretty pissed off .

Yes I'd be pissed. But, a compassionate chief who would take a transfer could also handle that situation properly by bringing in the potential recruit, explaining the situation, and telling him a spot will be available for him, in conjunction with discussions of the career chiefs. This is where the Career Chiefs Association could have a major positive effect. If they all discussed the situation and looked at the list of potential recruits who could be effected, they could all act together to absorb the impact of the transfers; ie, agree that the recruits will be hired at some point by somebody.

Communication amongst the chiefs of these small departments could minimize the effect of bringing transfers across these antiquated district lines. Another important reason to dust off the consolidation study.

But still Bro, we could all take a small hit to help each other out in these difficult times. Could we not?

[FirNaTine 370]

Yes I'd be pissed. But, a compassionate chief who would take a transfer could also handle that situation properly by bringing in the potential recruit, explaining the situation, and telling him a spot will be available for him, in conjunction with discussions of the career chiefs. This is where the Career Chiefs Association could have a major positive effect. If they all discussed the situation and looked at the list of potential recruits who could be effected, they could all act together to absorb the impact of the transfers; ie, agree that the recruits will be hired at some point by somebody.

Communication amongst the chiefs of these small departments could minimize the effect of bringing transfers across these antiquated district lines. Another important reason to dust off the consolidation study.

But still Bro, we could all take a small hit to help each other out in these difficult times. Could we not?

Respectfully disagree. Don't see it especially in these times. Not to mention i guarantee many who may agree with you would be the same people who'd stab you in the back for a Promotion but that's another topic for another time. I've said it before and Ill say it again the "Brotherhood" of the Job is a lost tradition but I dont see how lookin out after my own and denying those who have been laid off a job in my Dept. makes me that much less of a Brother FF. IMO it makes me more so one.

[NWFDMedic 58]

What cities "up your way" are similar in size and demographics to New Rochelle?

Are those cities adequately manned? If so, what are you basing your opinion on?

I would hope that as you offer your opinion on what constitutes proper manning for a profession you apparently know little about in a city you seem to know even less about that there are real Firefighters who are likely going to be losing their livelihood there and the rest will be left to pick up the slack.

I didn't off an opinion about your staffing. I know nothing about the City of NR except for its call volume. I do know that its FF on shift per call is higher than just about every city in this area (excluding FDNY). However, that's a simple calculation that doesn't account for timing of the calls, type of calls, time on task per call, resources needed per call, etc. The number of "employed" firefighters also doesn't account for those who are "employed" but out on some type of injury.

Also, I might make a suggestion that you proofread your posts. Your last sentence is not only a run-on sentence, it's a fragment that makes little to no sense.

[FirNaTine 370]

But, a compassionate chief who would take a transfer could also handle that situation properly by bringing in the potential recruit, explaining the situation, and telling him a spot will be available for him, in conjunction with discussions of the career chiefs. point by somebody.

Even if that potential recruit was his son or nephew? I think not. C'mon already lets get real on this!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I think that maybe some people should retire! Wouldn't that save and maybe open up some spots for others on the a list?

[FirNaTine 370]

I think that maybe some people should retire! Wouldn't that save and maybe open up some spots for others on the a list?

True but you cant force anyone to retire. Maybe they got it so good they want to stay for awhile?

[Danger 160]

I've said it before and Ill say it again the "Brotherhood" of the Job is a lost tradition

I think they call that a self fulfilling prophecy

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

True but you cant force anyone to retire. Maybe they got it so good they want to stay for awhile?

I agree with you, but when is enough, enough? I am all about everyone getting theirs, but there also comes a point when a person is actually losing money by sticking around. I am pretty sure everyone has the number in their heads around the 17 year mark on what they need to get out in 20, if that is what your retirement is. Unless you are in a position to get a promotion, I think if you hit your mark then retire. I also do understand that some unforseen things do come up negating this option.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I didn't off an opinion about your staffing. I know nothing about the City of NR except for its call volume. I do know that its FF on shift per call is higher than just about every city in this area (excluding FDNY).

Chances are these other departments are not meeting the mark when it comes to national standards set forth for efficiency and safety of operations. If all you know about NR is the call volume, you know too little to compare them to anyone.

Also, can you explain the logic used in a calculation that determines "firefighters per shift per call"? Most of these types of numbers are used to compare FD to FD, but one must also show the types of responses and other factors to have any realistic comparison. A FD that provides first responder EMS may have greater incident counts than a similar FD that does zero EMS, but have far less time per incident due to the nature of the work.

[16fire5 693]

I didn't off an opinion about your staffing. I know nothing about the City of NR except for its call volume. I do know that its FF on shift per call is higher than just about every city in this area (excluding FDNY). However, that's a simple calculation that doesn't account for timing of the calls, type of calls, time on task per call, resources needed per call, etc. The number of "employed" firefighters also doesn't account for those who are "employed" but out on some type of injury.

Also, I might make a suggestion that you proofread your posts. Your last sentence is not only a run-on sentence, it's a fragment that makes little to no sense.

City of New Rochelle is a City of 72,000. Your comparisons are apples to oranges or oranges to grapes. New Rochelle has true commercial high rises and a large daily influx of workers that the other cities I assume you are comparing to does not. I'm guessing the 72,000 is low ball anyway and definatly does not include the college students.

[FirNaTine 370]

I agree with you, but when is enough, enough? I am all about everyone getting theirs, but there also comes a point when a person is actually losing money by sticking around. I am pretty sure everyone has the number in their heads around the 17 year mark on what they need to get out in 20, if that is what your retirement is. Unless you are in a position to get a promotion, I think if you hit your mark then retire. I also do understand that some unforseen things do come up negating this option.

Agreed. Very true

[fireboy 6]

Its unfortunate to still see cuts to our fire departments locally and around the nation, hopefully we see the end of these soon, after all police officers and firefighters risk their lives every day and to cut them is like a slap in the face, there are other things that can be cut and it should not be firemen or cops.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

But, a compassionate chief who would take a transfer could also handle that situation properly by bringing in the potential recruit, explaining the situation, and telling him a spot will be available for him, in conjunction with discussions of the career chiefs. point by somebody.

Even if that potential recruit was his son or nephew? I think not. C'mon already lets get real on this!

I'll take your last couple of comments on face value in that I will not infer from them anything that has to do with me personally. If I am wrong please enlighten the board as to what you are referring too.

The point I was trying to make about the career chiefs; they commissioned the consolidation study for south Westchester. While there in no movement with regard to that study (that we are aware of on this board anyway) that does not mean the career chiefs cannot start acting proactively when dealing with issues such as hiring. Think about it; ten departments combined, one of which is in the process of laying off six members. If the departments were combined, would this be happening? Or would the cost savings and effectiveness of a combined service make this not the case?

The fact that each fiefdom has it's own residency list would become a non-factor if all recruits were being hired for a larger partial county system. There would be more retirements as older members with more than their time in, would be hard pressed to adopt to a new command structure, new assignments that took them out of a cushy house somewhere in the 'burbs and put them down on 3rd and 3rd in the Vern. There would be more opportunity overall.

I still respectfully disagree with your assessment; I mean it would have to be an environment of near desperation for this to be the case. Yet, time and again we hear and read so many good things about the brotherhood, and that it is alive and well. I'd like to know what the Greenville guys think, as it is my understanding they were one of the departments that took in members from another job that were being laid off. Maybe they could provide some enlightening facts to the board.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

And that's just what City Officials are lookin for Capt. ways to save money like not having to pay for a new recruits training. Let me ask you something, if you had a son, brother or cousin who had a great shot at getting on the Job and they refused him cause the Officials wanted to save money by taking a transfer would you be ok with that even after seeing your kin break their a** and do everything they were suppose to do to get on the Job? I know I'd be pretty pissed off .

And I'm not buying this argument as to why you'd be against taking a transfer. You stated very clearly your reason for being against it; it would take some OT out of your pocket. This is just another reason to rail against taking a transfer you thought of after stating your opinion; your original thoughts had nothing to do with "somebody's son or nephew."

Sorry.

[FirNaTine 370]

I'll take your last couple of comments on face value in that I will not infer from them anything that has to do with me personally. If I am wrong please enlighten the board as to what you are referring too.

The point I was trying to make about the career chiefs; they commissioned the consolidation study for south Westchester. While there in no movement with regard to that study (that we are aware of on this board anyway) that does not mean the career chiefs cannot start acting proactively when dealing with issues such as hiring. Think about it; ten departments combined, one of which is in the process of laying off six members. If the departments were combined, would this be happening? Or would the cost savings and effectiveness of a combined service make this not the case?

The fact that each fiefdom has it's own residency list would become a non-factor if all recruits were being hired for a larger partial county system. There would be more retirements as older members with more than their time in, would be hard pressed to adopt to a new command structure, new assignments that took them out of a cushy house somewhere in the 'burbs and put them down on 3rd and 3rd in the Vern. There would be more opportunity overall.

I still respectfully disagree with your assessment; I mean it would have to be an environment of near desperation for this to be the case. Yet, time and again we hear and read so many good things about the brotherhood, and that it is alive and well. I'd like to know what the Greenville guys think, as it is my understanding they were one of the departments that took in members from another job that were being laid off. Maybe they could provide some enlightening facts to the board.

As far as your first comments are concerned i don't know what your even talking about. Why would it have to do with you personally? Want to elaborate? I honestly don't even know who you are. I also don't understand how me personally not wanting to take tranfers became a platform for the Consolidation Plan. How would this also persuade mebers to retire. Do you really think they would send senior members down to the Vern and that would force them to retire or would they send those with seniority to the smaller and quiter areas and let them ride out the remainder of their career, like many Depts. already do within. Hell, you may get some that don't even want to retire. I think our best bet is for some greenburgh members to chime in and give us their honest opinion.

[FirNaTine 370]

And I'm not buying this argument as to why you'd be against taking a transfer. You stated very clearly your reason for being against it; it would take some OT out of your pocket. This is just another reason to rail against taking a transfer you thought of after stating your opinion; your original thoughts had nothing to do with "somebody's son or nephew."

Sorry.

First of all you don't have to buy anything cause i'm not selling anything and your right it was an after thought but just another example why some may not want a transferee. I'm sure there's many other reasons why some guys would not want it either. Let me ask you something there Capt, what do you think is worse and a true slap in the face to the Brotherhood guys not taking transfers from other Depts. for whatever the reason may be or a members fellow so called Brothers not making concessions on a negotiated contract or one to be negotiated, to save their fellow Union Brothers Job. The latter seems to be the most prevalent reason guys get laid off and not only in FD Unions but other Organized Labor Agencies. And your worrying about me padding my pension with ot, which I have every right to do instead of a Union memeber getting laid off cause his Brothers thru him to the wolves. C'mon!

[Bnechis 3,961]

And that's just what City Officials are lookin for Capt. ways to save money like not having to pay for a new recruits training.

While that has been the model in the past, in our current situation at least 1 mayor has stated that the savings from training needs to be weighed against the pension savings of a new tier V employee.

Can they hire the guys layed off. Being they are from a city list, to enter towns and villages..?

Yes and its been done before.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think that maybe some people should retire! Wouldn't that save and maybe open up some spots for others on the a list?

We have atleast 3 people retiring (and they are reducing our total size by these members also) and thats preventing an additional 3 members being laid off.

We also have members who are disabled and have been waiting for years for NYS to retire them. These are members who have major life long disabilities and can never work again and the state is taking years to review the paperwork. If the state would agree with all of the doctors (including their own) we could reduce the number of lay offs.

[yfd910 8]

FirNaTine....

Nothing personal, but you, my friend, are our own worst enemy.....