Fire Houses and New Apparatus

[Dinosaur 844]

I was just talking to a buddy of mine whose department is buying a new engine. They did all the spec's, went on all the trips to see the factory, and others using the same frame. Delivery is just a few months away and lo and behold they discovered that it won't fit in their firehouse. I know we've seen this discussed before and I know it is usually the brunt of a joke or two but I want to ask a serious question.

How is it that the FDNY and other departments with old and small firehouses are able to house brand new apparatus without these issues? I mean if the FDNY and some of the older Westchester departments can put new apparatus in 100 year old firehouses shouldn't we all be able to?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Simple, What did they spec ? Doesn't sound like they did any homework at all !

[FF398 45]

It's like the old saying, "measure twice, cut once." The FDNY orders all their rigs from generation to generation with the same specs. That way, there's no issues with fitting into their firehouses.

Edited November 14, 2011 by FF398

[newsbuff 286]

How is it that the FDNY and other departments with old and small firehouses are able to house brand new apparatus without these issues?

Much like what FF398 and ENG58 said, the apparatus committees that don't have these issues actually do some work(gasp!), and make sure things like this don't happen. Sounds like its time for some new members on that committee.

[justanothermedic 5]

The way we did it was to put the "must not exceed" dimensions in our spec that all the vendors got. In our case, the most critical restriction was a 10' high door, so we restricted the maximum height to 9'6". We'd done our homework, and knew that this was reasonable and possible (but not completely trivial - many engines come in at just over 10').

After we'd signed the contract, I personally measured the engine before it was painted, and before we paid for it.

If it is a height problem, they may be able to do something similar to what we did for our tender, which exceeds 10'. We housed it initially in a different station (14' doors), and had a higher door put in the main station (12'). I've also heard of lowering the floor (sounds like a nightmare), or lowering the truck by monkeying with the suspension (not ideal by any means).

-mike

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just like everyone said above, you need to include the height requirement in the specification sheet. When I was on the apparatus committee for my company, we measured the firehouse door height and also the angle of departure / entrance of front ramp. We also had other fire companies come in with tier apparatus to see if that truck would fit in. We figured out that 9-foot 8-inches was the absolute maximum height we could go on our new rig. We placed in out specifications that the pumper "shall not exceed 115 inches (9-feet 7-inches) in height." Our rig with a 6-inch raised roof cab came in at 9-feet 6-inches including a beefed up suspension.

[mstrang1 213]

Remember when you are dealing with close tolerances like this, that the height of an engine with a tank full of water is less than an empty tank. Tools and hose also weigh a significant amount and can affect ride height. I was driving the old Pierce Snorkl at work once and changed over back to E7 in quarters. It cleared the door fully loaded, but once it was empty of equipment, rubbed the door on the way out. Luckily, the ramp at E7 is flat, otherwise it could have been pretty bad. Also, be careful of ice and snow buildup on the ramp, any buildup will knock out any extra room for clearance you have.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just like everyone said above, you need to include the height requirement in the specification sheet. When I was on the apparatus committee for my company, we measured the firehouse door height and also the angle of departure / entrance of front ramp. We also had other fire companies come in with tier apparatus to see if that truck would fit in. We figured out that 9-foot 8-inches was the absolute maximum height we could go on our new rig. We placed in out specifications that the pumper "shall not exceed 115 inches (9-feet 7-inches) in height." Our rig with a 6-inch raised roof cab came in at 9-feet 6-inches including a beefed up suspension.

Well said. We do the same, but add one additional clause:

The manufacturer shall insure that the apparatus will fit into and out of station #__ located at 123 Main St. With and without equipment/water/hose. It will be able to turn left and right without the need to backup.

The rig can still be the measurement you spec'd, but this means that the manufacturer must correct and thing that prevents it from getting into the house or they do not get paid.

On one ladder, the manufacturer came out before the bid and actually made a templet of a station with low arched doors, and other issues.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

It is really simple to fit a a new fire truck in an old or small house...planning.

[FFMedic62 0]

It says something about the sales reps also in planning our last rig the first question that the two reps we dealt with the most asked was how big is your smallest firehouse

[FFPCogs 863]

I would definitely agree with everyone else in that the most important thing is planning. "Measure twice cut once" is the best advice. But I must add my own personal two cents here. The trend with each successive rig purchase for alot of FDs seems to be bigger is better. If we had a 1000gpm Engine now we need 1250, if we carried 500 gallons of water now we need 750 and so on. Now some expansion is practical and necessary, but some isn't either. I'm a firm believer in the philosophy "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and I think that adage applies here in many instances. And another thing more and more we see FDs trying to do it all with one rig..and as I've said many times before, it has been my experience that trying to fit everything into one rig usually means you end up with a rig that does none of them well. Yes money is tight, but for most of us there are resources relatively close at hand in the form of mutual aid that can offset alot of the supposed deficiencies a one rig wonder is supposed to solve...and more often than not doesn't as we expected. Remember too that salesman are just that... salesmen...they're looking to make the most off anything they sell you and many times will tell you whatever you want to hear to get it. And frankly it's not their responsibility to make sure a rig fits in YOUR firehouse...it's yours. Buying what's needed and not always what's wanted can go a long way in solving these occurences and bigger is NOT always better...it's just bigger!!

Stay Safe

Cogs

Edited November 15, 2011 by FFPCogs

[jacko1026 7]

Years ago in yonkers, the doors at sta 4, 7, and 10 had to be widened to fit modern apparatus...just last year the decorative stone arches of sta 9 had to be removed to fit the new 72 because of the built in ladder pipe

[Guest ME4]

I am surprised this is still an issue with any FD.

Ordered apparatus not fitting into a firehouse was a fairly common issue when apparatus manufacturers went to dual rear axles on ladders and rescues in the 90s.

I know a 10' Travel Height was and still is a huge selling point due to the number of older firehouses still used.

I recall stories of FDs having to swap apparatus with other depts because apparatus they ordered would not fit into their firehouse.

This type of error is an epic failure by the apparatus committee.

A ladder and a tape measure would have prevented this glaring error.

Not to mention simply putting a line into the spec that the "apparatus must fit into the firehouse it is to be housed in" would have put the onus on the builder.

[IzzyEng4 427]

...I know a 10' Travel Height was and still is a huge selling point due to the number of older firehouses still used...

Don't forget all the low over-passes as well. We got a lot of railroad and street overpasses that are just under 11 feet also in the Northeast.

[nfd2004 750]

Its not only firehouses. Izzy makes a good point. Years ago when Bidgeport Cts Fire headquarters was built next to that firehouse was a railroad under pass. They purchased a high ranger Snorkel as their Truck Co 5. When a run came in as the other companies (Sqd 5, Eng 1, Eng 5--rest in peace) would turn Right, and go under that overpass, Truck 5 had to turn Left and go about eight blocks out of their way.

That underpass has now been torn down and has been replaced with a new one which doesn't interfere with the response at all. Good thing, because the left turn that Truck 5 would then make is now closed due to very long term bridge construction. So now, everybody turns Right even though the fire is a few blocks on the Left.

Right or Left, as long as they get there, I guess. So in some places, its not just the firehouse that needs to be considered.

Thanks Izzy.

[sfrd18 360]

Its not only firehouses. Izzy makes a good point. Years ago when Bidgeport Cts Fire headquarters was built next to that firehouse was a railroad under pass. They purchased a high ranger Snorkel as their Truck Co 5. When a run came in as the other companies (Sqd 5, Eng 1, Eng 5--rest in peace) would turn Right, and go under that overpass, Truck 5 had to turn Left and go about eight blocks out of their way.

That underpass has now been torn down and has been replaced with a new one which doesn't interfere with the response at all. Good thing, because the left turn that Truck 5 would then make is now closed due to very long term bridge construction. So now, everybody turns Right even though the fire is a few blocks on the Left.

Right or Left, as long as they get there, I guess. So in some places, its not just the firehouse that needs to be considered.

Thanks Izzy.

Very true. Both Izzy and Willy D have a point. Overpasses are very much a part of the New England landscape. I remember (I think it was) in Stratford, CT: a developer wanted to build a multi-story complex North of the Merritt Pkwy., but it was turned down because Stratford's Ladder 1 couldn't fit underneath the Parkway overpass, thus, there would be no ladder truck available for a fire.

I'm amazed that the Congress Street Bridge next to Bridgeport Fire Headquarters over the river is still out. It's been years now. Every time Engine 1, Ladder 5, Rescue 5, Battalion 1, and or Deputy 1 take in a Box on the East Side, they have to go at least 3-4 blocks up and around out of their way. Before it's closure, Bridgeport Engine 2(Now a BPD Precinct), was stationed only a few blocks West of where Fire Headquarters stands today, but on the other side of the river. Although it was only minutes away from HQ, they could take in any of Engine 1's jobs when the Congress St. Bridge (that's now up permanently), was up. It would be nice if they were still around.

By the way Willy, correct me if I'm wrong, but the overpass you're refering to would be the Stratford/Fairfield Ave. overpass?

[nfd2004 750]

By the way Willy, correct me if I'm wrong, but the overpass you're refering to would be the Stratford/Fairfield Ave. overpass?

No, that overpass that I was referring to was a railroad overpass on Congress St and ran along Houstonic Ave. If the rigs pulled out of fire Hqs and turned right they came right up to it. It was demolished several years ago, just before the Congress St Bridge construction.

[sfrd18 360]

No, that overpass that I was referring to was a railroad overpass on Congress St and ran along Houstonic Ave. If the rigs pulled out of fire Hqs and turned right they came right up to it. It was demolished several years ago, just before the Congress St Bridge construction.

Right, my bad. I forgot that the tracks went up that far.

[cman473 56]

Shouldn't this be one of your first concerns when building a specification for a new apparatus and furthermore also once you actually get a final spec don't you review them prior you putting it out public to bid? I mean it is not rocket science. In my opinion the apparatus not fitting in your fire house, ya know the fire house you BUILT it for, is Unacceptable. :angry:

Now If the truck didn't meet your spec...don't except it until it does.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Willie and SFRD, I though that was Fairfield and not Stratford?? I may be wrong with my thinking. Fairfield as well as Milford have a number of lowe Metro North overpasses that pretty much cut the towns in half, let alone the rest of the shore-line towns.

Edited November 17, 2011 by IzzyEng4

[sfrd18 360]

Willie and SFRD, I though that was Fairfield and not Stratford?? I may be wrong with my thinking. Fairfield as well as Milford have a number of lowe Metro North overpasses that pretty much cut the towns in half, let alone the rest of the shore-line towns.

I'm pretty sure it was Stratford, but I could be wrong. I don't think it would be a problem in Fairfield, as they have 2 Ladders in town, and Ladder 2's on the North side of the tracks.

But, yes, especially in Fairfield, Stratford, and Milford, there are several underpasses that are pretty tight, even for cars, let alone fire trucks.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I'm pretty sure it was Stratford, but I could be wrong. I don't think it would be a problem in Fairfield, as they have 2 Ladders in town, and Ladder 2's on the North side of the tracks.

But, yes, especially in Fairfield, Stratford, and Milford, there are several underpasses that are pretty tight, even for cars, let alone fire trucks.

This is where I was getting confused. Fairfield only started staffing a second ladder last year (and thier call volume warranted it), prior to that they only ran Ladder 2 out of Station 2 for years as the only ladder company. Usually they had to go around the long way to the higher overpasses or the bridges over the RR viaduct to get to Route 1 due to the height of the rigs. But that is always been a problem over the years no matter what town with RR lines in CT.

Stratford purchased their current mid-mount Pierce in the early 2000s for the purpose of getting under the low overpasses of the RR and Meritt Parkway. Prior to that they had a Pierce Arrow rear-mount tower ladder. The Route 15 overpass by Sikorskys on Route 110 was high enough for the old tower to get under it. The only other overpass might be the one that is down the road from Hawley Lane (behind the mall on the Trumbull line, not the one that leads you into Nichols village on Rte 108), it may have been in that area where they would actually have to go into Trumbull and then into Shelton to come back into Stratford (Rte 108 to Huntington Road-Stratford). I'm not sure though, I'll do some asking. There is all homes up in that area anyway if this is where you were thinking.

Edited November 18, 2011 by IzzyEng4

[nfd2004 750]

Izzy, you're right, but I was just refering to the one in Bridgeport near fireheadquarters. There's many in FFld and New Haven County.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

not just the height, the length as well..... GUILTY , GUILTY. We have a 10' door with a steep ramp, so all the rigs need to be 9'6". We were so worried about the height of our tanker and the stubborn on the requirement of 3000 gallons, that to make the height requirement , ment the length of the rig had to be increased.

As we were reading the bids, we realized the the truck would be as long as the tower ladder and it would not fit in the bay or go down roads we needed it too. Legally, we had to throw the specs out, rebid with 2500 gallon tank. Needless to say the First Selectwoman was not too happy with me. I was'nt happy with her either, she always kept telling me to have bake sales...

Sometimes we overlook the oblivious.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

not just the height, the length as well..... GUILTY , GUILTY. We have a 10' door with a steep ramp, so all the rigs need to be 9'6". We were so worried about the height of our tanker and the stubborn on the requirement of 3000 gallons, that to make the height requirement , ment the length of the rig had to be increased.

As we were reading the bids, we realized the the truck would be as long as the tower ladder and it would not fit in the bay or go down roads we needed it too. Legally, we had to throw the specs out, rebid with 2500 gallon tank. Needless to say the First Selectwoman was not too happy with me. I was'nt happy with her either, she always kept telling me to have bake sales...

Sometimes we overlook the oblivious.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Your exactly right Chief! Nothing like seeing a brand new shiny ladder truck and the back end scrape along the ramp or up coming onto / off a steep hill! Better yet, how about those rigs that have the extra low bolt on step that usually gets whacked off of scrapes along a steep roadway? I've seen a few of those happen!!