Gas for Volunteer Members

[everybodygoes 331]

Has anyone looked in to the possibility of providing gas for members cars for volunteering? It seems like a no brainer to me as a retention tool. I would think the only hard part is managing the distribution. This program would give members gas or diesel at the price the AHJ pays for it, allowing members to have a nice savings over gas at the local pump. With prices not going any lower and the economic outlook not any better this would be a great program, kind of like that health care program that never materialized.

[firedude 985]

Several departments do this. They offer a small an amount per call. The hard part is not the distribution; it’s finding out where the money will come from. Locally, Greenwich FD reimbursements it volunteers in the amount of $7.50 per emergency response to account for fuel usage and wear and tear on your personal vehicle (according to their website).

Edited November 13, 2011 by firedude

[everybodygoes 331]

I am thinking more along the lines of you fill up and have a prepaid account, that way you get a break on the price of fuel and more people turn out. Paying to respond like Greenwich does only works cause 3.4's of the people that live there make a couple million a year. Most places couldn't support that unless of course all the volunteers stuck together and didn't respond.

[fireboyny 61]

I am thinking more along the lines of you fill up and have a prepaid account, that way you get a break on the price of fuel and more people turn out. Paying to respond like Greenwich does only works cause 3.4's of the people that live there make a couple million a year. Most places couldn't support that unless of course all the volunteers stuck together and didn't respond.

And at that point they would probably change over to a paid dept.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Oh sorry. I read the title and thought this was a thread about Ibo's chili that he used to make for us at headquarters......

[Bnechis 3,961]

Has anyone looked in to the possibility of providing gas for members cars for volunteering?

Its commonly called pay per call or part time pay. You do know that then you can not right off your volunteer car use on your taxes and as a benefit, it may be taxed.

It seems like a no brainer to me as a retention tool.

Ok then here is the real question, does it retain memebers?

The current active members who are showing up without this gas, are showing up because they want to, not because of the gas. So for them its not retention, its a payment (which if the community agrees, I see no problem with).

Those members who no longer contribute or have resigned are the ones you are then trying to retain and you need to ask 2 questions:

1) do you really want them back? Were the productive members or always just another body?

2) Will free gas bring them back.

Like most retention payments, the big question is will it really work or are we just throwing a little money away and claiming its working?

[NWFDMedic 58]

Volunteer fire departments are needed in many areas because they cannot afford a sufficient career system. However, if the answer to recruit/retain volunteers is to continue to give them more money, why not actually hire firefighters?

[JFLYNN 681]

Has anyone looked in to the possibility of providing gas for members cars for volunteering? It seems like a no brainer to me as a retention tool. I would think the only hard part is managing the distribution. This program would give members gas or diesel at the price the AHJ pays for it, allowing members to have a nice savings over gas at the local pump. With prices not going any lower and the economic outlook not any better this would be a great program, kind of like that health care program that never materialized.

Maybe we could give volunteers tax breaks too! And pensions! Oh, and we can buy a couple of SUV's and let them take turns electing people to use them 24/7! Hey, we can give them a discount on things like a pool membership, breaks from local merchants, movie theatres, etc.! Maybe we can build a hall which they can use for family events and such? We can spend money to throw a big party every year! Oh yes, how about providing a gym? Perhaps we can invest some money on travel reimbursements for vacations, um, I mean training travel...We should also make sure we absolutely do not question any money spent on apparatus and equipment...after all, that is just a "drop in the bucket" and these guys are volunteers, right?

What do you guys think? Will any of these ideas help out with recruitment and retention?

[JJB531 652]

Most places couldn't support that unless of course all the volunteers stuck together and didn't respond.

Can you please elaborate on this statement? I hope I'm not interpreting it to mean that the volunteers can ensure the taxpayers will foot the bill for their gas if they stick together and just not bother to respond to emergency calls for service?

[everybodygoes 331]

Didn't say anything about free gas.

Has anyone implemented a program that allowed members access to off road gas and fuel. If you did, what were the legalities of it and how did you do it.

[breezly 6]

Maybe we could give volunteers tax breaks too! And pensions! Oh, and we can buy a couple of SUV's and let them take turns electing people to use them 24/7! Hey, we can give them a discount on things like a pool membership, breaks from local merchants, movie theatres, etc.! Maybe we can build a hall which they can use for family events and such? We can spend money to throw a big party every year! Oh yes, how about providing a gym? Perhaps we can invest some money on travel reimbursements for vacations, um, I mean training travel...We should also make sure we absolutely do not question any money spent on apparatus and equipment...after all, that is just a "drop in the bucket" and these guys are volunteers, right?

What do you guys think? Will any of these ideas help out with recruitment and retention?

I think you forgot the built in old boys network that ensures no shows and buddies get these benefits. How about buying a new SUV for a buddy while the second due engine in your district (sometimes first due when the primary is OOS) is 40+ Years Old. Hypothetically of course. We should trust people with the town's tax monies, they know what is best.

[everybodygoes 331]

Read it again guys, I said allow members access to gas at the price the AHJ pays for it, not give it to them for free. Allow them to pay the 60 cents less a gallon for gas/fuel so they don't get murdered as much responding.

[joetnymedic 43]

guys, don't murder the guy come on. he had a good idea, making gas available at a discount to "ACTIVE" members. Plus someone brought up the program of per call. that locks in for no abuse. you do the call you get the gas, end of story. i know where some of you guys are coming from. i actually know of a dept that is nothing but a social club. i'm not going to say which or where but this dept doesn't even have a truck. But there is a difference between rewarding those who do serve and playing favorites. So please guys, give this person a chance. Explain why it would or wouldn't work, including the ways it could be open for abuse like you guys have. I respect each and everyone of you on this board and your opinion is very important as are your ideas, experiences, etc. At least to me they are.

Stay Safe Out There

Joe

[BigBuff 27]

I think all he was asking is, at some points, gas is 4+ dollars, and if members go on 30 calls in a 50,000 populated area, thats a tank of gas just going to calls, I agree that they should allow them to fill up their tanks if they have gone on a certain amount of calls. Maybe 10+ calls a week ( if so ) you go on, they give you a tank of gas. Fire department gas tanks aren't small, they fill up ladder trucks, engines, etc. ( as you already know) This is a great topic to start, and I agree on this term.

I am taking it that SOME department chiefs do not like this topic, if i didn't like it, I wouldn't post.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Most places couldn't support that unless of course all the volunteers stuck together and didn't respond.

In organized labor that is called striking.

In career depts. in strong labor states (like NYS) it is illegal and the courts will fine you 2 days pay for each day you do not work (plus you dont get paid for the day). In right to work states, they just fire you.

I think the bad will with the community for not responding without getting something will backfire on you. You volunteered and knew you would not get gas, now without it you want to stop volunteering.

Another problem is do you give the same amount of gas to the guy who shows up, but does nothing and leaves as soon as their is work to do, as the guy who busts his butt?

[ny10570 745]

As others have pointed out, I haven't seen a retention program yet that actually retains members. No active member that's already given up dozens of hours of his time to training, respond at all hours of the day and night, and that shows up to house duty and all the other regular obligations is not about to resign over 50 cents a gallon for regular or diesel. If you want to retain members do things that help them do the job. Spend money on the faulty equipment that guys are sick of dealing with. Ensure members have up to date gear that fits. A real bunk room for standbys in that new fancy firehouse. New and different ways of approaching the same old drill topics. There are better ways to spend retention money than on parties and pension programs.

Edited November 15, 2011 by ny10570

[antiquefirelt 994]

Volunteer fire departments are needed in many areas because they cannot afford a sufficient career system. However, if the answer to recruit/retain volunteers is to continue to give them more money, why not actually hire firefighters?

Our FD has a POC division (call division) which all members are paid for any drill, class or incident they attend. There are 25 slots available and the cost of this is $44k /yr, basically less than the cost of one career firefighters salary and benefits. In the end, while the ability to count on all 25 positions is far less, chances are we get more than one firefighter's worth of work from the call personnel, so it ends up being a good deal for the city. While there are significant pitfalls along the way, it's hard to argue that this system works for us vs. trying to staff up a career only force.

I suggested our union look at allowing members to buy gas and heating oil on the city contract a few years ago when raises were way off the table and basically anything that had any cost associated to the city was a non-starter. It didn't take off, but I still think there's some merit, given that the more fuel and gas the city buys, the lower the annual bid prices come in at. Of course the taxpayers don't tend to like the employees they pay for getting a better deal they they can, but creative ways to offset some of the austere budget measures are worth investigating in my mind. Having had insurance costs crush either zero increases or meager raises in the past two contracts, I'd hope the taxpayers would see that while thye pay our salaries, we too are taxpayers and we too feel the pinch of poor economy.

[Dondestro 9]

Everyone forgets we have more volunteers the paid guys in this country!!!

We shouldn't get gas/pension/tax breaks...any of it. We are volunteers! Just sayin.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Everyone forgets we have more volunteers the paid guys in this country!!!

We shouldn't get gas/pension/tax breaks...any of it. We are volunteers! Just sayin.

Nobody Forgets. Thank you

[Remember585 815]

When are you all going to learn that you can't come here and ask about ways to recruit / retain volunteer members without certain people making comments of the less-than-helpful type? Don't you know that all of us volunteer firefighters are the devil? C'mon!

If I may offer one idea for recruitment and retention, here it is.

Make your department one that people take pride in and are willing to be an active part of because it's their department. The subject of recruitment and retention came up recently when another volunteer agency near us started asking for money to launch a large recruitment/retention plan. Those of us in our FD had informal discussions about it and all agreed that if your department is one that actually looks out for it's members, keeps petty immaturity at a minimum, elects proper leaders and simply does the job asked of it without attached drama, then it will succeed.

Our department's biggest recruitment tool has been the same thing for 100+ years - REPUTATION. During our good times, like now, we see increases in our new member base. During the few times we've had less than par leadership, we've struggled to get some new members and at the same time, saw some good ones leave.

We can offer all the free s#it in the world, but when you really examine it, nobody is going to put up with the petty BS that ruins many volunteer agencies for some free gas or a membership to the gym. You need to make your agency one that it's members are proud to be part of and makes sure the concerns of the members are heard. Make them feel welcome, make them feel proud of what they do and most of all, make them feel safe by giving them the training and direction they all want.

Be safe.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Remember585

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

IF the members of the department are considered town employees AND they use the POV to get to trainings, meetings, responding to calls and other department business then it seem like a good idea to reimburse the members with a gas "card" to be used at the DPW or other town fill stations at the municipal rate based on mileage put on the vehicle.

Not a retention tool, merely a means to ensure that your current members at least have the ability to respond and attend meetings, trainings and alike. While mileage is not as much of an issue in suburban areas but in rural areas where your distance to the station or scene is measured in tens of miles not blocks it can be a serious issue.

Edited November 14, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[FF1 172]

I think that us volis that are in it for the right reasons know what we signed up for. Those guys that say they aren't compensated for what they do and the time that they sacrifice can resign and walk away anytime they want.

[citystation1848 15]

Allowing Active members a discounted gas rate could work, if done correctly. Sure, it would be a great retention tool!

[Dinosaur 844]

Read it again guys, I said allow members access to gas at the price the AHJ pays for it, not give it to them for free. Allow them to pay the 60 cents less a gallon for gas/fuel so they don't get murdered as much responding.

The 60 cents you're referring too are probably taxes unless there's a bulk contract and you get a substantial discount in volume - and with over 150 agencies in Westchester alone I don't think anyone's getting bulk.

If the 'volunteer' is given tax-free gas, you're simply shifting the problem. Now you're reducing the revenue that another entity receives from the sales of that fuel which will result in a tax increase somewhere else. Net gain to the volunteer = ZERO!

Is this really a problem? Are volunteer volumes so high and response distances so great that the cost of gas is stopping volunteers from coming out? Many of the larger/busier EMS agencies already have paid crews on during the day (or 24 hours) so there aren't huge turnouts during the day.

For fire agencies the volume isn't so high and most fire districts are so small that gas usage could be measured (if anyone bothered) in ounces not gallons.

Is this really a recruitment or retention tool or is it just a gimmick because someone wants to pay less for gas?

[Dinosaur 844]

Its commonly called pay per call or part time pay. You do know that then you can not right off your volunteer car use on your taxes and as a benefit, it may be taxed.

Does this make them a combination department?

[YogruntNy 21]

Read it again guys, I said allow members access to gas at the price the AHJ pays for it, not give it to them for free. Allow them to pay the 60 cents less a gallon for gas/fuel so they don't get murdered as much responding.

Just out of curiousity, do you also think that career personnel should also get access to this "discounted" gas for driving to and from work??? Or does this only apply to volunteer organizations as an incentive to remain a member and want to respond to jobs?? I havent lived in a small town in ,or for, a long time, but I didnt think that most of the jobs were that far apart, that frequent or simultaneous that people should using the "its too far" excuse to not respond to a call.... in which to HELP lives/property and in an organization that was purely volunteer to begin with. I truly dont believe (and hope), IN MY OPINION, that volunteer members are complaining too often about being "murdered" in their gas consumption to a call.

Edited November 14, 2011 by YogruntNy

[YogruntNy 21]

The 60 cents you're referring too are probably taxes unless there's a bulk contract and you get a substantial discount in volume - and with over 150 agencies in Westchester alone I don't think anyone's getting bulk.

If the 'volunteer' is given tax-free gas, you're simply shifting the problem. Now you're reducing the revenue that another entity receives from the sales of that fuel which will result in a tax increase somewhere else. Net gain to the volunteer = ZERO!

Is this really a problem? Are volunteer volumes so high and response distances so great that the cost of gas is stopping volunteers from coming out? Many of the larger/busier EMS agencies already have paid crews on during the day (or 24 hours) so there aren't huge turnouts during the day.

For fire agencies the volume isn't so high and most fire districts are so small that gas usage could be measured (if anyone bothered) in ounces not gallons.

Is this really a recruitment or retention tool or is it just a gimmick because someone wants to pay less for gas?

a gimmick...

[DaRock98 76]

Is this really a recruitment or retention tool or is it just a gimmick because someone wants to pay less for gas?

Its a gimmick just like LOSAP. People who are in it for the right reasons will do it and the people who aren't will continue to milk the system and contribute NOTHING to the fire service and still collect all the benefits.

[Dinosaur 844]

Its a gimmick just like LOSAP. People who are in it for the right reasons will do it and the people who aren't will continue to milk the system and contribute NOTHING to the fire service and still collect all the benefits.

I think I remember seeing it asked once before but don't remember ever seeing an answer. Has anyone ever done a cost/benefit analysis of LOSAP? Does anyone know what it is costing in NYS every year?

It would be interesting to know if it working and how much its costing.

[Healz 30]

Volunteer= a person who performs a service willingly and without pay.

What went wrong?

Are you sure that the type of person who comes to a VFD for the LOSAP, Tax break, SUV, or cheap gas is really the kind of person you want as a volunteer?

Edited November 14, 2011 by Healz