Underground Power Lines

[x635 4,066]

I'm wondering feasible it would be to place as many power lines as possible in Westchester underground?

Given the enormous cost of each storm, ongoing tree maintainence, etc, must cost Con Ed millions. In additions, it also has a high economic toll on businesses and homes in Westchester.

Although this would have an enormous cost, would it eventually (long term) be a cheaper solution? Spread over the long term, if we added in at least one major incident like this current one a year, for the next 30 years, how much would the estimated total be? And how much could a potential power underground project benefit the electrical delivery system, even if only placed in high risk areas?

Note: Flood prone areas are not applicable

[sklov5949 23]

In a news brief with Central Hudson's Denise Van Buren she said it would cost about 1 million per mile. So, just doing there coverage area it would be in the Billions of dollars...

[peterose313 345]

There's a story about it on News 12 Westchester today and someone also said that on top of the million per mile, it would cost customers more to hook up to those lines as well so it'd be fees on top of that.

They also mentioned asking the state/federal gov't for help on this to see if they could reduce the cost for all parties involved.

[tbendick 27]

Underground has it own problems. Salt

[ny10570 745]

Its not even close. Maintaining an above ground system is far cheaper than burying the existing lines. An estimate out of Florida put the rate increase between 90 and 120% At a new development in north Jersey my cousins had property in about 10 years ago this was a big debate. Buried lines won out only because most residents didn't believe they'd be there at the end of the system's service life and agreed to pay for all repairs and replacement as is came up. In just paying for the simple instal before there was anything more than staked out lots and felled trees they paid a 20% premium over above ground lines.

After a massive ice storm several years ago in North Carolina(?) blacked out nearly half the state they commissioned several studies on the feasibility of burying all of the states power lines. Outages were less often, but repairs are much more time consuming and expensive. Service upgrades and end of service life repairs are many times more expensive and again take much longer. I believe it was a trade off of 50% fewer outages in exchange for 50% longer duration. In the end they chose to maintain the current system and bury lines in areas where the opportunity presented itself at a reasonable cost.

[helicopper 1,050]

Underground has it own problems. Salt

And water and the combination thereof.

Great in theory but not practical in our area.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

I have property in New Hampshire and we have had power problems for a long time as well. A recent study an proposal to bury the lines in NH is estimated to be $40 Billion and take 40 years to complete with the current system in place. This does not take into account any new subdivisions or development in that 40 year period.

Edited November 3, 2011 by CHIEFPHIL

[efermann 28]

I have property in New Hampshire and we have had power problems for a long time as well. A recent study an proposal to bury the lines in NH is estimated to be $0 Billion and take 40 years to complete with the current system in place. This does not take into account any new subdivisions or development in that 40 year period.

$0 billion is awesome...do it right away! No, seriously, there is obviously a digit or two missing before the 0. The cost there (NH) or here (Westchester) is probably prohibitive. I had a conversation with my wife (village planner) and she pointed out that there's probably easement issues that the power companies will run into as well when they try to either bury the cables under the roads or under the front two feet of my lawn. The power company would need to have access at any time to dig up the road/lawns if there's ever a need to make repairs.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Buried powerlines work great, provided your house was built before 1970 and the powerlines above ground feeding it don't get taken out. We have buried powerlines at my house, at this storm has taken the power out for longer than Irene did at this point. The problem we found is that while there are rarely problems with the buried powerlines, its when the ones before it about ground get taken out, are you then SOL. And yes, I am buying a generator ASAP.

Edited November 3, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[newsbuff 286]

Buried powerlines work great, provided your house was built before 1970 and the powerlines above ground feeding it don't get taken out. We have buried powerlines at my house, at this storm has taken the power out for longer than Irene did at this point. The problem we found is that while there are rarely problems with the buried powerlines, its when the ones before it about ground get taken out, are you then SOL. And yes, I am buying a generator ASAP.

This is exactly my thoughts. My previous house, and the one I currently live in(a subdevelopment) all have buried power, but it's the 13KV outside that is feeding this, that usually is where the failure occurs.

[x635 4,066]

I'm not saying this has to be done immediately. This could be a gradual plan that takes 30-40 years to implement. It doesn't have to be all at once, nor does it have to be for everyone.

As far as the study in Florida, many reasons why it failed was because of the high water table and the high content of salt in the water. Nowadays, they make coatings that repel salt and are completly resistant to it.

North Carolina's study does not compare because of the differences between the state and Westchester.

If you look at the true cost, how much is Con Ed paying per storm? How much impact does it have on local businesses, especially resturants, which could lose thousands in spoiled food alone.

My point is to STRATEGICALLY place underground lines, especially feeders, so when there is a storm, it's faster to get power back on. There is a lot of technology and methods out there nowadays to be able to place these lines.

When they were placing fire hydrants back in the day, how much did that cost and how did they justify it?

[Bnechis 3,961]

As far as the study in Florida, many reasons why it failed was because of the high water table and the high content of salt in the water. Nowadays, they make coatings that repel salt and are completly resistant to it.

If it works so well why do we keep having repeat fires in the same ConEd underground vaults. Takes 3x longer to get the power back on and its great to see CO levels of 800ppm in multiple dwellings.

North Carolina's study does not compare because of the differences between the state and Westchester.

Thats true, its much cheaper in a right to work state to do this type of project. And the property costs are generally lower as well.

If you look at the true cost, how much is Con Ed paying per storm? How much impact does it have on local businesses, especially resturants, which could lose thousands in spoiled food alone.

A ConEd rep told me that if they buried mine it would cost me $10,000 to go 30 feet from the right of way to the corner of my house, not including the repaving of my driveway. For that money a good generator gives more back up than burying the lines.

This is not including the rate increase for the million or so per mile to get it here.

We also have a right of way between my home and the next, that runs power to 3 homes behind me. they would need to dig up 135' of driveway then 100' of private lawn, then another driveway, then another 100' of lawn. Plus about 40 trees and roots to deal with.

When they were placing fire hydrants back in the day, how much did that cost and how did they justify it?

They justified it with insurance reductions and drinkable water.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

If you really want to talk the turkey here, the Con Ed infrastructure is ancient and getting worse by the day. There are entire neighborhoods in Bronxville, where the primary and secondary lines have no insulation on them. You look at the wires; they are green. Oxidized copper. When there are electric problems, when a fuse blows (and you get some of the little remaining insulation burning, just a little flicker of a flame) and people call 9-1-1 reporting a "transformer explosion", my former dept would have to stage at the site, and sometimes wait hours for the one-person-staffed Con Ed truck to show up. By the way, when did Con Ed and it's union decide they could get away with one per rig? No safety issues there at all right?

The best reason reason I can think of to get the wires underground from a firefighting perspective, as impossible as it may be right now due to economic conditions, is the way overheads interfere with ladder truck operations. Countless times the stick gets taken out of the game in Westchester, because of overheads.

Always envious to see FDNY ladder operations on....say a Brooklyn street. Laddering with the aerial in NYC is SOP; in Westchester it's NGH (not gonna happen) in too many instances.

Edited November 4, 2011 by efdcapt115

[md2347 0]

Just wanted to make a few comments on the topic at hand here.

First, putting all feeders underground would be a tremendous endeavor to say the least. That would require any utility company to get easements from the general public (towns, property owners, etc) to allow utility companies to run these feeders under ground. There are many technologies that are out there, but you are running feeders (13KV, primary or secondary) that are in large diameter underground. I am pretty confident that the general public would not be to happy having trenches or excavations through out their neighborhoods. There were a few posts that mentioned salt or water causing problems, underground feeders are buried at certain depths that take this into effect. Meaning, that most lines are buried deep enough that this issue is not an issue (usually).

All the outages were caused by down trees, so one topic that I did not see on previous posts was tree maintenance. Now, this can be a very touchy topic because of the fact that there are so many different cities, townships, boroughs etc... The question sometimes arises, who is responsible, I personally do not know, but someone is, right? Now this passed weekend, we had a very freak storm at this time of the year. Most of the southern region of New York State and northern New Jersey foliage was still on the trees, mixed with the snow and we all know what happened. Would this topic be an issue if the storm happened during the winter, when there was no foliage, probably not.

For most of the general public power in Westchester power was restored by Wednesday/Thursday, far ahead of neighboring communities. Now there might be some areas still with out power, but it seems to be going on as accounts from tri-state new agencies. The tri-state area has a vast, intricate power grid and unfortunately when events happen the events have devastating.

[x635 4,066]

So, what, the days of major infastructure projects projects are over?

No more aquducts to be built or refubrbished? No bridges to be built or replaced? No highways to be overhauled? No upgrades to electric and communications delivery systems to meet today's technology and needs, or maintain such? No new power plants to be built? No water mains to replace or repair?

Every system has it's problems and flaws. Just because New Rochelle has been having problems in one particular area for over 10 years now, shouldn't negate a proposal.

Also, Cablevision and Verizon were able to basically restring Westchester County with fiber optic cable. Maybe if someone had some forethought, all companies could have worked together and placed all the lines underground.

What were the problems AKA excuses not to do it when the telephones poles were originally installed?

[38ff 250]

There are lots of infrastructure improvements to be done, but little cash to do them with.

Fiber optic is cheaper in the long run than copper, and can carry tons of information (voice & data) that will see us into the next 10-20 years. Splicing fiber optic is pretty easy now and much faster than splicing coaxial cable. Seems only the telephone and Cable co's are doing infrastructure improvements across the board.

[Medic5274 45]

Just wanted to make a few comments on the topic at hand here.

First, putting all feeders underground would be a tremendous endeavor to say the least. That would require any utility company to get easements from the general public (towns, property owners, etc) to allow utility companies to run these feeders under ground. There are many technologies that are out there, but you are running feeders (13KV, primary or secondary) that are in large diameter underground. I am pretty confident that the general public would not be to happy having trenches or excavations through out their neighborhoods. There were a few posts that mentioned salt or water causing problems, underground feeders are buried at certain depths that take this into effect. Meaning, that most lines are buried deep enough that this issue is not an issue (usually).

All the outages were caused by down trees, so one topic that I did not see on previous posts was tree maintenance. Now, this can be a very touchy topic because of the fact that there are so many different cities, townships, boroughs etc... The question sometimes arises, who is responsible, I personally do not know, but someone is, right? Now this passed weekend, we had a very freak storm at this time of the year. Most of the southern region of New York State and northern New Jersey foliage was still on the trees, mixed with the snow and we all know what happened. Would this topic be an issue if the storm happened during the winter, when there was no foliage, probably not.

For most of the general public power in Westchester power was restored by Wednesday/Thursday, far ahead of neighboring communities. Now there might be some areas still with out power, but it seems to be going on as accounts from tri-state new agencies. The tri-state area has a vast, intricate power grid and unfortunately when events happen the events have devastating.

The easement issue is very difficult to get around as you have stated. No one is going to want to allow an easement through their property or under it. Even though feeders can be direct buried at a depth to protect them from salt and water the issue is at the mahole. All splices need to be made in manholes for access issues. This is very problematic during the salt application season. While cable is heavier today and better protected the splices are very susceptible to salt and water damage. Look at what happens in NYC after every snow storm. Con Edison is running from one manhole fire to another.

The underground system is more reliable but very difficult to repair when there is a problem. The Con Edison undergound system in NYC is a network system meaning there are multiple feeders feeding a particular grid or neighborhood. You could lose 3,4, or more feeders into one network without cutomer impact due to the ability of other feeders picking up the slack for the lost feeders. The overhead system for the most part is a radial system with one feeder into a network or neighborhood. If the wire comes down the power goes out without the ability to switch customers over to a different feeder. To have a really reliable underground system it needs to be a network system. If you just bury the one radial cable serving a network and then lose that feeder the repair times would be even longer than they are now.

Underground system are also very susceptible to system failures and burnout during the summer heat season due to the inability to vent heat out of the manholes. Con Edison probably has more problems during the summer than they do during the winter snow storms because of the extra demand placed on the system for the air conditioning load. This is not a problem in Westchester but very prevelant in NYC. Replacing a feeder out from heat or fire damage can take 16-24 hours to repair so underground repairs take two to three times as long to repair as overhead repairs. (This is actual on-scene repair time and does not include how long it takes to respond to the location during a storm)

The real answer here is trim trimming. Areas in the county that have had significant tree trimming have not been hit as hard since Con Edison started their comprehensive tree trimming program several years ago. The problem with that is no one wants the tree in front of their house trimmed. They can't have it both ways and complain about their house service coming down because they did not want any tree trimming done.

[ny10570 745]

The American Society of Civil engineers commissioned a study of America's infrastructure a couple years ago that put the bill at over $2 Trillion in the next 5 years to just catch up to the deterioration of our infrastructure. Plugging leaking water supplies, repairing crumbling bridges and roadways, replacing outdated transit systems, stopping sewage system overflows, etc. That doesn't cover the cost of continued maintenance or expansion. Of much greater issue for our electrical grid is on the generation/transmission end. Distribution is relatively up to date.

Data is much cheaper to bury and has a much higher profit margin. Nothing here is saying power lines cannot be buried. The issue is money. People will pay a premium for digital internet connections rather than the same old dial up. Who is willing to pay twice as much for the same electric service? People will not pay a 100% increase in the electric bills just to bury their power lines. How do you propose the utilities pay the tab? If they could save $1 on storm losses by burying the lines, they'd be buried already.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The American Society of Civil engineers commissioned a study of America's infrastructure a couple years ago that put the bill at over $2 Trillion in the next 5 years to just catch up to the deterioration of our infrastructure. Plugging leaking water supplies, repairing crumbling bridges and roadways, replacing outdated transit systems, stopping sewage system overflows, etc.

The Federal Gov't made the choice to put the money that could be used for infrastructure projects in America, into other projects in Afghanistan and Iraq. As long as the Feds priorities are out of order, we here at home, the taxpayers footing the bills, will also get the short end of the stick; meaning no real improvements here, continued deterioration of the infrastructure, amassing debt that our great-grandchildren will be paying for, and it's looking more and more likely that the debasement of our currency is going to continue to put millions of Americans into poverty.

These private companies that take their profits and run with them; the ones who control the electric systems, the water systems, the communication systems, I don't think we can expect them to invest enough to make significant improvements in those systems. Rather, they will continue to provide simple patches over larger and larger gaping holes in a crumbling American infrastructure. Although the financial incentive has been there for them to build out the mobile telecommunication infrastructure, and upgrade the fiber optic networks in areas that are profitable enough. If they can't foresee enough profit, in rural areas, less populated areas, they don't make those investments.

When one company bought my cell phone provider a few years ago, they promised these upgrades were going to happen. I'd been all around the country with my Nextel, and I could tell you where and in which states I was going to get service or not. Cross country? Service ended west of Des Moines, Iowa, and picked up again in Cor-de-Laine Idaho. Years later, after Nextel was cannibalized? Same thing. No improvements. It's totally ironic that mobile phones work great along the Interstates on the Eastern Seaboard, but head east off I-95 into rural South Carolina.....no signal until you get to the coast. That was Nextel; and still is. No promised improvements. I'm sorry I'm getting off topic.

[Bnechis 3,961]

That was Nextel; and still is. No promised improvements. I'm sorry I'm getting off topic.

To get you back on topic, I suggest you bury your phone, the service cant get any worst.

[x635 4,066]

Just an interesting side read....the dangers of tree trimming...

http://www.lohud.com/article/20111105/NEWS01/111050353/Tree-trimming-injuries?odyssey=mod|mostview

[Medic442 15]

Underground has it own problems. Salt

Why salt. They have power lines underground in Buffalo? Less loss of power. As per family. Big change over from the Ice storms.

[helicopper 1,050]

Why salt. They have power lines underground in Buffalo? Less loss of power. As per family. Big change over from the Ice storms.

Your post is a little cryptic but if you're suggesting that Buffalo's power lines are underground, I would point to 2006 when they had an October storm not unlike ours this year and suffered many of the same affects. Major power outages, trees and wires down, and roads blocked in the City of Buffalo and surrounding Erie County.