City of Newburgh (Orange) - 3rd Alarm Fire 10-23-2011 Discussion

[JetPhoto 626]

I was listening to the city of Newburgh fire last night and found it interesting that Orange County Car 36-13 placed the fire under control but 30 - 45 minutes later the Newburgh IC placed the fire under control with his dispatcher.

Maybe some OC guys can answer why a county car can declare an incident under control before the home departments IC?

[v85 212]

Just a guess, but maybe the county car putting the incident UC with the county meant that no more mutual aid was needed, or the fire was extinguished, but the Newburgh Fire Chief waited until overhaul ops were complete too.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Sorry to go away from the topic but does anyone have any info on the house? I heard from a member on this site that he remembers it possibly being housing for Mount Saint Mary College.

[50-65 205]

Sorry to go away from the topic but does anyone have any info on the house? I heard from a member on this site that he remembers it possibly being housing for Mount Saint Mary College.

From what I saw last night, definitely NOT MSMC students living there.

[50-65 205]

I was listening to the city of Newburgh fire last night and found it interesting that Orange County Car 36-13 placed the fire under control but 30 - 45 minutes later the Newburgh IC placed the fire under control with his dispatcher.

Maybe some OC guys can answer why a county car can declare an incident under control before the home departments IC?

Just a guess that maybe NFD IC was busy with a few other things and that's why? I really don't know.

There were about 75 FF's on scene. NFD, New Windsor, Vails Gate, Cornwall, Good Will, Air Guard, plus stand-by companies.

MLSS also had 2 ALS units and rehab unit on scene.

[billy98988 107]

it was a multiple family dwelling.

all of the occupants appeared to be older and not students of MSMC.

the newer dorms of the college overlooked the incident.

[NWFDMedic 58]

I was listening to the city of Newburgh fire last night and found it interesting that Orange County Car 36-13 placed the fire under control but 30 - 45 minutes later the Newburgh IC placed the fire under control with his dispatcher.

Maybe some OC guys can answer why a county car can declare an incident under control before the home departments IC?

County cars have no such authority. However, specifically when dealing with NFD, they never communicate with county at all. It has become common practice for the county cars to give their interpretations of updates from the scene to county.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Link to News12 video:

http://www.news12.com/index.jsp

Link to YNN video:

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content/top_stories/561470/newburgh-apartment-building-damaged-in-fire/

Edited October 24, 2011 by BFD1054

[PFDRes47cue 653]

In an attempt to give the most accurate I/A possible, can someone send me a PM or post in this thread any apparatus that were left out of my I/A please. Also, if someone has exposure info that would be nice to add as well.

Nice work by all departments involved.

Thanks in advance,

Madison

[Guest elye]

I was listening to the city of Newburgh fire last night and found it interesting that Orange County Car 36-13 placed the fire under control but 30 - 45 minutes later the Newburgh IC placed the fire under control with his dispatcher.

Maybe some OC guys can answer why a county car can declare an incident under control before the home departments IC?

this is because that 36-13 is the cmd on scene so he called it under control but newburgh has it own dispatch

[v85 212]

I thought county cars were never "in command", there job was to assist the fire chief on scene, not take over for him.

[BFD1054 1,552]

this is because that 36-13 is the cmd on scene so he called it under control but newburgh has it own dispatch

I thought county cars were never "in command", there job was to assist the fire chief on scene, not take over for him.

elye...im going to have to respectfully disagree and go with Vinny on this one.

The County Coordinator assists with mutual-aid. NFD definatley had command and had several chiefs on scene.

[Newburgher 241]

this is because that 36-13 is the cmd on scene so he called it under control but newburgh has it own dispatch

If "cmd" stands for Command, I don't think so. We can't hear what the county radio traffic is, so I don't know how long before Car 1 gave his update. The fire isn't under control in Newburgh, until Newburgh command, not the county, declare the fire under control.

[INIT915 1,119]

However, specifically when dealing with NFD, they never communicate with county at all. It has become common practice for the county cars to give their interpretations of updates from the scene to county.

Am I reading this correctly in that NFD Commanders and County Coordinators have an antagonistic relationship? When you say, "interpretations of updates from the scene", I envision them standing behind the police tape, "guessing" whats going on and giving updates accordingly.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Am I reading this correctly in that NFD Commanders and County Coordinators have an antagonistic relationship? When you say, "interpretations of updates from the scene", I envision them standing behind the police tape, "guessing" whats going on and giving updates accordingly.

No, not at all. NFD communicates primarily through their dispatch for incidents in their city. The coordinator is usually standing right next to the incident commander and provides coordination between the IC and the volunteer departments coming into the city. Communication during city incidents can sometimes be a nightmare. The county is primarily VHF Low Band, NFD is VHF high band, and most of the volunteer departments are on UHF (and one is on 800 still, I believe). My guess (and this is only a guess, as I was in Philadelphia when the fire occurred) is that county requested an update based on their timer notifications, 36-13 probably reported that for the purpose of requesting additional mutual aid, they had the scene under control with the resources present. As we all know, this is different than declaring a fire "under control".

The county coordinators play an invaluable role in coordinating resources and communicating with incoming mutual aid and Orange 911. If you listen to the county side of incidents in the City of Newburgh, you may get the impression that they are running the incident, mainly because they are the primary source of contact for Orange 911 at the scene. As confusing as it may seem, it actually works well as it allows NFD command to do what they are supposed to do, manage the incident. I've operated beside NFD at many an incident over the past 20 years as a firefighter, EMS responder, and fire officer. I have never experienced any type of adversarial relationship with their command on the scene of an incident. They have only one goal and that is to manage the incident and they do it well with much less manpower than some other career departments.

[lad12derff 283]

Just a little off topic here but I ended up in Newburgh Sunday morning after getting bad directions to my sons soccer game in New Windsor and ended up at the fire house @ Broadway and 217?. Stopped to ask the Brothers for some directions and they were closed. Was this house shut down? I do remember protesting with the 5th district last winter for our brothers and thought they had "won the battle". Whats the story up there? Coulda used that company that night!!!!!

[Newburgher 241]

Just a little off topic here but I ended up in Newburgh Sunday morning after getting bad directions to my sons soccer game in New Windsor and ended up at the fire house @ Broadway and 217?. Stopped to ask the Brothers for some directions and they were closed. Was this house shut down? I do remember protesting with the 5th district last winter for our brothers and thought they had "won the battle". Whats the story up there? Coulda used that company that night!!!!!

492 Broadway, near West Street. We are open for business as usual! Of course, all you guys that came out to support us helped keep it that way! Must have been out on a run.

[INIT915 1,119]

No, not at all. NFD communicates primarily through their dispatch for incidents in their city. The coordinator is usually standing right next to the incident commander and provides coordination between the IC and the volunteer departments coming into the city. Communication during city incidents can sometimes be a nightmare. The county is primarily VHF Low Band, NFD is VHF high band, and most of the volunteer departments are on UHF (and one is on 800 still, I believe). My guess (and this is only a guess, as I was in Philadelphia when the fire occurred) is that county requested an update based on their timer notifications, 36-13 probably reported that for the purpose of requesting additional mutual aid, they had the scene under control with the resources present. As we all know, this is different than declaring a fire "under control".

The county coordinators play an invaluable role in coordinating resources and communicating with incoming mutual aid and Orange 911. If you listen to the county side of incidents in the City of Newburgh, you may get the impression that they are running the incident, mainly because they are the primary source of contact for Orange 911 at the scene. As confusing as it may seem, it actually works well as it allows NFD command to do what they are supposed to do, manage the incident. I've operated beside NFD at many an incident over the past 20 years as a firefighter, EMS responder, and fire officer. I have never experienced any type of adversarial relationship with their command on the scene of an incident. They have only one goal and that is to manage the incident and they do it well with much less manpower than some other career departments.

Thanks, that makes sense.

[Guest mhd381]

i was dispatching this fire. if my memory serves me correctly, it was a 3 story multi-floor group home. i believe a total of 13 people lived there. as for 36 car 13, he act's as command's liaison to orange county fire control in most situations. as far as i remember, the fire was placed under control by 36-13 per commands recommendation. also, newburgh's own dispatcher by have been told later that it was under control again due to the fact that on a third alarm assignment, all firefighters are required to return to work, and may have been to stop having more man power return to the scene and rather stand by in quarters. also, all equipment in orange county has low band radio's capable of contacting orange 911 on 46.16 regardless of primary use of vhf, uhf, or 800. at multiple points during this fire, newburgh car 4 contacted us directly to provide instructions for middle hope's in coming engine. middle hope is the only primary agency on 800 but they do have low bands. other 800 use are the coordinators, haz mat, fort montgomery and highland falls but seldom do they use it.