The Moral Background Of Our Chiefs And Commisioners

[FF402 133]

Do you consider the moral and ethical background of Chiefs and Commisioners when you elect them, even though their conduct was not while "on duty"?

I know of one department that has a Commisioner who, at the time was a Chief, was the subject of a Federal investigation regarding kiddy p*** charges, along with his friend who was also a Chief. It was well known amongst the department, but no one really said anything because it was embarrasing for two high profile members. I find it outrageous that a department or it's membership could actually let someone like this set policies for their department.

Is that someone we want representing our department(s)? What if this ever came out in public during a Commisioners meeting or election? Could the credibility or charachter of that elected official come back to haunt them?

What would you do?

[sympathomedic 383]

The person in question was never (NEVER) charged. I understand he cooperated fully and was never a target of this investigation. Do you know what your friends are up to at all times? I think that if this happened to you (a friend getting in trouble) and it prevented you from attaining a goal, you would feel that you were being blamed for something you had nothing to do with. And you would be right.

[newsbuff 286]

Having Fire Commissioners in a combo department that are also Ex-Volunteer Chiefs of that same department... Talk about conflict of interest... Hire more career firefighters because they are short-staffed, but that in turn takes away from what you do in your spare time, and what many of your friends do. Think that's not a problem?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

What about the entire public safety sector? How many future FF are investigated for ONLY Arson history??

That, and if there is no history, look how many FF arsonist there end up being!!! You can investigate everyone's history as much as you want, but it seems that only the specifics apply to the fire service, a history of arson.

Sure people have become valuable assets to the public safety sector, even after having a marred past. There are also people out there with spotless pasts who end up having TERRIBLE 'careers' in their service (career meaning only their time spent, not saying a paid member of an organization).

[FF402 133]

The person in question was never (NEVER) charged.

I looked for this thread all day, couldn't find it.

Let's not make this specific to one person or commisioner or incident, as this is not meant to be slanderous or an attack. Whichever case you speak of is probaly not the same as mine. I merely presented a scenario I was familiar with for discussional purposes only.

But let's say the person you speak of was guilty but never charged? Or used an "escape" in the legal system? What would that say about that particular leader if it was to come out? And, if requested, should it be public knowledge? Especially if the charge is asssociated with someone who may provide fire education and firehouse tours to children? If it were to come out, what would parents think?

[firebuff860 54]

If it was a "Federal Investigation" I am sure people in the community knew about it. If charged, it would definitely be public info, regardless if he used an escape(?) to get out of it. If a Dept knowingly has a person who is involved in that and not under investigation, they should move swiftly to make him an ex member and notify the proper authorities.

[38ff 250]

NYS says you can legally be a Fire District Commissioner as long as you havent been CONVICTED of a felony. (as well as live in the district, be registered to vote, etc) If you are convicted of a felony while a commissioner, you will be removed from that position.

[sympathomedic 383]

I forgot the name of the NYS assemnlyman from Queens who hit his girlfriend in the face with a glass and was charged and ended up either resigning or getting tossed out. He was a former NYC PD officer collecting a 3/4 disability pension due to a psychological condition. Yet the folks in his district elected him to NYS office. Not 100% the same issue, but it goes to show you who gets elected.

If a guy is investigated and not charged, he cleared a hurdle many guys probably couldn't. And he knows that knock could come any time, so he likely, IMHO, treads a little more carefully than most.

[FirNaTine 370]

No different then Politicians who get caught up in some type of scandal and then get re-elected. Look at Washington DC and MT.Vernon, NY. recently. God help that City! It's ashame but there seems to be a growing trend of many in Society who are lacking morals and nobody holds anybody accountable anymore. They all turn a blind eye to it, especially if that person in question is a good friend or has rewarded others in some way.

Edited October 6, 2011 by FirNaTine

[x129K 1,393]

Beggars can't be choosers...right?

[sympathomedic 383]

Do you consider the moral and ethical background of Chiefs and Commisioners when you elect them, even though their conduct was not while "on duty"?

I know of one department that has a Commisioner who, at the time was a Chief, was the subject of a Federal investigation regarding kiddy p*** charges, along with his friend who was also a Chief. It was well known amongst the department, but no one really said anything because it was embarrasing for two high profile members. I find it outrageous that a department or it's membership could actually let someone like this set policies for their department.

Is that someone we want representing our department(s)? What if this ever came out in public during a Commisioners meeting or election? Could the credibility or charachter of that elected official come back to haunt them?

What would you do?

They are voters, Dan, not beggars. Many of these little noticed elections have only a single candidate. I believe in NYS fire commissioners cannot be "paid" but they can vote to give themselves some perks- cell phones, lap tops, badges, the use of cars, secretarial services, and lots of free-bees heaped on them by vendors trying to get their business. But basically you are working for free. I think I heard that commissioners in paid/combo depts can opt in to the health plan they have for their paid staff. THAT can be a BIG benefit for a five year term.

In terms of making a Fire District vote choice based on a candidates moral make up, I know a country that a few years ago re- elected a president that had a well publicized affair while in office. The country's initials are USA.

[abaduck 123]

But let's say the person you speak of was guilty but never charged? Or used an "escape" in the legal system? What would that say about that particular leader if it was to come out? And, if requested, should it be public knowledge? Especially if the charge is asssociated with someone who may provide fire education and firehouse tours to children? If it were to come out, what would parents think?

In this country you are 100% INNOCENT until convicted by a jury. 'guilty but never charged' is an oxymoron. That's the way it is. Like democracy itself, it's sometimes a lousy system - but it's FAR better than any of the alternatives. What do you want? Mob rule? Conviction by accusation? Star chamber? Lynching?

Mike

[16fire5 693]

A career member of a fire district can not be a commissioner of the fire district they work in in NYS. Apparently many volunteers do even though they receive retirement benifits. If we truly want impartial members serving they should not be district employees and volunteer firefighters are employees of the district.

Edited October 12, 2011 by jack10562

[Bnechis 3,961]

A career member of a fire district can not be a commissioner of the fire district they work in in NYS. Apparently many volunteers do even though they receive retirement benifits. If we truly want impartial members serving they should not be district employees and volunteer firefighters are employees of the district.

Interesting. I never considered the volunteer status. Now lets take it one more step the NYS Dept. of Labor classifies volunteers firefighters as "employees" even if the do not get retirement or other benefits. This is because they get workers comp. I have been told by the DOL that this has been challenged in court and upheld by the courts (but I do not know what case, to look up).

[helicopper 1,050]

MODERATOR NOTE: Discussing "hypothetical" situations is fine but some of the "case descriptions" are becoming extremely detailed and moving closer to the possibility of identifying a person and/or agency. On behalf of the staff, I must caution everyone not to post anything that identifies someone specifically or makes unsubstantiated accusations (if a person is not convicted, the allegations are unsubstantiated).

Any posts that identify a specific person and are not based on public information regarding a conviction will be deleted immediately.

[ex-commish 490]

A career member of a fire district can not be a commissioner of the fire district they work in in NYS. Apparently many volunteers do even though they receive retirement benifits. If we truly want impartial members serving they should not be district employees and volunteer firefighters are employees of the district.

I am curious to know what law this comes from. Thank you.

[16fire5 693]

I am curious to know what law this comes from. Thank you.

I'm pretty sure it is an opinion and not a law. I'm looking for it.

[ex-commish 490]

I'm pretty sure it is an opinion and not a law. I'm looking for it.

Thank you. So far all I have seen in law was you can not be a chief or asst chief and be a commissioner.

[Chief21 8]

Well getting out of the relm of legal issues. How about back to the ideas of moral.

You have a member who is nothing but trouble in the department.

This member is written up on multiple occassions, caused problems on training grounds, at fire scenes, at social functions.

Gets kicked out of the department and transfers to another department.

Now they get all their buddies together and in december and they get elected as a commissioner.

All of a sudden this thorn in the department now continues their antics but now has overall control of the department.

Moral is in the crapper and your suck with this person for 5 years.

What can a department do?

[sympathomedic 383]

When doing some research a few years back, the NYS OFPC a wealth of info, told me that only the Governor can remove a fire commissioner. Since then, and perhaps after a law change, I have been told that a commissioner that misses too many meetings can be removed, or it happens by itself under that circumstance. There is also the NYS association of Fire Districts that is also very open and willing to share info. In the last election they corrected several areas of mis-information I was given by my District's office staff.

[Chief21 8]

sympathomedic...

what was some of this mis-information that was corrected?

Its interesting when a commissioner feeds you mis information to prevent any action against them.

perhaps you can pm me?

[16fire5 693]

Guys on this page there are the numerous opinions of the NYS attorney general in relation to Compatibility of Office. They make it clear that commissioners can't be employees too.

http://www.ag.ny.gov/bureaus/appeals_opinions/opinions/indexsub.html

[ex-commish 490]

With the understanding that I am not a lawyer and perhaps there are other parts of the law or opinions that would contradict but here is what I found which was referenced from an attorney general's opinion regarding the compatability of a fire commissioner and a paid mechanic employed by the fire district...

Town law Section 175: . Every fire district commissioner, treasurer and secretary must at

the time of his election or appointment and throughout his term of

office be a resident of such fire district. Membership in a volunteer

fire company shall not disqualify any such fire district commissioner,

treasurer or secretary. A person who has been convicted of arson in any

degree shall not be eligible for election or appointment to the office

of fire district commissioner, treasurer or secretary. Any fire district

commissioner, treasurer or secretary who is convicted of arson in any

degree during his term of office shall be disqualified from completing

such term of office.

[38ff 250]

One person is not "in charge" of the board. Even if one "bad apple" gets elected by the voters of the district, he still only has 20% of the vote.(assuming there are 5 commissioners on the board) He would need to get 2 others to agree with whatever motion he/she makes before it can pass.

The fire dept does not "control" who gets elected. The voters of the district do.

If someone wants to check on the laws of Fire Districts, I'd suggest they buy the following book.

http://www.jamespublishing.com/books/nyfd.htm

It is updated yearly with all the newly added/changed laws. The book takes all the laws and breaks them down into easily understood language, includes dates that legal notices need to be in by, other important dates, ect. In my opinion, every commissioner should have one, as well as anyone who really wants to know what the laws are in an understandable format.

The NYS Association of Fire Districts is a wealth of knowledge also, and the fall meeting is coming up at the end of this month in Ellenville. Should be an informative time as it has been in the past. Last meeting's Key Note speaker was Chief Billy Goldfeder. I also belive that all commissioners (or atleast one representative from each District) should attend these meetings. New laws and changes are discussed, topics relating to legal, budget, audits, GML, and other such matters as well as an attorneys panel where you can ask any question you have. If your district is not a member of the association, or your district is and their rep isnt going, I'd ask why.

Edited October 12, 2011 by 38ff

[ex-commish 490]

The NYS Association of Fire Districts is a wealth of knowledge also, and the fall meeting is coming up at the end of this month in Ellenville. Should be an informative time as it has been in the past. Last meeting's Key Note speaker was Chief Billy Goldfeder. I also belive that all commissioners (or atleast one representative from each District) should attend these meetings. New laws and changes are discussed, topics relating to legal, budget, audits, GML, and other such matters as well as an attorneys panel where you can ask any question you have. If your district is not a member of the association, or your district is and their rep isnt going, I'd ask why.

I look forward to attennding. Will be my first one.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The fire dept does not "control" who gets elected. The voters of the district do.

While this is technically true, in most districts the majority of the voters who show up to vote are FD members & family members of those FD members.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

While this is technically true, in most districts the majority of the voters who show up to vote are FD members & family members of those FD members.

Have to say I'm glad you put "most" in your answer Capt. I specifically remember one year in my former district where nearly 5,000 voters turned out for a Commissioners Election, and a Referendum item.

[38ff 250]

It is sad that taxpayers dont pay much attention to fire districts in general and to the election of the commissioners.

Seems all they want to know is when 911 is called, the Big Red Truck comes quickly and takes care of the situation.