Article from Yorktown fire (10/3/11)

[JohnnyOV 2]

That's exactly what my guys did for your fire. By the time I got across town to our Station #2, T10 was on the road w/ 2 guys and E119 was pulling off the ramp with 8 guys. Since your department implemented the FAST response on the initial dispatches, many of us have somewhat "tuned" our ears to listen for you.

I had guys calling me the second you got dispatched asking which of our resources are on that box assignment, and they started assembling.

Hope we got there quick enough.

I wasn't involved in the supply or relay, but from what I could tell, it was quite impressive. We came out of the structure and you guys were walking up. Seemed like you guys were on the road the movement you were dispatched.

PS - let me know if you guys come across one of our halligans...

Yorktown has be thinking of changing our mascot to the Hamburglar for a while now..... just kidding. Notice went out this morning asking guys to keep an eye open for it.

Edited October 5, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[JohnnyOV 2]

Newsbuff, you're labed as an enthusiast... have you ever actually participated in any of the activities you've mentioned? If you have never operated in a tanker shuttle, or been on a hose line trying to put a 50% involved fire out from the interior, its going to be very hard for you to understand how labor intensive this type of operation is. It is no fault of your own, other then that you haven't experienced it first hand, and I do not hold that against you.

Extraordinary meaning a total of nine departments being called for a single fire. Granted three were only for tanker operations, but in this case, every tanker from Just into the Putnam Line, to Ossining was called to this scene.

The water and apparatus were needed. 3000 gallon ponds get used very quickly when you're operating long streches of LDH, and 3 hand lines and a blitz gun are being utilized.

I don't know about your department, but for most, when there is a fire, all available manpower is assigned, and being used for that specific operation. You know how long it takes to pack up an engine, and get it back into service. I can't possibly see how one could send manpower and apparatus mutual aid, when there is a large assignment going on in their home district. Priority falls on your home territory, that's what the taxpayers pay for.

I'm not following. No other large operations, or even any other operations were occurring from any of the departments called for Yorktown's fire that I am aware of. And if there was before Yorktown's fire, we would have been pulling from other resources and attempting to not strain other departments.

As someone mentioned earlier, what if a neighboring department that has water source issues had a fire at the same time, which required tanker operations? One fire essentially stripped all of Northern Westchester(excluding out east) of their "water on wheels." And yes, I do understand that we could sit here and "what if" all day, but I put this in as it is not a far stretch, and could very well happen at any time.

You're placing a lose-lose statement posed to us here... Are you suggesting that Yorktown has 5 engines and 5 tankers? If so, please, run for commissioner and tell the town you want to purchase 4 more tankers and 3 more engines... You'll be quite loved by our residents.

edit: If not, what do you suggest we do? Not enough water and you lose the house, or have an abundance of apparatus for your own district, with no place to put them unless you build more firehouses....

I do know that the time for this was accurate), as I have friends in Mohegan that gave me the rundown as it was happening. I also know that this is the a** end of everywhere, as it is across the reservoir, but only 2 miles from the Mohegan Border. Should it still take you 28 minutes to get just 2 miles(albeit windy roads) outside of your district? That being said, Mohegan had to be retoned for manpower, which signifies a delayed response. Another six minutes after the retone, they were out the door. You said your department(along with when Yorktown has to go FAST, as JohnnyOV said) was already "pre-planning" before you were even called. I applaud you on that and think it is a model that many others should use, so it doesn't create the problem that I am talking about.

This is not on the other end of the revervoir, its on the north side, about a 1/2 mile up from Rt 129 and the Croton boarder. Its 7 miles from LMFD Sta 1, with a travel time of 17 minutes. Dispatch to responding was 10 minutes on the dot, so their travel time was spot on.

I could be wrong, but I think I heard radio traffic stating a person may still be inside. If there's a chance someone is inside, I believe the OSHA 2 in / 2 out rule is not expected to be adhered to - and according to said rule, your apparatus operators may count as your "two out." When we arrived, there was at least 10-12 members of the YHFD on location, so I am sure all of them didn't go inside initially.

Yes, that is what I have heard from others and seen on here too. I may have spoken to hastily on this, and understand the circumstances they were presented with. I am by no means an expert on the OSHA rule of 2 in/2 out, therefore I will not comment.

Reports from both the neighbors and the PD on location was that the homeowner was still inside. The neighbors were very adamant about this, and 100% positive at the time she was home and had not come outside. This was relayed to all incoming units. We attempted to enter the structure through the only viable part left that could sustain any life, and backed out when conditions dictated us to do so. Even if there was no life hazard, there were 3 members inside, and about 12-20 guys outside packed up, ready to drop what they were doing to effect a rescue.

Edited October 5, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[JohnnyOV 2]

Also, nothing that is being said here I am taking personally... I actually welcome all discussion as we can only improve our operations. There will be a post incident debrief in our department and I'm sure there will be plenty to talk about on how we could have improved.

[newsbuff 286]

Newsbuff, you're labed as an enthusiast... have you ever actually participated in any of the activities you've mentioned? If you have never operated in a tanker shuttle, or been on a hose line trying to put a 50% involved fire out from the interior, its going to be very hard for you to understand how labor intensive this type of operation is. It is no fault of your own, other then that you haven't experienced it first hand, and I do not hold that against you.

I have been involved with interior operations, but yes, tankers are a whole different thing to me.

The water and apparatus were needed. 3000 gallon ponds get used very quickly when you're operating long streches of LDH, and 3 hand lines and a blitz gun are being utilized.

True

I'm not following. No other large operations, or even any other operations were occurring from any of the departments called for Yorktown's fire that I am aware of. And if there was before Yorktown's fire, we would have been pulling from other resources and attempting to not strain other departments.

My comment was in reply to the "what if" statement I put out there. Maybe I misread the question

You're placing a lose-lose statement posed to us here... Are you suggesting that Yorktown has 5 engines and 5 tankers? If so, please, run for commissioner and tell the town you want to purchase 4 more tankers and 3 more engines... You'll be quite loved by our residents.

edit: If not, what do you suggest we do? Not enough water and you lose the house, or have an abundance of apparatus for your own district, with no place to put them unless you build more firehouses....

Coming back to the original statement. Mohegan's Furnace Woods Station is 4 miles (7 minutes driving time) from where this all took place. Was any apparatus taken from there? No, because it is a different district. This is a textbook example of the further firehouse being called first, just because of how the district lines are. YHFD station 1 is 5.5 miles, with a drive time of 15 minutes. YHFD station two, also 5.5 miles, 15 minutes. Even Croton's Grand Street firehouse, where there is an engine stationed, is closer than Yorktown's, at 4.6 miles(11 minutes). (Yes, I know the tanker is at Washington Engine).

This is not on the other end of the revervoir, its on the north side, about a 1/2 mile up from Rt 129 and the Croton boarder. Its 7 miles from LMFD Sta 1, with a travel time of 17 minutes. Dispatch to responding was 10 minutes on the dot, so their travel time was spot on.

My apologies, I wrote too quickly and used the "other side" of the reservoir in relationship to where I am. No foul intended.

But for a FASTeam response to be 10 minutes assembly time? I think that is WAY too slow. But I may be wrong...

Reports from both the neighbors and the PD on location was that the homeowner was still inside. The neighbors were very adamant about this, and 100% positive at the time she was home and had not come outside. This was relayed to all incoming units. We attempted to enter the structure through the only viable part left that could sustain any life, and backed out when conditions dictated us to do so. Even if there was no life hazard, there were 3 members inside, and about 12-20 guys outside packed up, ready to drop what they were doing to effect a rescue.

I understand this and no longer have an issue with this.

Again, I don't mean to harm, or put anyone off.

Edited October 5, 2011 by newsbuff

[TRUCK6018 50]

Regarding the tanker op's:

To those not familiar with the operations, think of this. If you are drafting from a 3,000 gallon portable pond @ 1,500 gpm the capacity is only going to last 2 minutes (actually less considering you won't get the last bit of water). For the sake of argument if I'm off on the water flow and your are only flowing 750 gpm, it will only last 4 minutes. My point is it's not going to last long.

This is why you want too many tankers. You want them to be waiting in line to dump. It's better to have one or two in line waiting to dump than to not having one in sight.

Additionally, as an insurance policy you should have an alternate fill site for the tankers with an engine ready to fill, when possible (yes, requiring an additional piece of apparatus). with large volume operations you will get more water to the fire this way. Also, if something happens that suspends operations at one of the fill sites, you still have some water getting to the fire.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Coming back to the original statement. Mohegan's Furnace Woods Station is 4 miles (7 minutes driving time) from where this all took place. Was any apparatus taken from there? No, because it is a different district. This is a textbook example of the further firehouse being called first, just because of how the district lines are. YHFD station 1 is 5.5 miles, with a drive time of 15 minutes. YHFD station two, also 5.5 miles, 15 minutes. Even Croton's Grand Street firehouse, where there is an engine stationed, is closer than Yorktown's, at 4.6 miles(11 minutes). (Yes, I know the tanker is at Washington Engine).

your 15 minute response time is off. It took 8 minutes for 273 to arrive on location after initial dispatch, and 272, arrived about 30 seconds later. The roads LMFD would have had to take are single lane roads, and extremely windy. Their travel time probably would have pushed 15 minutes.

edit: I don't know why the text is bold, and I cannot get rid of it.....

Edited October 5, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[newsbuff 286]

your 15 minute response time is off. It took 8 minutes for 273 to arrive on location after initial dispatch, and 272, arrived about 30 seconds later. The roads LMFD would have had to take are single lane roads, and extremely windy. Their travel time probably would have pushed 15 minutes.

Well in this case, I am incorrect about the drive time from YHQ. But Croton Ave(of which I live off of), Hunterbrook Road, and Baptist Church Road are not single lane roads(only around one blind corner), and I have seen many a LMFD engine drive on, when either responding around the reservoir, or going to a crash at the bottom of Croton Ave and Baptist Church Road.(very steep hill). But I am going to leave it at this. We could argue this element all day, and I just would prefer not to.

Edited October 5, 2011 by newsbuff

[Bnechis 3,961]

Tradition Each company needs it's own piece ...

Then give them each a tanker

Of course, if you are good for 2 incidents, what if the 3rd happens? Do you plan for the 100 year flood, or the 500 year flood, or the 1000 year flood? What's your level of risk you are willing to accept? And how much do you want to pay to mitigate that risk? (Seems very similar to the Somers thread).

My point was you might not even be good for 2 fires. If 7 of the tankers are from the West & 7 from the East, all west ones are committed, the east ones may be too far or if they are sent to cover, there wont be enough left in the east or in the west.

Yes you can what if this to death, but the departments that collectivly own 14 tankers also own 46 engine companies. It appears then that with 46 engine companies they would be able to cover more than 2 fires, but without enough water........we all know what will happen. The taxpayers have collectivly invested approximatly $21 million in these engine companies (assuming a fully equipped engine costs $450,000)and not including maintenance, insurance, fuel, housing, etc. and they would be stretch to handle more than 2 fires?

I don't know the answer; but if we have 14 tankers in Westchester, how many are in Putnam County - or in Connecticut to respond to that 2nd or 3rd incident?

Even if we doubled the numbers, we are talking a huge area to cover and with all of those units covering 2 1/2 counties and 100's of thousands of properties, the chance of 2 or 3 fires is pretty good.

[BBBMF 158]

On the topic of consolidation, manpower issues, lack of resources, and abuse of mutual aid...why is it that YHFD wants to build a substation near a Millwood firehouse when they have 4 engines and only two got out for a confirmed fire??? So lets construct a new building with apparatus so nobody can get those rigs out either??? If they were able to respond, Croton and Millwood would only have needed to send a tanker each :-/

[Tanker 10eng 140]

When you really think about it, there should of been at least one additional engine on this job, ... for a second fill site for the Tankers... one of the general rules of thumb I have learned, ( 3 tankers can work off of 1 fill site, 4 - 6 tankers should have 2 fill sites. ) so with this in mind, there should of been another engine on the list...

* newsbuff - tell you what, you start on 1 side of BCR and I'll come in from the other end with T 10 and you tell me its really a 2 lane road...

* johnnyov - your incident debriefing, it might be helpful to invite some of the key members of the different areas of this call... ( the fill site, tanker off load site, and fire ground ) so that you can see points from different views... plus, I am sure its not going to be the last time we work together, so it could help get us all on the same page or provide us with a different method of operating...

* jflynn - on several other topics you have mentioned, that you do not know much about tanker operations, which is understandable, and if you ever wish to attend on of the Croton / Yorktown / Millwood yearly tanker drills, we would love to have you there and open up to any ideas you may have... let me know and I will gladly email you when we do our next...

* bnechis - you did attend our last CYM tanker drill and you did bring up some good points, one thing I took from your comments, lead Croton to get a 5 inch gated Wye, and because the tanker site was on a hill side, with no level areas near by, we tossed the ponds on the side of the road and went with the gated Wye and had 2 tankers nurse to the relay pumper, which worked out great.. thanks Barry.

* 99subi - most of the tankers in this area carry around 3000 gallons...

- as far as the worries about there being 100 FF on this job, WOW thats great... I know every single resident I spoke with, who were trying to get home or out for some reason we gald so many people were there to help out... I think it says allot of the system up here in Northen Westchester... it may not be the best, but it does work.

....... AND YORKTOWN, THIS DID NOT COUNT AS YOUR YEARLY TANKER DRILL, ITS YOUR TURN FOR THIS YEAR...

[mfc2257 464]

* jflynn - on several other topics you have mentioned, that you do not know much about tanker operations, which is understandable, and if you ever wish to attend on of the Croton / Yorktown / Millwood yearly tanker drills, we would love to have you there and open up to any ideas you may have... let me know and I will gladly email you when we do our next...

* bnechis - you did attend our last CYM tanker drill and you did bring up some good points, one thing I took from your comments, lead Croton to get a 5 inch gated Wye, and because the tanker site was on a hill side, with no level areas near by, we tossed the ponds on the side of the road and went with the gated Wye and had 2 tankers nurse to the relay pumper, which worked out great.. thanks Barry.

I think it would be a great idea for a complement of folks from Yonkers or other southern Westchester department for that matter to attend a water shuttle drill. There are so many different scenarios surrounding drafting, relay pumping, uphill water supply (filling the supply line), and apparatus placement that the southern departments rarely have to encounter. When a municipal water system fails however it becomes challenging to provide continuos water supply. I would also love to see how the northern Westchester tankers would interact with Yonkers tractor drawn water tender should a water supply failure occur in Yonkers. I think the down county officers could provide valuable insight for the norther brothers with regard to other operations.

Edited October 7, 2011 by mfc2257

[JFLYNN 681]

I think it would be a great idea for a complement of folks from Yonkers or other southern Westchester department for that matter to attend a water shuttle drill. There are so many different scenarios surrounding drafting, relay pumping, uphill water supply (filling the supply line), and apparatus placement that the southern departments rarely have to encounter. When a municipal water system fails however it becomes challenging to provide continuos water supply. I would also love to see how the northern Westchester tankers would interact with Yonkers tractor drawn water tender should a water supply failure occur in Yonkers. I think the down county officers could provide valuable insight for the norther brothers with regard to other operations.

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

[JFLYNN 681]

When you really think about it, there should of been at least one additional engine on this job, ... for a second fill site for the Tankers... one of the general rules of thumb I have learned, ( 3 tankers can work off of 1 fill site, 4 - 6 tankers should have 2 fill sites. ) so with this in mind, there should of been another engine on the list...

* newsbuff - tell you what, you start on 1 side of BCR and I'll come in from the other end with T 10 and you tell me its really a 2 lane road...

* johnnyov - your incident debriefing, it might be helpful to invite some of the key members of the different areas of this call... ( the fill site, tanker off load site, and fire ground ) so that you can see points from different views... plus, I am sure its not going to be the last time we work together, so it could help get us all on the same page or provide us with a different method of operating...

* jflynn - on several other topics you have mentioned, that you do not know much about tanker operations, which is understandable, and if you ever wish to attend on of the Croton / Yorktown / Millwood yearly tanker drills, we would love to have you there and open up to any ideas you may have... let me know and I will gladly email you when we do our next...

* bnechis - you did attend our last CYM tanker drill and you did bring up some good points, one thing I took from your comments, lead Croton to get a 5 inch gated Wye, and because the tanker site was on a hill side, with no level areas near by, we tossed the ponds on the side of the road and went with the gated Wye and had 2 tankers nurse to the relay pumper, which worked out great.. thanks Barry.

* 99subi - most of the tankers in this area carry around 3000 gallons...

- as far as the worries about there being 100 FF on this job, WOW thats great... I know every single resident I spoke with, who were trying to get home or out for some reason we gald so many people were there to help out... I think it says allot of the system up here in Northen Westchester... it may not be the best, but it does work.

....... AND YORKTOWN, THIS DID NOT COUNT AS YOUR YEARLY TANKER DRILL, ITS YOUR TURN FOR THIS YEAR...

...you would be open to ANY ideas I may have??

[JFLYNN 681]

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

proactive qtip...I'm sure someone out there will need this...

[mfc2257 464]

proactive qtip...I'm sure someone out there will need this...

Not gonna be me.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to combine water shuttle with your standard operations at a multiple story OMD with similar attached and limited access to the rear in the event of a municipal water supply failure

[xchief2x 79]

Chief Flynn not only are you a knowledgeable man but a funny one as well.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

Well, I guess the laws of physics cease to exist on top of your "city." Were these magic "btu's?" Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans? (enough "my Cousin Vinny," it's bed time)

[Bnechis 3,961]

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

LOL, Chief where do you think your water comes from, The Bronx?

[pjtm4 4]

Can someone tell me, when are the Departments in Northern Westchester going to start using class A Foam ? If you have water supply problems and you use foam you will use alot less water.

You can cut your need for tankers in half and have a quicker knock down, no matter how big the fire is on arrival.

[mfc2257 464]

Can someone tell me, when are the Departments in Northern Westchester going to start using class A Foam ? If you have water supply problems and you use foam you will use alot less water.

You can cut your need for tankers in half and have a quicker knock down, no matter how big the fire is on arrival.

Millwood has been using Class A since 1996. Others surrounding have some capability too.

[chris 18]

I think its funny, that Northern Westchester seems to be the the new adopted word for vollie. very good. I also know my name is to the left and my town, but my views are all mine, not like others on here hiding behind a cute screen name or where they are from for what ever reason. I also like how this is fun for all. Someone is getting something out of every conversation no matter what the comment - As it should be, there are very smart people on this site. The Southern Westchester fires do have more BTU's, because a city block of fire burns hotter than a single house . I know Yorktown and all mutual aid company's did a good job at this fire because I was there. And yes, I do agree with all - that to many chiefs in the same place is a bad idea . And yes J. Flynn we would be open to some ideas, as all should be, if they want to be good at what they do, this is how we learn . Even though you are from Southern Westchester.

[FirNaTine 370]

On the topic of consolidation, manpower issues, lack of resources, and abuse of mutual aid...why is it that YHFD wants to build a substation near a Millwood firehouse when they have 4 engines and only two got out for a confirmed fire??? So lets construct a new building with apparatus so nobody can get those rigs out either??? If they were able to respond, Croton and Millwood would only have needed to send a tanker each :-/

You gotta b kiddin me! Not another unneeded Station. C'mon! Put the money to better use!