Article from Yorktown fire (10/3/11)

[MoFire390 118]

heres thelink to an article from the Cortlandt-Peekskill Patch about the Yorktown fire today. some pretty good pictures as well. enjoy

http://peekskill.patch.com/articles/fire-engulfs-yorktown-home-no-injuries

[1075thebox 1]

Units operating at the scene:

Yorktown FD: 2531, 2532, 2533, E272, E273, T14

Croton FD: 2082, E119, T10

Somers FD: T16, U88

Millwood FD: 2252, E247, T15

Continental Village FD: 2131, 2132, 2133, T11

Katonah FD: 2211, T6

Mohegan FD: 2266, E255 w/ FAST

Yorktown VAC & Medics

Yorktown Police

WCDES Units: Battalion 10, C&O Zone 4 w/ 1404, Car 24

Relocated to Yorktown HQ:

Mount Kisco FD: E104

Ossining FD: 2331, 2332, TL42

***All times are approximate from our firehouse computer.***

17:28 - Yorktown FD w/ Mohegan FAST dispatched to reported structure fire.

17:29 - 2532 responding. 60 Control advising fire thru the roof.

17:30 - 2533, E273 responding.

17:31 - Millwood E247 & T15 dispatched. 2252 responding.

17:32 - Battalion 10 dispatched.

17:33 - E272 responding. Mohegan retoned for FAST manpower.

17:35 - 2533 requesting 1st Alarm, fire visible from a distance. T14 responding.

17:37 - Yorktown 10-75 transmitted, Continental Village T11, Croton E119 & T10 dispatched. 2082 responding.

17:38 - E273 on location. 2131 responding. Somers T16 dispatched.

17:39 - 2533 on location, E247, E255 w/ FAST responding.

17:39 - Mount Kisco E104 & Ossining TL42 toned out to relocate Yorktown FD HQ.

17:40 - T10 responding.

17:41 - 2532 on location, E119 responding.

17:44 - 2531, T11, T15 responding.

17:45 - Bat10, T14 on location.

17:46 - 2533 reports 2 L/S/O, 2nd floor fully involved.

17:47 - 2252 on location. T16 responding.

17:49 - 2531 on location.

17:51 - 2082, E119, T10 on location.

17:53 - T15 on location.

17:55 - E247 on location.

17:56 - E255 on location.

17:57 - Bat10 requesting additional Tanker, Katonah T6 dispatched.

18:00 - 2131, T11 on location.

18:04 - C&O Zone 4 dispatched.

18:05 - 2211 responding.

18:06 - T16 on location. T6 responding. Bat10 requesting Con Ed electric.

18:24 - 2211, T6 on location.

18:25 - 1404 responding.

18:38 - Bat10 requesting Somers RAC Unit (U88).

18:43 - 1404 on location.

18:51 - Car 24 on location.

19:03 - RAC U88 responding.

19:14 - Bat10 reports fire is darkening down, holding all units.

19:23 - U88 on location.

19:39 - Bat10 requesting a Cascade unit, Buchanan U12 dispatched.

19:46 - 2551, U12 responding.

19:59 - Bat10 reports Tankers are being released, companies have established another water source.

20:12 - Bat10 reports IC holding E119, E247, E255, T6 for manpower.

20:15 - 2551, U12 on location.

20:19 - 2131, T11 in service.

20:31 - Bat10, T16 in service.

20:36 - T10 in service.

21:05 - T15 in service.

21:46 - 2551, U12 in service.

22:20 - 2211, T6, U88 in service.

22:28 - 2252, E247 in service.

22:33 - Car 24 reports C&O Team in service.

22:53 - E119 in service.

23:17 - E255 in service.

23:44 - 2531 reports all Yorktown units are in service.

[peterose313 345]

Yorktown Fire Lohud Article

[JohnnyOV 2]

Apparently calls were being received from the Saw Mill / TSP area, and Rt 35 and Rt 100 intersection in Somers for this. Flames were about 40-50 feet in the air, and the smoke column was in the hundreds.

Upon arrival, flames were completely through 50% of the roof and 2nd floor on the A/B side, and fire had already progressed through the access to the bedroom area of the 2nd floor on the D side and was quickly taking over the first floor AB corner as well.

First arriving units were met with neighbors and police who were positive that the homeowner was still inside, so a quick relay of 272 (750gal, 2nd due) to 273(1000, 1st due) gallons was established as personnel committed to gaining entry through the 2nd floor sun room area on the BC corner to effect a search and hold the fire off in that area. As crews were making a push and were getting a hold on the fire, the floor began to sag and immediately after the main joist to the roof partially gave way giving the interior guys quite the "pucker factor." An "Urgent" message was transmitted relaying the minor / partial collapse and units then pulled out, PAR was established, and a defensive operation then commenced.

Homeowner was not home, and was out paying bills at the time.

Once again, the home was packed with stuff creating an enormous fire load. It seems like all the hoarders like to flock to Yorktown these days....

[BBBMF 158]

Not to burst anyones bubble here but when you say "the floor began to sag and immediately after the main joist to the roof partially gave way", i would think that was in no way a minor collapse. I would think any failures of any buildings main structural load bearing element(s) should be considered a major collapse with the transmission of a mayday followed by a discontinuation of interior attack and a roll call which you stated was done.

Just don't want guys getting the idea that a roof beam failing is a minor collapse ;-)

But it was a nice job done overall!

Edited October 4, 2011 by BBBMF

[JFLYNN 681]

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

[99subi 121]

Ive had this same thought for years. Seems like depts cant hold on their own, whether it be staffing issues,lack of apparatus and/or incompetent IC.Again as stated above im not picking on any specific incident.

Edited October 5, 2011 by 99subi

[newsbuff 286]

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

Chief Flynn,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. A Bread and Butter fire takes an extraordinary response from the Northern Westchester Departments. What if there were 2 fires in adjoining departments? At this fire, manpower was, maybe not drained, but was utilized, from seven departments. That is an amazing number. Think about the response times this takes. It took the FASTeam 28 minutes to get on scene, and that is a bordering department. Doesn't seem to be a very "FAST"eam response. When the members were operating inside, during the "mini-collape", was the FASTeam on location? Was there an acting FASTeam, as I know Yorktown has one?

If there were a larger pool of people to pull from, I think these numbers would be significantly smaller, and everyone's lives would be safer.

But everyone wants their fiefdoms, C'est la vie.

Edited October 5, 2011 by newsbuff

[grumpyff 1,159]

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

Going by the list posted above it looks like most of the mutual aid was for Tankers. I never understood tanker shuttles until I joined a department that relies on them. Its better to have too many tankers, than not enough, its no fun when you run out of water. I see five tankers listed, 3 of of which can carry a maximum of 2 or 3 firefighters (including the driver), the other two have larger crew cab areas and can hold upto 6 (including the driver). Those three smaller tankers most likely contributed nothing to manpower on the scene, as some departments want a second person in the tanker to act as a spotter and work the radio. The way tanker shuttles were taught to me (and maybe I am wrong) was one dumping at the scene, one on the way to the scene, one filling at the fill site, and one returning to the fill site to be refilled. Add in additional tankers as the distance increases, or you start to use more than one porta pond to flow large amounts of water such as a ladder or master stream devices 1 Utility (U88) is a bus, not sure if it carried manpower or was used for rehab. 3 engines called to the scene of which one was listed as the FAST. Remember, with a tanker shuttle you need an engine at the water source, and often another at the scene to supply the engine making the attack, or a ladder. Even if these departments consolidated ( which I am not totally against) chances are the same amount of apparatus would have responded.

Edited October 5, 2011 by grumpyff

[99subi 121]

I think northern Westchester depts need to start relying on themselves. Establishing their own fast team within the dept for working fires would be a SMALL start.

[JFLYNN 681]

Going by the list posted above it looks like most of the mutual aid was for Tankers. I never understood tanker shuttles until I joined a department that relies on them. Its better to have too many tankers, than not enough, its no fun when you run out of water. I see five tankers listed, 3 of of which can carry a maximum of 2 or 3 firefighters (including the driver), the other two have larger crew cab areas and can hold upto 6 (including the driver). Those three smaller tankers most likely contributed nothing to manpower on the scene, as some departments want a second person in the tanker to act as a spotter and work the radio. The way tanker shuttles were taught to me (and maybe I am wrong) was one dumping at the scene, one on the way to the scene, one filling at the fill site, and one returning to the fill site to be refilled. Add in additional tankers as the distance increases, or you start to use more than one porta pond to flow large amounts of water such as a ladder or master stream devices 1 Utility (U88) is a bus, not sure if it carried manpower or was used for rehab. 3 engines called to the scene of which one was listed as the FAST. Remember, with a tanker shuttle you need an engine at the water source, and often another at the scene to supply the engine making the attack, or a ladder. Even if these departments consolidated ( which I am not totally against) chances are the same amount of apparatus would have responded.

I appreciate the primer on tanker ops as I have zero experience and hardly any knowledge in this area. However, I expected a poster to explain away this issue due to the need for a water shuttle. It doesn't seem to me that this adequately explains the need for 7 separate departments on scene, a 28 minute wait for a FAST Team, relocations from 2 additional departments, a Battalion Coordinator from DES, a total of over 100 Firefighters, Lord only knows how many Chiefs, and so on...

Since tanker shuttles are often necessary in Northern Westchester, and these evolutions require several tankers, even more reason to consolidate and regionalize, no?

[99subi 121]

While I do agree with grumpy most of the depts were tankers, you have to realize that,a total of 7 departments were on the scene. Again not picking on Y-town,not one bit,I personally like how Y-town operates,but maybe tanker depts should start thinking outside the box and come up with a better way to get water to their scenes without stripping half the county of tankers. What if Continental Village had a w/f toned out during this operation.. where are they getting water from and how fast will they get it.....

Edited October 5, 2011 by 99subi

[grumpyff 1,159]

I agree 28 minutes for a FAST team is ridiculous. Most of the apparatus listed are chiefs ( I think I counted 10 chiefs listed). I wonder how many of those 100 firefighters mentioned in the article are true interior firefighters, and how many are the guys that only show their faces when there is free food, or a big job. How many were 'exterior' firefighters, either too old, too young, not trained, or physically not capable of interior firefighting. Every department has them. Like I said I am not against consolidation, but most departments only have one or two tankers in their own department, and I don't think that would change with consolidation. IT would eventually lead to standardization of the tankers, and maybe a chance to improve the ISO ratings in the area, as BNechis has mentioned several times in several different threads. Consolidation would eliminate most of these chiefs (and their cars as well). I see one department sent 3 chiefs, for what? Who was watching the store back home?

Edited October 5, 2011 by grumpyff

[grumpyff 1,159]

While I do agree with grumpy most of the depts were tankers, you have to realize that,a total of 7 departments were on the scene. Again not picking on Y-town,not one bit,I personally like how Y-town operates,but maybe tanker depts should start thinking outside the box and come up with a better way to get water to their scenes without stripping half the county of tankers. What if Continental Village had a w/f toned out during this operation.. where are they getting water from and how fast will they get it.....

The only way would be to buy more tankers for each department, something I don't think would be feasible or cost effective. Most people here b**** about the duplication of services. Tanker Ops suck, but the alternative is to start paying to install municipal water system which really gets in big $. Outside of natural water sources (ponds, lakes, reservoirs, pools) another option would be to install tanks in various areas of the county, which runs into the problems of land ownership, who pays to install and maintain. How would the tank be filled, either via well or fire department coming with a tanker from another water source, but it still requires tankers. Its amazing how fast 3000gallons of water can be drafted out of a port pond, while waiting for the next tanker to arrive (hopefully before the porta pond runs out)

Edited October 5, 2011 by grumpyff

[99subi 121]

How much water does the average tanker carry per load?

[grumpyff 1,159]

It varies depending on what each department specified. I have have seen as little as 1500, and as much as 4000 gallons. This is where consolidation would be great, buy everything the same. Same size tank, same dump times, etc. Unless it was ordered from the same spec, then everything is different. In my own department, our 22-4-2, our primary tanker holds 3000 gallons, but we have learned it dumps quicker from the side than the rear. Our second tanker only holds 2300 gallons, only dumps from the rear, and is slow to fill. If you ever have the opportunity to attend a tanker shuttle drill go and watch at the dump site. You will often see someone with a stopwatch, a pad and a pen. They try to keep track of how long it takes each tanker to dump, then return to the fill sight and back to the dump site. If every tanker is different, each tankers times will vary.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

The lack of fires in Westchester could have something to do with the massive number of departments and personnel responding to fire. Even if a department is just toned out for a tanker in Westchester, 15 guys try to jump on...since they typically don't seat many people, utilities are taken, chiefs cars are stuffed, etc.

I think northern Westchester depts need to start relying on themselves. Establishing their own fast team within the dept for working fires would be a SMALL start.

It is my understanding that a department can not be its own fast team...not sure if this is true or just SOP/SOG for some departments. I do not see this done often in Westchester. Sure, department could go out and purchase super tankers or 5 tankers to be self-sufficient, but why when you can easily get a tanker from a neighboring town.

I appreciate the primer on tanker ops as I have zero experience and hardly any knowledge in this area. However, I expected a poster to explain away this issue due to the need for a water shuttle. It doesn't seem to me that this adequately explains the need for 7 separate departments on scene, a 28 minute wait for a FAST Team, relocations from 2 additional departments, a Battalion Coordinator from DES, a total of over 100 Firefighters, Lord only knows how many Chiefs, and so on...

Since tanker shuttles are often necessary in Northern Westchester, and these evolutions require several tankers, even more reason to consolidate and regionalize, no?

There are lots of places that rely on Tanker Ops more frequently and at a much larger scale that are doing fine without consolidation. Tanker's are not a reason for consolidation, however, there are a bunch of reasons for consolidation in Westchester.

While I do agree with grumpy most of the depts were tankers, you have to realize that,a total of 7 departments were on the scene. Again not picking on Y-town,not one bit,I personally like how Y-town operates,but maybe tanker depts should start thinking outside the box and come up with a better way to get water to their scenes without stripping half the county of tankers. What if Continental Village had a w/f toned out during this operation.. where are they getting water from and how fast will they get it.....

If you do not have water in parts of your district, you have no choice but to have that water coming in for major alarms via Tankers, Tenders, or whatever you want to call them. Part of the concept of relocation is to relocate the appropriate resources... For example, if there is an area that relies heavily on tanker ops then they needs to relocate a tanker or two to this area if they are stripped for a working fire somewhere.

Where I ride while at school (upstate NY) we have LOTS LOTS LOTS LOTS of area that is miles from any water...so if needed, we call for a tanker task force activations...this gets us somewhere between 5 and 10 tankers, several of which are super tankers. For whatever reason, these tankers come with a driver and a single crew member to help with filling, backing up etc. Incidents run very very smoothly despite a large amount of departments listed on the official rundown. Running fires with a department that has a large amount of tanker areas, I can honestly say that there is not many things more comforting than doing an interior attack knowing that you have lot and lots of water being dropped at the scene constantly for as long as needed.

How much water does the average tanker carry per load?

Super Tankers are nice and fun to have around.

Edited October 5, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[PFDRes47cue 653]

It varies depending on what each department specified. I have have seen as little as 1500, and as much as 4000 gallons. This is where consolidation would be great, buy everything the same. Same size tank, same dump times, etc. Unless it was ordered from the same spec, then everything is different. In my own department, our 22-4-2, our primary tanker holds 3000 gallons, but we have learned it dumps quicker from the side than the rear. Our second tanker only holds 2300 gallons, only dumps from the rear, and is slow to fill. If you ever have the opportunity to attend a tanker shuttle drill go and watch at the dump site. You will often see someone with a stopwatch, a pad and a pen. They try to keep track of how long it takes each tanker to dump, then return to the fill sight and back to the dump site. If every tanker is different, each tankers times will vary.

Great points. There is a lot of differences from tanker to tanker. I have seen up to 8000 gallons in big 5-axle tractor trailer tankers. My department that I am a mutual aid member with has a tanker and an engine/tanker which is an engine with a rear tanker discharge shoot (very common up here). Both are spec'ed very differently and fill/discharge at different rates. Depending on the different tankers and set ups, it can be a challenge to keep a good flow of tankers to and from a scene. This often causes us to have lots of ponds set up for different types of trucks based on discharge speed and where they discharge from.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

A lot of good discussion can stem from this fire but as far as the fire goes....nice work by all departments involved, I'm glad no one was injured. Stay safe.

[xchief2x 79]

While I do agree with some points made here like 28 miuntes for a FAST team is far to long to wait, fortunately this was for the most part an exterior surround and drown as the fire had made substantial progress prior to arrival of the first due unit and probably was burning for a good period of time prior to discovery and reporting. As for consolidation/regionalization I think that is a fantastic idea, however with NY being a home rule state and too many different entities to make it happen so maybe we should find another topic to beat to death. As stated most of the mutual aid at this job was for tankers, the Millwood engine was requested for the fill site and the Croton engine was requested for the dump site to supply the rigs at the top of the hill doing the attack. The 3 units that were held for manpower were due to the fact that this structure was a collyer's mansion so overhaul was a labor intensive operation. Utility 88 was requested for rehab, utility 12 was requested for the cascade. The county's policy requires a deputy coordinator for any mutual aid fire. My estimation of manpower was more like 60 - 70 firefighters. Mutual aid is not strictly used by only northern westchester it is used countywide by almost all departments except going into the city of yonkers. (Correct me if I am wrong here Chief Flynn). I do have 1 question for you Chief Flynn and I am not trying to start a career/vollie problem here since I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your department. How many rigs (engines, trucks, rescues and any special units) would you get on your 2nd alarm and how many firefighters would that be. This post is strictly my own observations and opinions and in no way reflect my department or any department that operated at ths job and did a great job!

[JohnnyOV 2]

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

Sorry Chief, I was reading up on my phone and not neglecting to respond to you. No offense taken, or feelings hurt either.

To begin, the Yorktown Heights Fire District covers approximately 40 square miles, 1/2 of which contain no hydrants. The southern end of Yorktown is the non-hydrant district, with roads that were designed for travel well before cars were ever designed to be driven on them. Old Logging Rd, which is the access road for Maiden lane is even worse. It is a single lane goat path, with barely even enough room for a single engine, let alone some massive tankers to drive up, or even turn around. OUR engines and tanker are designed to fit up these roads/ driveways, and designed with our district in mind. Some of our neighboring department's tankers will not fit down our old roads, and if they do make it down, there is no where for them to turn around to get back to a fill site. Most of the houses located on these properties are large, older buildings constructed with balloon frame, wood, plaster, lathe, and are home to many hoarders (seems to be an epidemic in Yorktown recently). The newer homes are just as big and McMansions in some cases. Many unique homes and oddly designed layouts also adorn our district on the southend.

Yorktown has 2 primary first due engines, Engine 273 out of the Commerce St station in the center of town with 1000 gallons, and Engine 272 out of Station 2 in the Northern, hydrant supplied section of town, with 750 gallons of water. The Tanker sits at the commerce st house as well. Engine 270 is a rescue pumper with only 500 gallons, and engine 271 is our spare engine (basically an older twin of 273). Engine 270 would normally be a 3rd due engine, if it responds at all, to keep our hurst tools available for a run. In our non-hydranted sections of town, it is not uncommon to have driveways that are hundreds, or even thousands of feet long (our longest being almost 1/2 a mile off of hog hill rd). Old logging road is basically no different then a common access driveway that is thousands of feet long.

Now on to your question of why 7 departments were called.

Our first due engine takes the drive way and normally lays in from the bottom for long lays. The next due engine then hooks up to that to relay pump to the first due. The tanker supplies the 2nd due, and drops its tank for a dump site there. At this particular house, the driveway was only 100' long, if that. 273 arrived first, and 272 was seconds behind them. Upon arrival, the neighbors were screaming that the owner was still inside, so our priorities immediately turned to life safety. Engine 272 immediately supplied 273 with their tank water, and sent their crew to assist in the offensive attack. Tanker 14 arrived shortly thereafter, and supplied 272.

Millwood and Croton's engines were called as draft site fills, and I believe a relay and supply line to the tanker at the scene. Even with the water that was there with the initial 3 apparatus, the water filling the supply lines, and the time it takes to back one tanker out and have another one pull in and dump its tank, the supply was running out every 2-5 minutes and we could not keep up with the fire flow formula. More tankers were requested to compensate for the lack of water supply.

Yorktown is very adamant about not stripping other towns and villages of apparatus for our fires. If we've called you for 1 piece, the only way we're going to call for something else is if there has been a discussion with the chief of that particular department a)having the capability to supply 2 pieces and the manpower and willingness to deplete their town of their own resources. If they say no, we can't/don't want to/ or unsure, they're not going to get called for 2.

Our 10-75 assignment for any non hydrant area (which we'll stick to for the remainder of the discussion [our other boxes and assignments can be found here: Yorktown box alarms]) includes tankers from 3 other departments, and an engine as a source pumper; 1 and 1 are requested on the relocate to cover our town since our manpower is focused on the working fire. FASTeams are dual dispatched on the initial report of any type of structure fire before a working fire is transmitted. 2nd alarm, moves the engine that is standing by up to a new draft site, and brings in 2 additional tankers, a cascade to the scene, another FAST and another engine on a relocate to our HQ. 3rd alarm brings in 2 additional Tankers and the Field Comm unit. The relocated ladder will not be taken off standby, as they will clog the system up.

So the 7 departments were:

Yorktown as first due

Croton - Engine and Tanker

Millwood - Engine and Tanker

Somers - Tanker, Rehab unit

Continental Village - Tanker

Katonah - Tanker

Buchannon - Cascade

Now, I'm for regonalization and standardization of some aspects of the fire department, but some areas of the county, regardless of fire district lines, are completely different then others. Apparatus design that work well in one area, may not work well in an area directly adjacent to that. Consolidation is always a hot topic, and I know prior i've been adamant about county consolidation. Honestly, I have no idea what the correct answer is. Sometimes, independant districts are fantastic, and other times they're completely horrendous. I really don't know if there is a single correct answer for the current situation around our area.

And in the utmost respectful way to ask this possible, and I really mean that, would you or anyone else for that matter, consider consolidating the ENTIRE county, large cities included, into ONE regional department? If so, why, or if you exclude large cities from your plan, why are they so special and different from a town or village department?

[JohnnyOV 2]

It took the FASTeam 28 minutes to get on scene, and that is a bordering department. Doesn't seem to be a very "FAST"eam response.

This is why the dual dispatch with a FASTeam was implemented. Get them started, and if you don't need them, turn em around. All of our M/A teams were more then willing to try this out.

Yorktown's own FAST team response protocol is if we cannot field a crew (minimum 4 FASTeam qualified members [which is pages long in our SOGs]) in 3 minutes and out the door in 5, we will notify 60-control and the IC we cannot field a FASTeam. If we know we cannot field it sooner then that, we'll notify them immediately. If we have the manpower(minimum 4 interior firefighters), but not a FASTeam, we will notify the IC that we can send either an engine or truck, if the IC so chooses to accept. We have a no retone policy, and honestly feel others lives are more important then our ego's

As "buffy" as this sounds, our guys are very good at "getting on the horn" the moment a neighboring department gets called to a fire, and sending out mass texts and group chats (for those who have smart phones) to see who's around to respond. We sometimes know before the first due company arrives on scene, if we'll be able to field a crew or not should we be called. Members normally start making their way to HQ to lesson the time even more as the texts are going out.

When the members were operating inside, during the "mini-collape", was the FASTeam on location?

No

Was there an acting FASTeam, as I know Yorktown has one?

4 out of the first 5 arriving firemen are FASTeam members.

3 in and about 20 outside was being utilized.

Edited October 5, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[Remember585 815]

As "buffy" as this sounds, our guys are very good at "getting on the horn" the moment a neighboring department gets called to a fire, and sending out mass texts and group chats (for those who have smart phones) to see who's around to respond. We sometimes know before the first due company arrives on scene, if we'll be able to field a crew or not should we be called. Members normally start making their way to HQ to lesson the time even more as the texts are going out.

That's exactly what my guys did for your fire. By the time I got across town to our Station #2, T10 was on the road w/ 2 guys and E119 was pulling off the ramp with 8 guys. Since your department implemented the FAST response on the initial dispatches, many of us have somewhat "tuned" our ears to listen for you.

I had guys calling me the second you got dispatched asking which of our resources are on that box assignment, and they started assembling.

Hope we got there quick enough.

PS - let me know if you guys come across one of our halligans...

[Remember585 815]

A Bread and Butter fire takes an extraordinary response from the Northern Westchester Departments.

Define "extraordinary response" - I don't follow.

What if there were 2 fires in adjoining departments?

Not following you here. Are you saying neighbors can't respond to neighbors in case they have a fire at home? Please elaborate.

At this fire, manpower was, maybe not drained, but was utilized, from seven departments. That is an amazing number.

What's so amazing? Host FD's 3 rigs, MA source Engine, MA Dump Site engine, 5 MA Tankers, Cascade Unit, FAST. Again, not following you here.

Think about the response times this takes. It took the FASTeam 28 minutes to get on scene, and that is a bordering department. Doesn't seem to be a very "FAST"eam response.

While I agree a FAST company needs to be on scene as quick as possible, that location is very remote from Mohegan's HQ, as well as all of the other Mutual Aid that came in. Also, these times in the post above may no be 100% accurate, as the writer said.

When the members were operating inside, during the "mini-collape", was the FASTeam on location? Was there an acting FASTeam, as I know Yorktown has one?

I could be wrong, but I think I heard radio traffic stating a person may still be inside. If there's a chance someone is inside, I believe the OSHA 2 in / 2 out rule is not expected to be adhered to - and according to said rule, your apparatus operators may count as your "two out." When we arrived, there was at least 10-12 members of the YHFD on location, so I am sure all of them didn't go inside initially.

If there were a larger pool of people to pull from, I think these numbers would be significantly smaller, and everyone's lives would be safer.

Still would have to call Tankers...

But everyone wants their fiefdoms, C'est la vie.

Not 100% true, there are guys out there (myself included) that believe things can be done better, but with what we all have at our disposal at the moment - we do the best we can. Yorktown and Croton are two neighboring departments that have done plenty of assessments to see what we can do to help ourselves and our customers, which has led to automatic aid responses of FASTs, Tankers, etc. We may not be a "consolidated" group, but our intentions are for the best of all involved, given what we have available to us right now.

[Bnechis 3,961]

but most departments only have one or two tankers in their own department, and I don't think that would change with consolidation. IT would eventually lead to standardization of the tankers, and maybe a chance to improve the ISO ratings in the area, as BNechis has mentioned several times in several different threads.

Thanks. Maybe the problem is too many engines and not enough tankers.

The only way would be to buy more tankers for each department, something I don't think would be feasible or cost effective. Most people here b**** about the duplication of services.

The duplication is not in tankers, its in engines, tower ladders & chiefs cars. The model generally is 1 engine (1,000 gal tank) and 1 tanker pumper (3,000 tanker with 1,000gpm pump) per station. Most stations have 3+ engines. Minimum response of 2 stations (8,000 gallons). Upon arrival the engine becomes the attack unit. The tanker can nurse and drop its porta tank. if the supply line has a clappered siamese. Once the 2nd due engine arrives it can take over as the source and the 1st tanker leaves to go fill. 2nd tanker can start dumping. This works well for room & content fire and if it becomes a surround and drown just send more tankers. We would have enough.

Tanker Ops suck, but the alternative is to start paying to install municipal water system which really gets in big $. Outside of natural water sources (ponds, lakes, reservoirs, pools) another option would be to install tanks in various areas of the county, which runs into the problems of land ownership, who pays to install and maintain.

Yes, poorly run ones suck. It is not likely that municipal systems will ever be done in most "rural" areas. Many places have done tanks or cisterns. The land issue is easy as the right of way nest to most intersections is large enough to install them. Also most land owners are willing to allow them as it protects them. I added one at my Moms and it saves them $1,000's in insurance. The cost to add them is often on the FD, but if it allows you a great water supply and a reduction in the needed engines, plus a drop in ISO, there are plenty of way to fund it.

How would the tank be filled, either via well or fire department coming with a tanker from another water source, but it still requires tankers.

But its not under emergency conditions. How hard is it to schedule a tanker shuttle for an evening drill?

Also many add a rainwater collection system to keep them "topped off".

Its amazing how fast 3000gallons of water can be drafted out of a port pond, while waiting for the next tanker to arrive (hopefully before the porta pond runs out)

All the more reason for improving this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is my understanding that a department can not be its own fast team...not sure if this is true or just SOP/SOG for some departments.

That is not true. The only reason you can not be your own is if you can't put enough players on the field.

Sure, department could go out and purchase super tankers or 5 tankers to be self-sufficient, but why when you can easily get a tanker from a neighboring town.

If this were true, then why buy 3 or 4 engines when you can easily get one from a neighboring town?

There are lots of places that rely on Tanker Ops more frequently and at a much larger scale that are doing fine without consolidation. Tanker's are not a reason for consolidation, however, there are a bunch of reasons for consolidation in Westchester.

If they are doing fine, whats their rating? If they are still a 9 then they have yet to prove they are doing ok. The consolidation of multi depts in one So. Caroline county resulted in standardization of tankers and improved rating

from a 9 to a 5. Tanker ops is one of many reasons.

If you do not have water in parts of your district, you have no choice but to have that water coming in for major alarms via Tankers, Tenders, or whatever you want to call them. Part of the concept of relocation is to relocate the appropriate resources... For example, if there is an area that relies heavily on tanker ops then they needs to relocate a tanker or two to this area if they are stripped for a working fire somewhere.

We have 14 tankers to cover the northern 1/2 of the county. You send 7 from the NW to an incident and you have enough left for 1 incidnet, but the distances are so great that you have to strip protection from one side to cover the other, or everyone runs light and then you are just running on hope for no 2nd incident. Also when a dept only owns one tanker and relocates it, then how do they cover home?

I can honestly say that there is not many things more comforting than doing an interior attack knowing that you have lot and lots of water being dropped at the scene constantly for as long as needed.

Great reason for improving the way we do things.

There is a lot of differences from tanker to tanker. I have seen up to 8000 gallons in big 5-axle tractor trailer tankers. My department that I am a mutual aid member with has a tanker and an engine/tanker which is an engine with a rear tanker discharge shoot (very common up here). Both are spec'ed very differently and fill/discharge at different rates. Depending on the different tankers and set ups, it can be a challenge to keep a good flow of tankers to and from a scene. This often causes us to have lots of ponds set up for different types of trucks based on discharge speed and where they discharge from.

This is why standardization / consolidation is so desirable.

How much safer and effective would it be if they were the same.

As for consolidation/regionalization I think that is a fantastic idea, however with NY being a home rule state and too many different entities to make it happen so maybe we should find another topic to beat to death.

Not only can it happen, but NYS has been spending millions to help it along. A number of proposed legislative actions will help. What is stopping it now? Many in the local FD's are so against it that they would prefer to see no response than consolidation, so the politicians follow them for votes. If we can show those here that consolidation is good for everyone, then there is a chance for great improvements.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is a single lane goat path, with barely even enough room for a single engine, let alone some massive tankers to drive up, or even turn around. OUR engines and tanker are designed to fit up these roads/ driveways, and designed with our district in mind. Some of our neighboring department's tankers will not fit down our old roads, and if they do make it down, there is no where for them to turn around to get back to a fill site.

This is the exact reason for standarization, about 1/2 the tankers in the county are straign tankers or tanker/pumpers, the others are large pumper tankers so in this case 1/2 might be non usable, and of course they are not spread out based on type. its every dept. for themselves.

There are 4 or 5 major ways to deploy in non-hydranted areas, the best depends on the type of roads as mentioned above. the ones that work best in these areas are not bad in open areas, but the ones that work best in open areas, do not work at all in tight roads.

Now, I'm for regonalization and standardization of some aspects of the fire department, but some areas of the county, regardless of fire district lines, are completely different then others. Apparatus design that work well in one area, may not work well in an area directly adjacent to that.

Thats not completely true. Consider the Brush fire areas on Staten Island and the High Rises in Manhattan (and everything in between, The majority of units are almost identical (yes the require some special items). But there are many county depts. that pull this off. the key is looking at all of the special needs and determining what works best in most cases.

And in the utmost respectful way to ask this possible, and I really mean that, would you or anyone else for that matter, consider consolidating the ENTIRE county, large cities included, into ONE regional department? If so, why, or if you exclude large cities from your plan, why are they so special and different from a town or village department?

I do not see it as a bad thing, but there are 3 major consideration:

1) We need to get past the career / vol issues. They work together in many parts of the country, but those areas alll have STANDARDIZED training levels. Until that is agreed to, consolidation will never occur.

2) There is a real lack of trust of County Government in Westchester. This does not mean they could not do it, but I think its a major stumbling block. Last years battle of DES/DPS is a great example of the Fire services mistrust.

3) I think it is more likely to occur after large segmints come together. Merging 58 depts together vs, making 5 or 6 depts of 8-10 depts or even 10 depts (of 5-6 districts) would be much easier then after they have come together you could bring those depts together.

The later will take 20-40 years. But the smaller ones could occur within a year or 2.

[Monty 35]

If this were true, then why buy 3 or 4 engines when you can easily get one from a neighboring town?

Tradition Each company needs it's own piece ...

We have 14 tankers to cover the northern 1/2 of the county. You send 7 from the NW to an incident and you have enough left for 1 incident, but the distances are so great that you have to strip protection from one side to cover the other, or everyone runs light and then you are just running on hope for no 2nd incident. Also when a dept only owns one tanker and relocates it, then how do they cover home?

Of course, if you are good for 2 incidents, what if the 3rd happens? Do you plan for the 100 year flood, or the 500 year flood, or the 1000 year flood? What's your level of risk you are willing to accept? And how much do you want to pay to mitigate that risk? (Seems very similar to the Somers thread).

I don't know the answer; but if we have 14 tankers in Westchester, how many are in Putnam County - or in Connecticut to respond to that 2nd or 3rd incident?

I'd wager that one side effect of this kind of incident is that all those 'buffy' types are 'tuned in' to this and any subsequent calls will get a faster response because folks are expecting it more, hanging out at the firehouse etc.

Again, like many I definitely think there is room for improvement and reduced costs - but I don't think there is anyone these days that has access to a blank checkbook.

[FirNaTine 370]

And people are questioning why Somers FD is looking into change? DUH! Hey guys let's not pick on Northern Westchester Depts. there are quite a few in lower Westchester that have a great water supply and have quite a few depts. respond on m/a for your bread and butter fires.

Edited October 5, 2011 by FirNaTine

[newsbuff 286]

Define "extraordinary response" - I don't follow.

Extraordinary meaning a total of nine departments being called for a single fire. Granted three were only for tanker operations, but in this case, every tanker from Just into the Putnam Line, to Ossining was called to this scene.

Not following you here. Are you saying neighbors can't respond to neighbors in case they have a fire at home? Please elaborate.

I don't know about your department, but for most, when there is a fire, all available manpower is assigned, and being used for that specific operation. You know how long it takes to pack up an engine, and get it back into service. I can't possibly see how one could send manpower and apparatus mutual aid, when there is a large assignment going on in their home district. Priority falls on your home territory, that's what the taxpayers pay for.

What's so amazing? Host FD's 3 rigs, MA source Engine, MA Dump Site engine, 5 MA Tankers, Cascade Unit, FAST. Again, not following you here.

As someone mentioned earlier, what if a neighboring department that has water source issues had a fire at the same time, which required tanker operations? One fire essentially stripped all of Northern Westchester(excluding out east) of their "water on wheels." And yes, I do understand that we could sit here and "what if" all day, but I put this in as it is not a far stretch, and could very well happen at any time.

While I agree a FAST company needs to be on scene as quick as possible, that location is very remote from Mohegan's HQ, as well as all of the other Mutual Aid that came in. Also, these times in the post above may no be 100% accurate, as the writer said.

I do know that the time for this was accurate), as I have friends in Mohegan that gave me the rundown as it was happening. I also know that this is the a** end of everywhere, as it is across the reservoir, but only 2 miles from the Mohegan Border. Should it still take you 28 minutes to get just 2 miles(albeit windy roads) outside of your district? That being said, Mohegan had to be retoned for manpower, which signifies a delayed response. Another six minutes after the retone, they were out the door. You said your department(along with when Yorktown has to go FAST, as JohnnyOV said) was already "pre-planning" before you were even called. I applaud you on that and think it is a model that many others should use, so it doesn't create the problem that I am talking about.

I could be wrong, but I think I heard radio traffic stating a person may still be inside. If there's a chance someone is inside, I believe the OSHA 2 in / 2 out rule is not expected to be adhered to - and according to said rule, your apparatus operators may count as your "two out." When we arrived, there was at least 10-12 members of the YHFD on location, so I am sure all of them didn't go inside initially.

Yes, that is what I have heard from others and seen on here too. I may have spoken to hastily on this, and understand the circumstances they were presented with. I am by no means an expert on the OSHA rule of 2 in/2 out, therefore I will not comment.

Still would have to call Tankers...

True.

Not 100% true, there are guys out there (myself included) that believe things can be done better, but with what we all have at our disposal at the moment - we do the best we can. Yorktown and Croton are two neighboring departments that have done plenty of assessments to see what we can do to help ourselves and our customers, which has led to automatic aid responses of FASTs, Tankers, etc. We may not be a "consolidated" group, but our intentions are for the best of all involved, given what we have available to us right now.

And this is why I said before, I applaud what yourself and Yorktown does for proactively looking to make things better, even if it means change(oh no!). If only there were other departments that had this same mentality, instead of the, "this is the way were doing it because we've always done it like that."