Somers Looking To Hire Career Firefighters?

[LTNRFD 266]

As a probie, I responded to a house fire at about 5am on a Sunday, it had been called in by a dog walker. I was on the 2nd due engine and upon our arrival we had a split level ranch with fire thru the roof and out many windows on the mid floor (kitchen,diniing/living room). Conditions were boarderline for an interior attack. The truck company forced the front door and then the garage. 2 cars were inside. That made everone think that the family might still be in there bedrooms. My LT. had us stretch a 2 1/2 to the front door and we made a push to the top of the stairs. We could not get down the hall to the bedrooms as conditions were bad and I kept feeling something hitting me (I found out later that it was roof slate, falling thru the attic. We were then ordered out and a ladder pipe knocked it down before we went back in. Once outside every window & the roof now had fire venting. I was not very hopeful for the family, when we pushed back down the hallway. It turned out that they were away.

So you finally admit you were the one that blew me out the back of the structure. I had the 1st line thru the back slider ( the LT. was given the key to the front door but couldn't open it). So to the back we went and there the LT. left me by myself. I was pushing the fire out the back of the kitchen when I got blown back by a line thru the front door.......I guess there wasn't good communications at that fire. The first due engine knew from neighbors that the family was away on vacation. Again poor communications.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also does a better ISO rating effect single family residential in the same way as modern commercial- the two main types of structures in Somers?

yes and no. ISO PPC (public protection classification) is a scale of 1-10 with 1 the best and 10 no fire department.

Each point improvement is worth approx. 8% (depending on which ins. co.). In NYS the 1 -10 is used for commercial properties. Residential properties are grouped into "a" (1,2,3), "b" (4,5,6) and "c" (7,8,9,10) however most ins companies then do the % savings for the group (i.e. 24%). Also each company still can use the 1-10 in is calculation the ABC was to make it 'easier". The main issue with this is improving or dropping one point will only save/cost a comunity if it changes the letter catagory.

Generally ISO 9 & 10 depts that make any effort to improve almost always drop to at least a 6.

The system is over 100 years old and its completely based on better fire protection capabilities equall less loss and less cost to the insurance company, they reward this with lower premiums to the community that has invested in better fire protection.

There must be folks on this site with that kind of knowledge, unless we bored them to death by now.

No, I'm not bored yet, but thanks for the consideration.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So you finally admit you were the one that blew me out the back of the structure. I had the 1st line thru the back slider ( the LT. was given the key to the front door but couldn't open it). So to the back we went and there the LT. left me by myself. I was pushing the fire out the back of the kitchen when I got blown back by a line thru the front door.......I guess there wasn't good communications at that fire. The first due engine knew from neighbors that the family was away on vacation. Again poor communications.

ROFLMAO

Malone (Shawn Connery): "Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a knife(1 3/4") to a gun (2 1/2") fight".

Only the help goes thru the back door, lol

When we arrived, all the neighbors said was; "where is the Scarsdale FD, why is New Rochelle here?"

I never knew we blew you out the back, thanks, makes the story even better.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Bnechis

[x635 4,066]

Besides the insurance issue, here's another positive that Somers has in their toolbox that helps make their firefighters some of the most skilled, and will help make for a good bridge between volunteer and career for cooperative training.

The Training Officer is a retired Fire Captain and a Nationaly Certified level 2 Instructor as well as a NYS Fire Instructor and a County Fire Instructor and has been the director of 2 Career Fire Academys in Westchester.

[LTNRFD 266]

ROFLMAO

Malone (Shawn Connery): "Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a knife(1 3/4") to a gun (2 1/2") fight".

I never knew we blew you out the back, thanks, makes the story even better.

I can only do so much !!!!! The 1 3/4" was all I could advance by myself. K.O. had to make sure Merc-O-Matic and Big Sal were OK.

[sympathomedic 383]

Wow, I cant believe someone in the emergency services field would make a comment like that. I believe your talking from your backside when you state you dont expect anyone to save your house (any fire we RESPOND to we risk our lives). You would be miserable and broken, not just sad if your FAMILY lost THEIR house. The statements you make are driven by personal economics. Why not get the fire services you deserve and pressure the towns politicians to do their job and cut from NON Essential services etc.. to afford what is your right to be provided. How long have you been in this buisness?

I think many of my guys in Somers probably would risk their lives. I am putting it right here what I have said in the station many times. I am not going to leave my wife a widow or my kids fatherless in order to fight a fire in a fully insured unoccupied building. I don't want anyone doing it for my house, paid, or volley. My wddding album and family pics are digitized and stored off site for that reason, as are every important document I have (including insurance policy.)

One of our guys DID lose everything in a fire about 2 years back. Two family members were home. He was miserable. Be helped him salvage. He got a rental, and his new home on same spot is magnificent!

In terms of cutting Town services: Maybe you missed it: We have a p-t PD with no night shift. They get no pensions. Our Town does NOT collect trash, we each have to hire a garbage co, so no fleet of trucks, mechanics ets. Our Town hiway has lost 4-5 positions since I moved in, and has not bought a new truck in over 4 years- for a town bigger than Manhattan. We pretty much have 1 real town park that runs constantly. It's access road and lot are crumbling. They closed the skateboard park as they could not run it. Our town hall was built in 1825. Annual Town budget is about $11,000,000 for a population of about 19000 people, BUT the FIRE DISRICT budget NOT included in that, is $2.8 million. So fire/EMS costs consume about 20% of all tax money collected at the Town level, excluding school taxes (which are biggest of the 3 by far).

I am curious, Sir and others. Can folks on this thread discover the same info for their Towns? What are you spending on fire and EMS and what is it as a % of collected taxes?

Remember in NY cities have true departments budgeted out by their municipalities. Villages may have true departments or Fire Protection Districts, the latter of which are considered sort of a vender under contract (the Fire Company works under contract with the village to handle the work). Town's may have Fire Districts, run by commissioners that operate fully free of Town officials input. These Districts set their own tax rate and budgets and ops. They answer to no one except 1 time a year, 2nd Tues in December, when ONE commissioner is up for election. Polls open 6PM to 9PM most districts. Yes that is right a 3 hour window to vote, in the dark, in the cold, frequently in bad weather, about 10 days before Christmas. Good thinking. Not a worse scenario to keep the public home and turnout low.

FYI the NYS OFPC tells me the single exception to this law in all of NYS is the Town of Mamaroneck. They are a Town and a Fire district, where the Town officials act as Fire Commissioners also. No info as to how or why this was done. Any one know?

[LTNRFD 266]

Bill

I'm curious to know what is your total tax bill?? School, fire, county etc......What is the size of your house....size of lot , sq ft of the house ...# of bedrooms and # of baths. Maybe you are not paying that much in taxes. I have a 1/2 acres lot, 2500 sq ft 4 bedroom 2 1/2 bath unfinished basement 2 car garage. My New Rochelle taxes ( city, school, county ,sewer, library etc) is about $19,000 for 2011. That is with STAR . If you are any where near that with the few services that you have mentioned, then you may have a point to your posts.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I guess it's up to the individual...I am a collector of lots of "stuff"...not a horder, mind you...just a lot of "stuff". I would like to know that the Fire Dept that covers my area gives me the best possible chance to save alot of that "stuff". Sure most of it can be replaced, some can't, but thats not the point. In the long run it's about "Peace Of Mind". Most folks dont think about that anymore in the world we live in today. My Gramps told me years ago, you can't put a price on "Peace of Mind". I'ts a shame in todays world most people would sell that away to save a few bucks. How much is peace of mind worth to you when you leave your family at home for the day? Sure sometimes things just dont work out on the fireground,it's part of the buisness, but wouldnt you want the very best chance available to you and your family of saving a life, your Home, or your "stuff" before the bell goes off?

[unleashedff248 3]

From what I have heard the latest ISO for Somers is a 5/9. Large portions of this town are without positive water sources. From what I understand (and it could be wrong) the ISO for these portions can never increase beyond a 9 unless water sources are installed.

My subjective and humble opinion: We've been doing better lately.

Remember: Having motivating and competent leadership is almost as important as having the manpower. Leaders can inspire people to get out and go on calls.

Despite this, I don't think it's terrible idea to look into these services right now. But I do believe there may be lower cost alternatives which accomplish similar goals but save taxpayer money. I'm not sure about NYS law, but what about a pay-per-call or paid-on-call program? I know a lot of departments use this to motivate people and offset costs for their personnel. Can anyone comment on this?

[x635 4,066]

I think many of my guys in Somers probably would risk their lives. I am putting it right here what I have said in the station many times.

I agree with your perspective and SOME of it's points in this latest post using your perspective. It's your opinion and you are absolutely allowed to have one. I like the way you look at some things, as we have been friends for many years. I remember you taking me to Somers House one day when we had a transport up to the area. I remember an Oren Engine that was falling apart, and a not very impressive fleet. This is around 1997-ish. I'vee gotten to know many of the great men and women of the department since then. The progress Somers has made in the 14 years after is incredible, despite the politics along the way. For example, I remember when Chief Byrnes led the effort to get Rescue 20, a much needed piece of apparatus designed to replace a 1993 Freightliner/Pierce Engine 183 that was never really designed to be a rescue engine carrying the increasing amount of equipment it did. I remember the pride and enthusiasm when it was delivered. I remember when the Tanker arrived, which was Somer's first real Tanker. The Somers house has always wanted and needed a more manuverable Quint to supplement TL-18, seems like they have one now. I remember a ton of things about Somers over the years that showed progress, and Somers is a completly different department then it was nowadays.

I've seen and been involved in the manpower shortages of Somers. But, my first memory of doing a call with them as a Paramedic working 45-M-2 was an operator of backhoe that lost it's footing, trapping him. The backyard was difficult to access. That's the incident. The part that really sticks out was the dedication and knowledge of the Somers crews on scene. The family was on scene very shaken up, and one member was very good at counseling them. I squeezed myself in with the patient (it was a stable backhoe at that point) and anything I asked for they assisted me with.His ankle was visibly broken, and I had to start an IV and administer pain meds. I was very impressed at the job they did after a 45 minute extrication. We then packaged him and transported him I think to WMC as a precaution. Very different personalties were on that scene that day, all of them with their own skillsets, and came together to be a fantastic working unit.

It seems the rest of the Town Of Somers seems like they don't have their act together. The Somers Fire Commisioners seem to be on the ball. Someone needs to figure out the PD thing, maybe contract with County PD? Life and safety should always come first. Thankfully, the Town Of Somers is prevented from making any decisions about FD and EMS.

[x635 4,066]

But I do believe there may be lower cost alternatives which accomplish similar goals but save taxpayer money. I'm not sure about NYS law, but what about a pay-per-call or paid-on-call program? I know a lot of departments use this to motivate people and offset costs for their personnel. Can anyone comment on this?

As far as the staffing solutions you proposed, those are just band aid solutions that won't solve anything and just procrastinate real staffing options.

I know some areas have paid-on-call systems, but that wouldn't work. REAL Volunteers don't do it for the money, especially pay per call. And, as other studies have concluded...that doesn't increase staffing, does not decrease response time,and in most cases, attract people who don't have the right reason in mind. The motivation should be there. That is the same to me as going the janitor route.

I'm not looking for this to be a paid vs. volunteer debate, but do have some opinions. Career Firefighter, it's a job but, because of the passion, it often goes beyond that. I know many Career Firefighters who volunteer, teach classes, etc. Volunteers should be doing it to serve the communities they live in. But, the difference between the two? You are assured that the manpower and response times are pretty much set. With volunteers, there are big variables.Having strong leadership is important, but that same leadership can't tell you when you can leave the district to go meet friends, or quit your job to stay in district. And that same strong leadership is vunerable when response times rise and manpower decreases no matter what they do.

This isn't about getting a cheap workaround. It's about building a future for a strong department to serve the community, not it's members. "Low Cost" isn't an alternative. "Right Way" is.

Bottom line. The Commisioners want to see an increase in manpower and decrease in response time to fire calls.

[Bnechis 3,961]

From what I have heard the latest ISO for Somers is a 5/9. Large portions of this town are without positive water sources. From what I understand (and it could be wrong) the ISO for these portions can never increase beyond a 9 unless water sources are installed.

Wrong. As I previously posted, their are depts with no hydrants that are ISO 4.

If you do not have hydrants you just have to prove to ISO that you are competent to handle a fire in the non hydrant areas.

ISO is an open book test and the PPC # represents your grade:

1 = 90-100%

2 = 80-89.9%

3 = 70-79.9%

4 = 60-69.9%

5 = 50-59.9%

6 = 40-49.9%

7 = 30-39.9%

8 = 20-29.9%

9 = 10-19.9%

10 = <10%

To go from a 10 (no department) to a 9 only requires a 250gpm mini attack and 4 volunteers.

Remember: Having motivating and competent leadership is almost as important as having the manpower. Leaders can inspire people to get out and go on calls.

Well said.

[FirNaTine 370]

Very well said. It made me think

You are correct in stating no one is risking their life to save some furniture and a flat panel TV and Bill may not expect the FD to save his home, but their are some other factors at work, which your post made me consider.

As a probie, I responded to a house fire at about 5am on a Sunday, it had been called in by a dog walker. I was on the 2nd due engine and upon our arrival we had a split level ranch with fire thru the roof and out many windows on the mid floor (kitchen,diniing/living room). Conditions were boarderline for an interior attack. The truck company forced the front door and then the garage. 2 cars were inside. That made everone think that the family might still be in there bedrooms. My LT. had us stretch a 2 1/2 to the front door and we made a push to the top of the stairs. We could not get down the hall to the bedrooms as conditions were bad and I kept feeling something hitting me (I found out later that it was roof slate, falling thru the attic. We were then ordered out and a ladder pipe knocked it down before we went back in. Once outside every window & the roof now had fire venting. I was not very hopeful for the family, when we pushed back down the hallway. It turned out that they were away.

What did we save? A bedroom and the family room in the basement. I remember gatthering some critical family items and putting them under a tarp. The letter from the family said we saved the 2 things they could not replace; The family photo albums and their family history files.

Fast forward to this summer, we had a house fire in the middle of the afternoon. Family was on the lawn as we arrived. Heavy fire on multiple floors. Our firefighters made an agressive search and attack which saved much of the home. I was at the CP when a FF came out with the families dog, unconsious and looking like a giant mop. EMS was able to revive the dog and the family made it pretty clear that what we did was the most important thing to them. They were insured and can rebuild, but you cant insure those things.

While insurance may help you rebuild, it will not make you whole.

Spot on Barry! Excellent post!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Annual Town budget is about $11,000,000 for a population of about 19000 people, BUT the FIRE DISRICT budget NOT included in that, is $2.8 million. So fire/EMS costs consume about 20% of all tax money collected at the Town level, excluding school taxes (which are biggest of the 3 by far).

Interesting numbers. While the cost of living up here is a bit cheaper (apparently much cheaper), I offer the following:

The FD I work for has 20 career positions and another 25 (or so) POC personnel. We run both Fire and EMS as well as a haz-mat tech team, con-space, etc. Our total incidents (not apparatus runs) are generally in the area of 2500, with 70% being EMS. Our tax liability to the community is $1.4 million after EMS revenue is taken out (about $2.2 mil. before that). The taxpayers will pay a total of $14.4 million for city services, so we're about 10% of the total budget. For this cost, they get full paramedic transport EMS and skilled fire service within 4.5 minutes average for any emergency incident. Our resident population is only about 7500, so the call volume is slightly disproportionate, though anticipated due to being regional service center community.

BTW: our PD has 22 personnel, and the total fulltime employee count is around 110.

[sympathomedic 383]

While Barry taught me how to quote a previous post in mine, I still can't to it multiple times.

To answer a previouse poster:

2,900 sq feet on .99 acre. 4BR. No outbuildings. No attic no finished basement. Wood frame. Yes I have STAR. I pay $9300 in School taxes (Just yesterday, matter of fact). Town tax bill= town, fire and EMS was $2900. I live in NO county district (sewer, solid waste, water, I have to fend for myself with all that stuff) I don't have the town/county FD breakdown, but I kinda sorta think it was about $500 fire, $1700 town and the rest county. I could be off, and I don't save the bill, just the proof of payment. That would jibe, though with my rough estimate of fire taxes as a % of total municipal tax burden.

I am still lost: with Barry's data, can we figure out how much a small 24/7 or weekday paid crew will cut the ISO for a SFR, and what that will = in terms of actual dollars? Does it come anywhere near enough to cover the investment in costs of that crew?

Ooh, one more thing: I cannot afford a flat panel. If I need high def, I go the the firehouse! Since I don't want to pay for MSG, HBO, starz or the like, my huge, boxy TV is fine. All I watch is news 12, and deadliest catch anyhow. I work about 50 to 60 hours a week at 4 jobs to live in Westchester, so no time for TV. Besides any spare time I have is now spent doing research for EMT Bravo posts. Meant to be funny, but it is true.

[Bnechis 3,961]

While Barry taught me how to quote a previous post in mine, I still can't to it multiple times.

Ok

When you want to quote 2 or more posts, lets say post 7 and post 14, click on the Multiple Quote button at the bottom of #7 then click it again under #14 (and continue as needed), then at the bottom of the page click "add reply" that will take you to the Posting box and you will see the seperate posts there.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I am still lost: with Barry's data, can we figure out how much a small 24/7 or weekday paid crew will cut the ISO for a SFR, and what that will = in terms of actual dollars? Does it come anywhere near enough to cover the investment in costs of that crew?

Improving an ISO 9 will require a lot of study and planning because even if you hired 1,000 FF's you will not change that 9 without proving you can move water, i.e Tanker Shuttles or relay pumping. You might also have to do a better job of setting up fill sites.

The personnel will dramatically effect the areas with a 5 (which as an open book test scores a 50-59.9%). In the 9 area we need to change the backward way we do things, then extra personnel will make a big difference.

To do the calculations requires knowing a whole lot more about the property value breakdown than we could ever do here. But that being said, if one is considering multi-million dollar budgets and a large increase it should be looked into.

If you move that 5 down to a 3 and the 9 down to a 5 (which is very achivable) you should save more than it costs. Thats the best I can tell you without spending 100's of hours researching it and charging you a consulting fee.

BTW. one of the biggest thing that holds the the 24 depts. with ISO 9 or splits with a 9 is the fact that we have too many local depts. Standardized tankers and standardized response make a huge difference in getting away from the 9. They must manuver the same, dump and fill the same and the same dump and fill times and volume. The also must be designed to dump and fill fast with fewer personnel than we use. Watching an ISO 4 dept fill tankers with only the tanker driver and not an extra engine company at the fill site works.

[ptwatson 82]

In my opinion if Somers is serious about this then they should have an independent review of their FD. Get an outside view of it then condiser what the consultants report finds.

[16fire5 693]

In my opinion if Somers is serious about this then they should have an independent review of their FD. Get an outside view of it then condiser what the consultants report finds.

They need a consultant to review the consultant?

[x635 4,066]

In my opinion if Somers is serious about this then they should have an independent review of their FD. Get an outside view of it then condiser what the consultants report finds.

That is exactly what Somers did, read earlier in this thead.

An independent review of the FD was done by a leading nationally known and proven Fire and EMS consulting firm . That is what this whole plan is based on, reccomendations from a consultant(s) that did a comprehensive review of Somers FD, and is continuing to do so.

Somers is acting on the reccomendations of the consulting firm. The main point, and I've said this over and over, is more firefighters, less response time. How to accomplish that is what they are working with the consultant on.

http://www.fitchassoc.com/

[Bnechis 3,961]

That is exactly what Somers did, read earlier in this thead.

An independent review of the FD was done by a leading nationally known and proven Fire and EMS consulting firm. That is what this whole plan is based on, reccomendations from a consultant(s) that did a comprehensive review of Somers FD, and is continuing to do so.

Somers is acting on the reccomendations of the consulting firm. The main point, and I've said this over and over, is more firefighters, less response time. How to accomplish that is what they are working with the consultant on. http://www.fitchassoc.com/

Seth, Fitch & Associates is the leading National EMS and Air Medical consulting firm. The words Fire, Rescue, ISO, NFPA, Suppression, etc. are not mentioned in any of the services they list. While it sounds like they have come up with so great ideas that cover a large portion of SFD services, as Bill pointed out; How do we pay for it? And as I pointed out this may or may not address the ISO savings which hiring alone will not cover.

[dadbo46 50]

BTW. one of the biggest thing that holds the the 24 depts. with ISO 9 or splits with a 9 is the fact that we have too many local depts. Standardized tankers and standardized response make a huge difference in getting away from the 9. They must manuver the same, dump and fill the same and the same dump and fill times and volume. The also must be designed to dump and fill fast with fewer personnel than we use. Watching an ISO 4 dept fill tankers with only the tanker driver and not an extra engine company at the fill site works.

What he said !

[x635 4,066]

Seth, Fitch & Associates is the leading National EMS and Air Medical consulting firm. The words Fire, Rescue, ISO, NFPA, Suppression, etc. are not mentioned in any of the services they list. While it sounds like they have come up with so great ideas that cover a large portion of SFD services, as Bill pointed out; How do we pay for it? And as I pointed out this may or may not address the ISO savings which hiring alone will not cover.

The Fire District has a lot of money. It's just not being spent in the right ways. One of the problems they are working on.

They do fire consulting as well. They have a number of high ranking and well educated fire chiefs and officers on their staff. This side of the business is already growing rapidly, but is not yet on their website, but soon will be. They want to find more knowledge, and I'm sure if you put in an application they could use someone like you for the ISO portion.

Also, lessons learned from EMS staffing can also be applied to the fire service as well. Just like an ambulance arriving timely in critical to save lives, so is a engine or ladder. We just witnessed that in Detroit. Much of their EMS research and lesssons learned can also be adapted to the fire service.

Somers has a responsibility to provide adequate fire and EMS services. That's what they are focusing on first. Without proper staffing, training, and response times, you're not going to have any use for the water supply first, as you can have all the water in the world, but if the pumper doesn't get there in a timely matter with properly trained staff, then the ISO is going to assume a higher risk for greater loss in the community. (Barry, I know you are an expert and have helped many departments improve their ISO ratings, and I mean no disrespect. Just going on my basic knowledge. I have no idea about any of the calculations)

Also, if Somers operates the water supply and distrubution, doesn't the town have some responsibility in the matter?

[wraftery 1,275]

Seth, Fitch & Associates is the leading National EMS and Air Medical consulting firm. The words Fire, Rescue, ISO, NFPA, Suppression, etc. are not mentioned in any of the services they list. While it sounds like they have come up with so great ideas that cover a large portion of SFD services, as Bill pointed out; How do we pay for it? And as I pointed out this may or may not address the ISO savings which hiring alone will not cover.

Look at the side of your fire engine. It used to say Fire Dept. Now it says Fire-Rescue Dept. It will soon say Rescue-Fire Dept.

Why not hire an EMS consulting firm if this is the direction the Fire Service is headed?

Ray Downey is probably rolling over in his grave at the number of people who think an ambulance is a Rescue Company.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Look at the side of your fire engine. It used to say Fire Dept. Now it says Fire-Rescue Dept. It will soon say Rescue-Fire Dept.

The one I just bought says Fire Dept. on it. And our EMS call % have been dropping, but not our fire side.

Why not hire an EMS consulting firm if this is the direction the Fire Service is headed?

I have no problem with hiring an EMS consultant to look at what it knows best. But what do they know about the fire side?

The insurance industry has basicly said that depts with an ISO 9 are not capabile of fighting a fire. Most depts. in Westchester with 9's have spent a lot of money on tankers and other equipment, but does an EMS consultant have the ability to address this?

Particularly since:

1) Taxpayer Bill does not want an increase

2) NYS Fire Districts may not bill for EMS (Fitch's specialty is maximizing billing)

3) ISO 9's pay the highest premiums while also paying for a fire dept.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Bnechis

[sympathomedic 383]

Barry: Quoting myself, "I know a (very) little about ISO... ISO will hold it against a department because they have different types of tanker fills and dumps? If Somers, Millwood, Katonah and Yorktown don't have identical or similar fills and dumps on their tankers but all can fill and dump in the same approved time frame they all lose points? Geeze.

As for the rest of your post, it sound like this is a pretty complex question - will money be saved?

Just some numbers: I now pay $500/ year to support the $2.8 million budget. I figure we would need 8 guys and a boss per tour, with two for EMS staffing. (BTW, 5 EMS per day, 90 minutes each, = about 7 hours/day, only a crew of 6 available, and only 4 if TWO EMS jobs running which is not infrequent). 4 shifts = 36 guys, plus 2 spares for vacation etc and a 1 Chief, at $140,000 a year each = $5.5 million per year in staff costs alone. Less the $200,000 saved by firing WEMS and some office staff = $5,300,000. In round numbers we would be tripling our district budget, which I assume would triple (300% increase) my fire taxes to $1,500, per year, or a $1000/year increase. My insurance bill is (updated #, I just looked it up) $1871/year. So unless the use of that paid crew would cause a insurance drop of over $1000/year or 60%, it does not make clean economic sense.

Do you think that amount of insurance cost decrease is feasible? That type of figuring is way out of my scope of practice!

[Bnechis 3,961]

ISO will hold it against a department because they have different types of tanker fills and dumps? If Somers, Millwood, Katonah and Yorktown don't have identical or similar fills and dumps on their tankers but all can fill and dump in the same approved time frame they all lose points? Geeze.

ISO does not look at it that way. You get no points for the tankers (thats why the 9). The issue is to change the 9 requires performance testing and while it can be done with different units, its much harder to meet the time requirements in the performance testing. If 1 tanker is slower than the others it slows the whole testing down. Even if its slower because it carrys and dumps more water, it drops the overall test time.

The other problem is most of the current tanker fill sites require 2-4 firefighters, these members DO NOT COUNT toward the minimum response to the fire. These members are needed at the fire scene, not the fill site.

As for the rest of your post, it sound like this is a pretty complex question - will money be saved?

Its very complex, thats why I said a solid study of it is needed.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Bnechis

[LTNRFD 266]

The one I just bought says Fire Dept. on it. And our EMS call % have been dropping, but not our fire side.

The one you just bought. With my tax dollars ????

Didn't you learn from when you bought the West Haven Rescue ?????

[x635 4,066]

I would just like to clarify something here.

Somers FD, and I'm getting tired of repeating this, is looking for more firefighters with less response time.

They are watching the numbers closely, and hoping that they come to an acceptable level. If the volunteers can do that and sustain it, there would be no need for Career Firefighter staffing.

And, EMS is doing pretty well in Somers. IF a paid crew was to be on duty, THEY WOULD NOT be used for EMS First response, since they are there to help the fire side of things.

ISO is not the issue being focused on at this immediate time. You can do all kinds of studies about ISO this and that, but at the same time you're not looking at your bread and butter role.

Fitch is looking at the ISO long term. BUT, it's building blocks. You can have the best water supply in the world, but if you don't have the right equipment, trained firefighters, and an acceptable response time, then I wouldn't even bother working on a better ISO rating. It's firefighters who take that water and put it one the fire. A number of things can be done to improves this, such as dry hydrants, underground storage tanks, etc. Somers also had numerous ponds and other natural bodies of water. But all that takes even more manpower with an acceptable response time to set up.

For instance, if they have to go with a paid crew, they would be first out the door with an engine. The volunteers could follow up quickly behind with the tanker out of Lincolndale followed by a ladder, and hopefully tankers out of Granite Springs and Amawalk, whichever is closest. Or a pumper-tanker for those water challenged stations. Does a Pumper-Tanker factor into ISO?

I don't know if what I said makes sense, I'm sure Barry will correct me. To note, Barry has helped his department and other departments improve their ISO ratings, and created long term plans for this. I only have a basic understanding.

I understand about taxes, but if Somers residents are willing too let their neighbors die and homes burn to the ground while they fight about this for 20 years, then so be it.

[x635 4,066]

(Fitch's specialty is maximizing billing)

That's where they got their start, but not anymore. They are heading in a variety of different directions. Billing and finances are still important, because agencies need funding.

A lot of their work can be easily interchangable with EMS stuff as well.

http://fitchassoc.com/questions-brownouts.html