Somers Looking To Hire Career Firefighters?

[Engfire 0]

I know that everyone whats career firefighters, but I understand that cost would be high, so does NYS law allow for part-time Fire and EMS that could act as daytime staffing.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

See the trend?

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2010 = 2086

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2009 = 1947

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2008 = 1890

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2007 = 1868

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2006 = 1673

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2005 = 1729

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2004 = 1510

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2003 = 1436

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2002 = 1356

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2001 = 1158

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2000 = 1198

Whats the break down between Fire calls (include mva's as fire calls) and ambulance runs?

[sympathomedic 383]

As an SVFD member, I get an annual list of the calls I go to. I believe that it has the fire and EMS breakdown of total alarms for the department on it. I think MVA's are considered EMS runs for that purpose. I am not sure if fire runs are broken into sub cats like the flooded basements, water/scuba stuff, outside odors and the other 95% of the volume that makes up non-fire emergency stuff we get called for. If I get a chance n the nest few days, I will break out the binder and try to answer that question. I can tell you that EMS calles have been the driver for increasing call volume, just like the rest of America. I saw a stat that the number of FIRES in America has dropped 1% each year for the last 30 years. That stat pre-dates the advent of the self extinguishing cigarette. 30,000 fires a year are (or were) started by cigarettes. In the same time, US EMS demands have gone up 247%.(yes two hundred forty seven) These are New York Times stats, so they are suspect. Check FOX news for "fair and balanced" numbers!

[x635 4,066]

From the Fitch Study:

Calls have been analyzed for the past several years. They are currently 700-800 a year, on the fire and rescue side, not including EMS calls. The trend for both are growing, and man/woman power is shrinking. Fitch is continuing to study the numbers and analyze the trends. There will be an update to the recommendations in December.

The first step, recommended, is to hire a Fire District Manager, which would handle the business and bridge end of the operation. This person would also do HR and payroll, amongst other things. Most likely, this will be a person with a Master’s Degree in HR, familiar with the fire service, with familiarity with NYS and Westchester Civil Service laws and procedure, and also manage the fire district. This is a big and important role to fill. Look for this early 2012.

Let's remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. What I'm saying is that right now, Somers is building a solid foundation the right way. This will evolve over time, both in the near and distant future. They are taking it step by step, as I have explained in my posts. Also, keep in mind Fitch is a national Fire and EMS consulting firm, and has been hired by many fire and EMS agencies to address the issues, fix them, and create a plan for success. Fitch provides the Commisioners with reccomendations upon their findings and this is a continuous study.

EMS calls are growing, and technology is decreasing structural fire calls. Cigarette smoking as a cause is down, but so is smoking itself. Fire education, prevention, codes, sprinklers, alarms, etc all have helped to decrease structural fires. But not and never completly. Somers consists of a large IBM and Pepsi corporate facility, a large residential community with wood frame garden style dwellings, dangerous roads, a large nursing home, numerous types of schools, retail, etc. Let's also not forget the resivoir and the hazardous materials trucked through Somers. The role of a firefighter is ever evoloving. Where fires have dropped, new construction methods and materials have made firefighting more dangerous then ever before. A lot of these facilities and community house people 55+, and some invalids, which are helpless in case of a fire, and in the nursing home alone, an evacuation could be a major incident. It's all a betting game-people think something can't happen and then suprise, it does. Firefighters are also tasked with saving peoples possesions and homes and businesses. While it is all "replaceable", saving structures and possesions from being completly destroyed means a lot to people. If we were to let every structure burn to the ground, insurance rates would skyrocket. A quick knockdown and removal of valuables has time and time again proven to be important to people.

Also, think about the weather. That often causes havoc in Somers.

Again, kudos to Somers FD, and the Board Of Commissioners for being proactive in providing top-quality service to residents of their fire district.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).

Thats about what I pay, but "fire and EMS" is at $435 and its a fully paid system. Plus I save on my ISO rating.

At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either.

Then you are statistically way over due. I suspect a large number of SFD's calls are for other than structure fires. I hope no one you know ever has any other issues that a prompt response would be important.

I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire.

And you've worked as a medic for how long?

I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value.

Thats good, because it sounds like your expectations meet the current conditions.

I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it.

Can you tell me: "What is the cost of fire protection"?

[Healz 30]

Bravo, well said!

But what is the true cost does SFD have an awards program?

Edited September 29, 2011 by Healz

[FirNaTine 370]

As an SVFD member, I get an annual list of the calls I go to. I believe that it has the fire and EMS breakdown of total alarms for the department on it. I think MVA's are considered EMS runs for that purpose. I am not sure if fire runs are broken into sub cats like the flooded basements, water/scuba stuff, outside odors and the other 95% of the volume that makes up non-fire emergency stuff we get called for. If I get a chance n the nest few days, I will break out the binder and try to answer that question. I can tell you that EMS calles have been the driver for increasing call volume, just like the rest of America. I saw a stat that the number of FIRES in America has dropped 1% each year for the last 30 years. That stat pre-dates the advent of the self extinguishing cigarette. 30,000 fires a year are (or were) started by cigarettes. In the same time, US EMS demands have gone up 247%.(yes two hundred forty seven) These are New York Times stats, so they are suspect. Check FOX news for "fair and balanced" numbers!

EMS has gone up 247% and what percentage of those calls are taxi rides to the Hospital and non-life threatening. Many of the EMS runs we do on my Job are B.S. and it's ashame the plan was implemented just to build up our runs cause fires are down. We now do more responses with less equipment and manpower. Where's the justification in that?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I am pretty sure most paid/combo departments have some type of civilain office staff. I believe Eastchester does, as does Mohegan, to cite two examples- and they are full timers, so lets just say that 1 full timer= 2 part timers, but full timers get BENEFITS that SFD part timers do not, and benefits = pension, medical etc and that is pricey, so lets say that ONE FT = 3 PT's.

Yes most have 1 full timer (who also work for the district) your list was 4 or 5 part timers and later you mentioned how little they each did. Also they often get paid much less than a firefighter and get a 401k not a pension,

If they are willing to go to 4 firehouses and sweep, mop, clean the bathrooms, refill the soap and toilet paper, take out the trash,(the two larger stations get a LOT of traffic) then another $14,000 might be found, but you know where that will go (see above).

Every career FD I know has to do this, at least till they get promoted (one reason to study).

If the proposed new firemen would do construction projects and building maintenance on the 4 stations- change light bulbs, fix broken plumbing fixtures, unclog drains indoor and outdoors, fix broken windows, doors and gutters, build and install fixtures like bulletin boards, shelving and hose racks, battery chargers and lights, do minor electric work and painting, change AC and furnace filters and change the exhaust system filters, build or tear down the occasional wall and do interior remodeling, then the part time maintenence guy could go, freeing up about $20,000. I know some paid firemen do some of that stuff, but I don't think they do all of it. If not, then someone will need to stay on the payroll to do it.

Vary's from dept to dept. but, many of the items listed are done by career members. I know our guys have completely renovated kitchens, tiled, built BBQ's, painted, electrical work etc. And the few items listed can be contracted for (cheaper than hiring).

BTW: in terms of double taxing, its about to get worse! The SFD is in the process of a HUGE radio upgrade with several remote radio sites and coordinated receivers and transmitting ability from the 4 stations. All while the County radios sit idle in our rigs and dispatch desk. So: taxes bought the big county system which Somers opts not to use, and taxes are buying the Somers system, for the paid dispatchers to use.

Brilliant

I pay about $1200 a year in total home insurance. The policy defies my ability to understand it. It talks about how much they will pay to fix it, rebuild it etc, but they do NOT say how much of that $12,000 is for fire protection.

I pay about 45% less for home insurance, I cant compare fire vs. liability to yours, but I suspect the liability & theft should be abouth the same, and I do know that the difference in ISO ratings (2 vs 9) happens to be approximatly 56%.

One thing I do know: I get a 2% surcharge on my insurance to fund my VFD benevolent association!! They do buy me dinner once a year, and the way I eat, I come out ahead on that one.

Everyone in NYS who's fire insurance company is not in NYS also pays the 2%

I know a (VERY) little about ISO. would 4 guys, M-F days really get me a %10 drop in insurance? Coming from a station 10 minutes away to an area with out hydrants or ponds?

Good question, its very hard to answer if that would do it or not. However, in the country the best rated dept. without hydrants and 100% volunteer (but with very solid manning)is an ISO 4 which would be a 40% savings.

Its clear that a department with a 9 (on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being no fire dept.) can do better. Will career personnel solve the problem? I don't know, because there are many other factors, but it is clear that change is needed.

When our District Commissioners were asked that question in August 2010 at a Town Board meeting, they said that Somers call volume was too high, and its dispatching need to complex to be handles by the county. I was there myself to hear it. They said that Somers follows a set of protcols that have been established and adjusted over years, and the County would not work with them.

60 Control's call volume is over 95,000 and SFD's is a little over 2% of 60's. If SFD's volume is too high/complex then how can they manage New Rochelle's which is 4.5 times more or Eastchester's which is about 2 times more. I guess the other depts don't have protocols, many of which were established and adjusted over the years.

I am not surprised by this attitude, 20 years ago the SFD Board stated that they did not want free paramedic service (paid for by IBM & Pepsi) and they stated that the reason was: "the residence of Somers don't want paramedics when they are having a heart attack, they want people they know to hold their hands as they are transported". Most of us at that hearing never expected that.

[38ff 250]

I guess the days of Walter dispatching (you could barely understand him when he got excited) and Davey fixing the appartatus (God Bless his soul) are long gone.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Why does Somers dispatching and communications have so much more complexity then the rest of the county, other then the fact you tone out every 2 minutes until a unit is responding?

911 is received , dispatch goes out, units respond, call is handled accordingly, units clear.

Have you ever paid attention to the time delay in when either yourself or another agency asks for mutual aid to or from your department? Minutes go by. Switching over to the county will save your tax payers money, include the same services you already have (with the exception of unlocking the diesel pump - god forbid), reduce your M/A times, and increase your interoperatibilty with the rest of the county.

http://www.electstevepilla.com/?page_id=19 If the rest of your board feels this way about 60-control, you guys really need to get your facts straight...

[BigBuff 27]

Why does Somers dispatching and communications have so much more complexity then the rest of the county, other then the fact you tone out every 2 minutes until a unit is responding?

911 is received , dispatch goes out, units respond, call is handled accordingly, units clear.

Have you ever paid attention to the time delay in when either yourself or another agency asks for mutual aid to or from your department? Minutes go by. Switching over to the county will save your tax payers money, include the same services you already have (with the exception of unlocking the diesel pump - god forbid), reduce your M/A times, and increase your interoperatibilty with the rest of the county.

http://www.electstevepilla.com/?page_id=19 If the rest of your board feels this way about 60-control, you guys really need to get your facts straight...

Also they get a weekly pager test and several announcments every sunday at 8:15 ( i know this because I have 4 radios and i work for dispatching) they wouldn't have those messages, and M/A would save about 1-2 minutes. Private dispatching all over the counties are different. If they need a FAST Team they contact 60-control and they dispatch them ASAP. If they need M/A when dispatched by 60-Control, maybe save a minute or so. Thats not worth getting rid of organized dispatching. Back in the old days, I heard, trying to get a ladder out the door took 5-6 minutes. I know it has improved now.

I am for both sides. The messages every sunday probably help the members know whats going on, with 60 control they will have to manually find out. I do believe the career ff's is a good idea, just the dispatching part concerns me a little bit. I also hear a lot of overlapping. Like 60 dispatching, then some other town/city engine radioes in ( probably can't hear do to the loudness of the trucks) and cuts out half of the dispatch.

Somers does take a few to get a truck out, but the main reason is the drivers are trying to get there but have to : 1. wait at every light 2. get through traffic 3. wait for manpower. Sometimes i hear 4 dispatches for towns and not one chief, captian, truck signs on.

I am (again) on both sides.

[16fire5 693]

That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter).

Think about the motorist trapped in their car. This crew will get them out faster saving lives. I'm sure a paramedic can relate to that.

I would be a little leary of the $7 smoke detector. Hard wired wireless linked and dual sensors are available. They have ones that talk to your kids because it's proven to work.

[Bnechis 3,961]

http://www.electstevepilla.com/?page_id=19 If the rest of your board feels this way about 60-control, you guys really need to get your facts straight...

I reviewed this list and found a few issues:

Of 22 comparison points, 6 both do. So we are down to 16 services that 60 control will not do for SFD.....hmmmmmm lets look at them:

1)MOBILE TERMINAL DISPATCHING - Technically true, but we have figured out how it can be done.

2)MONITORING BUILDINGS VIDEO’S - True, but how important is that?

3)PROVIDE PAST CALL HISTORY - They do it for everyone else

4)PROVIDE HYDRANT LOCATIONS - They do it for everyone else

5)PROVIDE CALL HISTORY ALERTS - They do it for everyone else

6)PROVIDE CROSS STREETS - They do it for everyone else

7)DISPATCH ACCORDING TO SVFD SOG’S - They do it for everyone else

8)ANNOUNCE SPECIAL MESSAGES - True

9)SECURES BUILDINGS WITH 42 CAMERAS - True (but does not count, since it is basicly the same as #2

10)SECURING ALL DOORS REMOTELY - Wow, crime must be a real problem in that town, None of the city depts have this.

11)CONVERT MDT COMMENTS TO ALERTS FOR FUTURE CALLS. - They do it for everyone else

12)I.M. TO MOBILE TERMINALS - True, is this really important?

13)TURN ON THE FINGER READERS - Is this important? Our tone units can be set up so 60 Control can turn on lights, open doors, etc. I would think it could do this.

14)START RUN AND EVENTS NUMBERS FOR LOSAP - They do it for everyone else

15)24/7 EMERGENCY SAFE HAVEN FOR THE TOWN OF SOMERS - True. How many times has this been utilized?

16)IN HOUSE MUTUAL AID FOR NURSING HOMES AND DOCTORS OFFICE - They do it for everyone else What a huge stretch, this refered to the fact that WEMS is dispatching its own comercial ambulances to calls when SFD can't get out. Its claimed that this improved response time by 1 hour. When we have calls beyond the number of ambulances, 60 tones out mutual aid, including commercial services.

So of the 16 things that is claimed that 60 does not do:

8 they do

1 is a repeat

2 can be done thru other means

so we are now down to 5 minor things (and 1 may have never been utilized) How much does this cost the taxpayer?

Now I know a list of services that 60 Control has that SFD does not.........

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" - Snotty

[x635 4,066]

MODERATION NOTE

As to not distract from the thread or derail it with potential inflamatory one liners that may occur from it,

"REP POINT" TOPIC SPLIT INTO IT'S OWN THREAD IN THE "EMTBRAVO WEBSITE AND INFORMATION" SECTION

[Goose 188]

2K +/- jobs a year (with the majority, I'm sure, being EMS) all of this seems like overkill...

[x635 4,066]

2K +/- jobs a year (with the majority, I'm sure, being EMS) all of this seems like overkill...

700-800 FIRE calls a year. This includes structural fires, vehicle fires, brush fires, rescues, automotive extrication, HazMat, Water Rescue, etc. Due to EMS being so strong in Somers, there may or may not be EMS First Response, unless it is a priority call (Cardiac and respiratory arrest) or a lift assist.

And, the trend shows the fire related calls increasing, and manpower decreasing.

There are some career and combination departments in Westchester that do less fire related calls, and rarely have structure fires or rescues excluding mutual aid.

So, how is this proactive study "overkill"?

[firedude 985]

Got some questions... How many Somers FD/EMS calls go to Heritage Hills? It seams that a they are a frequent destination for SVFD. Also can 80B1 go mutual aid if requested?

I do however applaud Somers for looking into this and making the protection of lives and property first.

Edited September 30, 2011 by firedude

[Goose 188]

700-800 FIRE calls a year. This includes structural fires, vehicle fires, brush fires, rescues, automotive extrication, HazMat, Water Rescue, etc. Due to EMS being so strong in Somers, there may or may not be EMS First Response, unless it is a priority call (Cardiac and respiratory arrest) or a lift assist.

And, the trend shows the fire related calls increasing, and manpower decreasing.

There are some career and combination departments in Westchester that do less fire related calls, and rarely have structure fires or rescues excluding mutual aid.

So, how is this proactive study "overkill"?

I'm not talking about the study. And my statement had nothing to do career or volunteer departments. I guess the whole operation seems like overkill to me. 2,100 runs is substantial, but not out of control - especially if less than 1,000 are fire related (given that the EMS problem was corrected apparently). The mechanic, the cleric, the stand alone dispatching...it just seems like overkill to me. Just my opinion.

[x635 4,066]

I'm not talking about the study. And my statement had nothing to do career or volunteer departments. I guess the whole operation seems like overkill to me. 2,100 runs is substantial, but not out of control - especially if less than 1,000 are fire related (given that the EMS problem was corrected apparently). The mechanic, the cleric, the stand alone dispatching...it just seems like overkill to me. Just my opinion.

Yes, you are talking about the study. I'll reiterate some of my points I made earlier in this thread.

Somers has a large and diverse fleet. The mechanic is also responsible for all the small engine repair, taking vehicles to the repair facilities and a whole bunch of other equipment related responilities. It may not seem like much to you, but spend a day with the mechanic....you'll see how much work he has.

Dispatch would be "outsourced" to 60 Control at some point.

As far as clerical, they are needed for paperwork, such as billing, entering run reports such as NIFFRS, keeping personel records, fire district paperwork, and other administrative matters. In a Fire District like Somers, this is important. Many other career and volunteer departments have administrative staff.

And, once again, you don't feel 800 fire runs is out of control is not the subject. The trend is that the call volume is increasing, and volunteers decreasing. That also leads to increase response time. Somers is required to provide "adequate" fire protection to the Citizens of Somers. It's also a firefighter safety issue.

For example, if there was a fire, and a rescue was needed, a lot of manpower is required. You need a truck company to search, and ventilate so that some heat and smoke can escape, making conditions inside easier for the crews. If a rescue is reuired, you need to carry that out You need someone to hook into a hydrant, or in many cases in Somers, establish a water supply like a tanker shuttle. You need someone to work the pump panel. You need at least 2 firefighters for a line. You need a RIT. This all requires manpower, and sometimes the first due isn't enough. And in Somers, being such a large fire district, your second due companies or mutual aid may take a while.

Also, included in the fire calls are automotive extrication, search and rescue, HazMat, amongst many other types of calls.

Somers is being proactive with staffing. It could be 1 call a year, or several thousand. If you don't have the manpower or an adequate response time, people die. Period, end of story. And that not acceptable to the Board Of Commisioners, so they hired a nationally reconized and proven consulting firm to assist them in improving. I know career departments that do less then 800 calls a year and are much smaller then Somers. The volunteers in Somers are excellent and dedicated, and this is to enhance and assist them.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).

My home is made out of wood and there are no hydrants in my immediate neighborhood, though a recent water project put one in about 1800 feet away. At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. (other than going as a fireman) No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either. I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire. I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value. We in Somers do not use the F.I.T. devices that allow 1 man to knock down a fire.

I do not want anyone risking their lives to save my house. It is insured. I have no ability to pay yearly taxes to fund a crew of firemen that may or may not be available (due to calls) to come and successfully/unsuccessfully save my home. I am told that the "loaded cost" of 1 fireman is about $140,000 per year (salary, pension, workers comp, OT for vacation/training, days off, sick time etc) So a small ( 4 guys- gotta have 2 in 2 out, right?)crew will cost me about 1/2 million dollars a year. Our Somers Town Budget is about $11 million dollars/year. The SFD budget is about 2.8 million, though they have managed to save over 4 million in various special accounts. (I have heard of tax and spend, but the SFD taxes and puts it in the bank!) So $500,000 every year in costs for the small daytime crew represent about a 20% increase in spending for the District. That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter). Since I am a 10 minute firetruck drive from the main station, I would probably have to do that anyway.

I am really sorry. I would love to see everyone get a great job as a paid fireman. I would love to have a standing army of highly trained and well equipped first responders in our four stations staffing 2 ladders, 5 engines a heavy rescue and a tanker. May as well throw in the scuba truck and ATV thingy too. I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it. I will be careful to not overload any wires. I will keep the chimney clean. I will hope for the best. At 45 years old, I will be moving into assisted living in another 30 years or so. Hopefully I'll make it, house intact, then they can hire as many firemen as they want.

So since when is basing working structural fires the only argument made for better customer service? And while nice you don't want anyone risking their life to save your house...you're the minority in comparison to what most people want and expect. While I know many politicians and city managers that would applaud your thought process, how about an all hazards approached based on staffing levels and regardless of flames, smoke, odor or not...everyone deserves consistant timely services. There are plenty of things that having career staffing could supplement services in the Town/district...800 fire calls...great...but lets talk reality and common sense. BLS first reponse on EMS calls which don't get me going because I will debate making if not all but at least 2 of per shift ALS, have career supervision and make them the district training officer to consolidate and make training consistent district wide. Get them what they need to be code compliance officers and have them supplement town building inspections for the annual public assembly/day care inspection requirements. So there are plenty of things that staffing would get the best bang for their buck. All while working within a combination department that the system is supplemented by the volunteer members.

As far as 60 control goes...I've heard every excuse under the sun but find it funny so many agencies utilize them and things run smoothly with no issues that you wouldn't deal with no matter who was dispatching..things happen. Get over it. Most of the issues and excuses are on the end of those who have issues and excuses with preconceived notions and opinions. Much of the current status of call taking and dispatching falls on the fire and ems services of this county. So for those of you who were around and had voices in the early 90's as 911 was being implemented...awesome fragmented job...the stalwart of Westchester County Fire and EMS. That's why there are the number of PSAP's in this county instead of what it should have been...4 or 5 maximum. Never seen so many islands in a county with no water around them.

[sympathomedic 383]

So since when is basing working structural fires the only argument made for better customer service? And while nice you don't want anyone risking their life to save your house...you're the minority in comparison to what most people want and expect. While I know many politicians and city managers that would applaud your thought process, how about an all hazards approached based on staffing levels and regardless of flames, smoke, odor or not...everyone deserves consistant timely services. There are plenty of things that having career staffing could supplement services in the Town/district...800 fire calls...great...but lets talk reality and common sense. BLS first reponse on EMS calls which don't get me going because I will debate making if not all but at least 2 of per shift ALS, have career supervision and make them the district training officer to consolidate and make training consistent district wide. Get them what they need to be code compliance officers and have them supplement town building inspections for the annual public assembly/day care inspection requirements. So there are plenty of things that staffing would get the best bang for their buck. All while working within a combination department that the system is supplemented by the volunteer members.

As far as 60 control goes...I've heard every excuse under the sun but find it funny so many agencies utilize them and things run smoothly with no issues that you wouldn't deal with no matter who was dispatching..things happen. Get over it. Most of the issues and excuses are on the end of those who have issues and excuses with preconceived notions and opinions. Much of the current status of call taking and dispatching falls on the fire and ems services of this county. So for those of you who were around and had voices in the early 90's as 911 was being implemented...awesome fragmented job...the stalwart of Westchester County Fire and EMS. That's why there are the number of PSAP's in this county instead of what it should have been...4 or 5 maximum. Never seen so many islands in a county with no water around them.

Wow, I was away for a few days, so there is some catching up to do: I am in favor of customer service. I wish I could get a few cops to my home in a few minutes like many other towns can do. My town has a part time, day only PD, ans a single trooper car at night. What kind of customer service is that going to provide? I can only afford to buy a certain amount of customer service, so I have to be a good consumer and choose wisely. At $140,000/year/fireman and two fires a year in a town with 20,000 or so residents, I am afraid I can't make you all happy and buy, say, a dozen.

Barry: OK, ya got me on the "how long have you been a medic?" answer to my never having met anyone saved from a fire. In retrospect, I have met several dead bodies pulled out, and RMA'd some others. In 29 years on the bus I bet I have taken, I dunno 12 fire victims. Thinking more about it, many of them were folks who set themselves on fire with stoves, gasoline, cleaning products or other situations in which there was not a fire on anything but them. I'll admit, this is a dumb arguement. Yes people are on occasion rescued from fires alive and live to recover. Conceded. As to your taxes- I bet you live in a more dense district than I, and it has losts of taxpayers in it to pay for service. Somers has many HUGE parks (Lasdon, Muscoot, North County Trail, Anglebrook)and resevoirs that don't pay taxes, but suck up a lot of real estate. Can you look at your policy and tell me how much of your premium goes to insure for fire loss? I looked at mine and no way can I tell.

When folks on this thread talk about a % of savings based on ISO reduction, is that a % of the ENTIRE premium or just the portion of the premium that goes for fire loss? The answer to that goes a long way in figuring out if more firemen = money spent or saved, and I don't have that answer.

As for SFD dispatch claims by Pilla; He is no longer a commissioner. I ran a very successful campaign to get him out. I got the first non SVFD member in history onto the board, Jim Arena. Pilla was serving with no pay as a commissioner and spending tons of $$ on his pet projects (his words) of dispatch and the radio upgrade. GUESS WHAT?? upon his defeat, the SFD HIRED him as a paid staffer to continue that work! Now he gets in the %15- 20,000 year range to work on keeping dispatch and upgrade the radio system with grant money that politicians pandering to the fire service lavish on us (after first borrowing it from China). There is NO defense of the SFD decisions as to how they choose to spend money for dispatch service. One must note that one SFD commissioner is full time employed as a dispatcher for WEMS. Hmmm...

Heritage Hills: From vafrious things I have seen, Heritage does NOT consume a disproportionately amount of service. This may be because many of their residents leave in the winter.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As far as clerical, they are needed for paperwork, such as billing, entering run reports such as NIFFRS, keeping personel records, fire district paperwork, and other administrative matters. In a Fire District like Somers, this is important. Many other career and volunteer departments have administrative staff.

Yes clerical work is important but 5 part timers (2.5 FTE), how much billing work could there be? I can think of a number of districts that are much busier and 1 FTE handles it all.

Entering NIFR'S thats the job of the officer incharge on the call, how can someone who was not on the call write it up? I handle the admin end of that and for 8,000-9000 calls it takes about an hour per month, if it were only 2,000 calls it would be 15 minutes per month.

We have 2.5 FTE's, we are 4.5 times larger and we also run 150 member EMS/CME program (lots of paper work there), the city wide fire inspection program (Somers building dept does that), 150+ member payroll, and 1,000's of annual permits and renewels (oil tanks, oil burners, hazmat, public assembly, and most commercial occupancies) which in Somers, if issued are by the building dept.

And, once again, you don't feel 800 fire runs is out of control is not the subject. The trend is that the call volume is increasing, and volunteers decreasing. That also leads to increase response time. Somers is required to provide "adequate" fire protection to the Citizens of Somers. It's also a firefighter safety issue.

Well said. Too many depts forget or ignor this.

Somers is being proactive with staffing. It could be 1 call a year, or several thousand. If you don't have the manpower or an adequate response time, people die. Period, end of story. And that not acceptable to the Board Of Commisioners, so they hired a nationally reconized and proven consulting firm to assist them in improving. I know career departments that do less then 800 calls a year and are much smaller then Somers. The volunteers in Somers are excellent and dedicated, and this is to enhance and assist them.

Agreed, well said.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As to your taxes- I bet you live in a more dense district than I, and it has losts of taxpayers in it to pay for service. Somers has many HUGE parks (Lasdon, Muscoot, North County Trail, Anglebrook)and resevoirs that don't pay taxes, but suck up a lot of real estate.

Yes my city is about 5 times the density, but our FD costs are about 12 times yours, so even with the denity and higher budget, our costs lower. Plus we provide many other services that Somers is not. Consider that we have anywhere from 14 to 30 cops (& civilians) on duty depending on the shift. so at 5x the density we are providing 15x (or more) the level of service. While you have Huge parks, they generally do not require much services, we on the other hand have IONA and CNR campus's which pay $0 in tax and we have to provide lots of service to them. We also have 3 resevoirs that dont pay and many other locations too.

Can you look at your policy and tell me how much of your premium goes to insure for fire loss? I looked at mine and no way can I tell.

Its designed that way, hard to question what one can't figure out. No I can not tell.

When folks on this thread talk about a % of savings based on ISO reduction, is that a % of the ENTIRE premium or just the portion of the premium that goes for fire loss? The answer to that goes a long way in figuring out if more firemen = money spent or saved, and I don't have that answer.

You are correct. It depends on the underwriter, but if you look at my figures you will find it looks close to the total, based on the %'s.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I've seen home owners insurance discussed as well as not wanting anyone to risk their lives to save what you can rebuilt. That's a little short sighted, don't you think? What about when you wake up in the middle of the night and your exit is blocked by fire and smoke? No one is risking their life to save some furniture and a flat panel TV. We're here to save lives and to do that, you need to get in there and search and extinguish the fire. You might live in a single story ranch, but what about the guy who lives in the attic apartment who's windows are 30' off the ground? How about the person who is overcome by CO in their sleep and could still be rescued and resuscitated?

We're a tool box. Hopefully we're a bottomless one, and can mitigate whatever issue it is tasked with. If managed correctly (career or volunteer) we can be the best insurance policy money can buy. However, to do that we must respond quickly and with adequate staffing.

Edited September 30, 2011 by M' Ave

[efdcapt115 1,511]

At $140,000/year/fireman and two fires a year in a town with 20,000 or so residents, I am afraid I can't make you all happy and buy, say, a dozen.

Firefighters, career or volunteer, are not a commodity that you "buy." Would you phrase your wording similarly if you were talking about firefighters who happened to be black? Would you still consider saying "buy a dozen?"

I find your comment to be demeaning and degrading. No matter what our color; firefighters are not bought. We are human beings that perform in one of the few noble professions left in this country, along with police officers and other public servants.

Contrary to your opinion, most people when asked still consider firefighters and cops to be well worth the cost of their salaries. The majority of our citizens know there are only a certain few professionals, who when called upon are ready to risk everything to help, to undertake the function of protecting life and property that we swore an oath to perform.

You want to buy something, go to the grocery store.

[sympathomedic 383]

Firefighters, career or volunteer, are not a commodity that you "buy." Would you phrase your wording similarly if you were talking about firefighters who happened to be black? Would you still consider saying "buy a dozen?"

I find your comment to be demeaning and degrading. No matter what our color; firefighters are not bought. We are human beings that perform in one of the few noble professions left in this country, along with police officers and other public servants.

Contrary to your opinion, most people when asked still consider firefighters and cops to be well worth the cost of their salaries. The majority of our citizens know there are only a certain few professionals, who when called upon are ready to risk everything to help, to undertake the function of protecting life and property that we swore an oath to perform.

You want to buy something, go to the grocery store.

115 I in no way meant to demean in the way you attributed. I appologize to you and anyone that felt I was doing so. I meant to say that the individuals who perform FD work are fairly costly and they deserve it(the money they earn), agreed? That being agreed to (I hope) my point throughout the thread is: Paid firemen are costly, my taxes are high, there are very few emergencies in my town that could be effectively mitigated by a small crew in a very spread out town, (larger than Manhattan, many non hydrant areas), despite the $170,000 needless expense of dispatch and the appx $100,000 for office staff that might by re-channeled to cover the costs for paid firemen; there is $270,000, which at $140,000 loaded cost = a tad less then the cost of two firemen) the proposition to spend many dollars to hire a small group of folks who would have a tiny chance they would be effective in the small likelihood of a fire and that makes it not worth it.

I see crime and the lack of PD resources in Somers a much larger issue, and IF I had the money to spend, that is where it would go.

I heard a politician discuss the the tx/budget issues in NYS and he said "As long as New Yorkers maintain their insatiable thirst for services, we will not be able to reduce taxes in a meaningful way." Unpopular as it might be an a fire site, I am no longer thirsty. My guess is many taxpay/service consumers feel or the same way, or will soon and municipal pension costs expand greatly in the nest few years.

As usual, I invoke the right to be wrong.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I've seen home owners insurance discussed as well as not wanting anyone to risk their lives to save what you can rebuilt. That's a little short sighted, don't you think? What about when you wake up in the middle of the night and your exit is blocked by fire and smoke? No one is risking their life to save some furniture and a flat panel TV. We're here to save lives and to do that, you need to get in there and search and extinguish the fire. You might live in a single story ranch, but what about the guy who lives in the attic apartment who's windows are 30' off the ground? How about the person who is overcome by CO in their sleep and could still be rescued and resuscitated?

We're a tool box. Hopefully we're a bottomless one, and can mitigate whatever issue it is tasked with. If managed correctly (career or volunteer) we can be the best insurance policy money can buy. However, to do that we must respond quickly and with adequate staffing.

Very well said. It made me think

You are correct in stating no one is risking their life to save some furniture and a flat panel TV and Bill may not expect the FD to save his home, but their are some other factors at work, which your post made me consider.

As a probie, I responded to a house fire at about 5am on a Sunday, it had been called in by a dog walker. I was on the 2nd due engine and upon our arrival we had a split level ranch with fire thru the roof and out many windows on the mid floor (kitchen,diniing/living room). Conditions were boarderline for an interior attack. The truck company forced the front door and then the garage. 2 cars were inside. That made everone think that the family might still be in there bedrooms. My LT. had us stretch a 2 1/2 to the front door and we made a push to the top of the stairs. We could not get down the hall to the bedrooms as conditions were bad and I kept feeling something hitting me (I found out later that it was roof slate, falling thru the attic. We were then ordered out and a ladder pipe knocked it down before we went back in. Once outside every window & the roof now had fire venting. I was not very hopeful for the family, when we pushed back down the hallway. It turned out that they were away.

What did we save? A bedroom and the family room in the basement. I remember gatthering some critical family items and putting them under a tarp. The letter from the family said we saved the 2 things they could not replace; The family photo albums and their family history files.

Fast forward to this summer, we had a house fire in the middle of the afternoon. Family was on the lawn as we arrived. Heavy fire on multiple floors. Our firefighters made an agressive search and attack which saved much of the home. I was at the CP when a FF came out with the families dog, unconsious and looking like a giant mop. EMS was able to revive the dog and the family made it pretty clear that what we did was the most important thing to them. They were insured and can rebuild, but you cant insure those things.

While insurance may help you rebuild, it will not make you whole.

[sympathomedic 383]

I spoke to a guy in the VFD who deal with insurance liability. The premiums are figured based on "perils" like fire, theft, falling trees etc and how likely the ins co will need to pay out if one of those things happens.

The other portion is liability- how likely are you to get sued for a fall on your steps, neighbor drowns in your pool, your dog bites the mailman etc.

He says about 85% of the premium is peril based, the rest liability based.

This may help some, but is not a full answer to the ISO effect on total insurance cost. Also does a better ISO rating effect single family residential in the same way as modern commercial- the two main types of structures in Somers?

There must be folks on this site with that kind of knowledge, unless we bored them to death by now.

[791075 34]

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).

My home is made out of wood and there are no hydrants in my immediate neighborhood, though a recent water project put one in about 1800 feet away. At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. (other than going as a fireman) No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either. I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire. I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value. We in Somers do not use the F.I.T. devices that allow 1 man to knock down a fire.

I do not want anyone risking their lives to save my house. It is insured. I have no ability to pay yearly taxes to fund a crew of firemen that may or may not be available (due to calls) to come and successfully/unsuccessfully save my home. I am told that the "loaded cost" of 1 fireman is about $140,000 per year (salary, pension, workers comp, OT for vacation/training, days off, sick time etc) So a small ( 4 guys- gotta have 2 in 2 out, right?)crew will cost me about 1/2 million dollars a year. Our Somers Town Budget is about $11 million dollars/year. The SFD budget is about 2.8 million, though they have managed to save over 4 million in various special accounts. (I have heard of tax and spend, but the SFD taxes and puts it in the bank!) So $500,000 every year in costs for the small daytime crew represent about a 20% increase in spending for the District. That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter). Since I am a 10 minute firetruck drive from the main station, I would probably have to do that anyway.

I am really sorry. I would love to see everyone get a great job as a paid fireman. I would love to have a standing army of highly trained and well equipped first responders in our four stations staffing 2 ladders, 5 engines a heavy rescue and a tanker. May as well throw in the scuba truck and ATV thingy too. I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it. I will be careful to not overload any wires. I will keep the chimney clean. I will hope for the best. At 45 years old, I will be moving into assisted living in another 30 years or so. Hopefully I'll make it, house intact, then they can hire as many firemen as they want.

Wow, I cant believe someone in the emergency services field would make a comment like that. I believe your talking from your backside when you state you dont expect anyone to save your house (any fire we RESPOND to we risk our lives). You would be miserable and broken, not just sad if your FAMILY lost THEIR house. The statements you make are driven by personal economics. Why not get the fire services you deserve and pressure the towns politicians to do their job and cut from NON Essential services etc.. to afford what is your right to be provided. How long have you been in this buisness?

Edited September 30, 2011 by 791075

[Bnechis 3,961]

I heard a politician discuss the the tx/budget issues in NYS and he said "As long as New Yorkers maintain their insatiable thirst for services, we will not be able to reduce taxes in a meaningful way." Unpopular as it might be an a fire site, I am no longer thirsty. My guess is many taxpay/service consumers feel or the same way, or will soon and municipal pension costs expand greatly in the nest few years.

The problem is not our "insatiable thirst for services" as many regions of the country have better fire service for less than we pay, our problem is our insatiable thirst for duplicate service, aka every firetruck, ambulance, police car, garbage truck and dispatch center must say "our town" on it.