Somers Looking To Hire Career Firefighters?

[x635 4,066]

I've been told by a very reliable source that Somers FD is looking at ways to cut down on their response times.

ONE of the options they are exploring are hiring firefighters. These wouldn't be "Janitors" or any fake title to get around hiring properly. They want to do it right and proper. Somers would hire off a Civil Service list, and follow the proper procedures to hire Career Firefighters that are equivalent to any other career firefighter in the county.

Most likely, these firefighters would work during the daytime hours, to get a 3-4 man crew out the door with an engine. With Somers current response times, the volunteer members wouldn't be far behind with a ladder or engine. I have also heard they will turn their dispatching over to 60 Control, and use that funding for Career firefighters.

I emphasize, right now, this is just an idea that is being passed around and/or studiedas I am told. If it is true, I applaud Somers FD and their commisioners for making multiple progressive moves over the past few years to making Somers FD one of the premiere FD's in the County.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

If true, I too applaud Somers FD and their commissioners for this progressive step. It is nice to know that there are some departments out there that are taking progressive steps to get away from dismal response times, poor turnouts, or the public image of FF's standing in house in their turnout gear waiting for someone to drive the big red trucks. I am not saying Somers FD has these problems, these are just examples.

[SECTMB 612]

Again, if true, it's just Somers being pro-active and putting the needs of the community first. This is the obvious future for much of the fire service, combination departments replacing formerly volunteer only departments. Works in lots of town, can work in lots more, all to the benefit of the citizens the departments are meant to serve and protect.

[gamewell45 258]

As long as the district has the money and is willing to make the commitment and the taxpayers are not up in arms over it, then it will be a good thing for the residents of Somers.

[FirNaTine 370]

If true I wonder if they'd give their own test or be part of the Towns/Villages testing. It does seem to be the wave of the future. Good for the Somers Officials for being proactive and lookin out for their taxpayers best interest.

[YogruntNy 21]

If true I wonder if they'd give their own test or be part of the Towns/Villages testing. It does seem to be the wave of the future. Good for the Somers Officials for being proactive and lookin out for their taxpayers best interest.

if true, def. the general county list. nice of them to be proactive to ensure the communitys safety, but IF this ever went down, i'd be fearful for its future in maintaining a career status. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[x129K 1,393]

I wish EVERY town would do this!

[Bnechis 3,961]

If true I wonder if they'd give their own test or be part of the Towns/Villages testing. It does seem to be the wave of the future. Good for the Somers Officials for being proactive and lookin out for their taxpayers best interest.

As long as its a civil service position (and not a "houseman") then they can not give a local test and must use the towns/village test.

[yfd910 8]

What's with the "Janitor's" comment/label?!?!?

[x129K 1,393]

What's with the "Janitor's" comment/label?!?!?

they hire people as janitors or maitenance men, and those guys join as volunteers...the fire department lets the janitors leave "work" to go to fire calls...Hmmmmmmmm......how convenient.

It circumvents civil service, the IAFF, and a quality pension, among other things.

[firefighter2711 12]

I dont agree with the janitor thing either. But why would a Volunteer Dept. give a rats behind about theIAFF. IAFF doesn't care about the volunteer service, and if any volunteers of that dept. are career elsewhere they would no longer be able to volunteer with that department.

[x635 4,066]

I dont agree with the janitor thing either. But why would a Volunteer Dept. give a rats behind about theIAFF. IAFF doesn't care about the volunteer service, and if any volunteers of that dept. are career elsewhere they would no longer be able to volunteer with that department.

Let's emphasize right here, right now, this isn't and WILL NOT turn into a "career vs. volunteer" debate. Any such discussion is subject to deletion [/moderator]

The Civil Service status affords the firefighter numerous protections, included, gosh forbid, help to the firefighter and his/her family if he/she is ever injured or worse.

And just because it's a career department, doesn't mean it is IAFF. The members of the career department have to create a local chapter (IF they want to), and the IAFF has to accept that. The union is not anti volunteer, but does protect labor and lobby for legislative matter that affects their agenda and their members agenda-and even things that benefit the volunteer service as a whole. It also creates a bargaining unit and other protection for the firefighters job. Even though it does spawn conflict to some people, and fails some.

At this time, Somers is exploring it's options. A formation of a labor chapter, or joining a nearby local (such as Lake Mohegan) is a long time away, and has nothing to do with this issue, as the Somers Commisioners are wise enough to accept the IAFF as being a standard in the Career Fire Service and factor that in to their research.

[ace84 100]

It's a move by some departments...they hire people as janitors or maitenance men, and those guys join as volunteers...the fire department lets the janitors leave "work" to go to fire calls...Hmmmmmmmm......how convenient.

It circumvents civil service, the IAFF, and a quality pension, among other things.

Like Mechanicstown & Middle Hope FDs in Orange County

[FirNaTine 370]

and if any volunteers of that dept. are career elsewhere they would no longer be able to volunteer with that department.

Not true at all. We'll just leave it at that.

[peterose313 345]

I wish EVERY town would do this!

Not EVERY town has these issues though. I think in towns where response times are lackluster due to not being able to get a crew this ought to happen but the towns who are still 100% volly that have little to no issue getting out shouldn't have to change. If ain't broke, don't fix it.

[FirNaTine 370]

Just wondering do any Volunteer Depts. require its members to stay a night or two in their respective Stations or is it on a Voluntary basis if they choose to. I know years ago a few Volunteers would stay occasionally in Quarters overnight on the weekends.

Edited September 24, 2011 by FirNaTine

[ace84 100]

Just wondering do any Volunteer Depts. require its members to stay a night or two in their respective Stations or is it on a Voluntary basis if they choose to. I know years ago a few Volunteers would stay occasionally in Quarters over night on the weekends.

Alot departments in Orange County have voluntary overnight crews

[peterose313 345]

Just wondering do any Volunteer Depts. require its members to stay a night or two in their respective Stations or is it on a Voluntary basis if they choose to. I know years ago a few Volunteers would stay occasionally in Quarters overnight on the weekends.

In Oss, they only spend the night if they're on standby for whatever reason. There's generally always people down at the firehouse hanging out anyways so getting out is of very little issue.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I know LI "housemen" who are members of the IAFF. Most active all volunteer Depts are blue collar towns with its day crews made up of shift workers. I know a few LI Depts who have "day crews" in house Mon-Fri...made up of shift workers.

Edited September 26, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know LI "housemen" who are members of the IAFF. Most active all volunteer Depts are blue collar towns with its day crews made up of shift workers. I know a few LI Depts who have "day crews" in house Mon-Fri...made up of shift workers.

Thats not what they wrote on the application. 2 LI depts. are IAFF for career FF's - Garden City & Long Beech.

All others came in under EMS or Dispatchers, not "housemen"

Unless you are refering to IAFF members who also work as housemen and IAFF does not rep them in the latter.

[x635 4,066]

Here's a previous thread about housemen that was discussed on EMTBravo a while back (it is locked because it is archived)

[dashield 61]

Alot departments in Orange County have voluntary overnight crews

They do???? What departments?

[sympathomedic 383]

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).

My home is made out of wood and there are no hydrants in my immediate neighborhood, though a recent water project put one in about 1800 feet away. At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. (other than going as a fireman) No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either. I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire. I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value. We in Somers do not use the F.I.T. devices that allow 1 man to knock down a fire.

I do not want anyone risking their lives to save my house. It is insured. I have no ability to pay yearly taxes to fund a crew of firemen that may or may not be available (due to calls) to come and successfully/unsuccessfully save my home. I am told that the "loaded cost" of 1 fireman is about $140,000 per year (salary, pension, workers comp, OT for vacation/training, days off, sick time etc) So a small ( 4 guys- gotta have 2 in 2 out, right?)crew will cost me about 1/2 million dollars a year. Our Somers Town Budget is about $11 million dollars/year. The SFD budget is about 2.8 million, though they have managed to save over 4 million in various special accounts. (I have heard of tax and spend, but the SFD taxes and puts it in the bank!) So $500,000 every year in costs for the small daytime crew represent about a 20% increase in spending for the District. That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter). Since I am a 10 minute firetruck drive from the main station, I would probably have to do that anyway.

I am really sorry. I would love to see everyone get a great job as a paid fireman. I would love to have a standing army of highly trained and well equipped first responders in our four stations staffing 2 ladders, 5 engines a heavy rescue and a tanker. May as well throw in the scuba truck and ATV thingy too. I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it. I will be careful to not overload any wires. I will keep the chimney clean. I will hope for the best. At 45 years old, I will be moving into assisted living in another 30 years or so. Hopefully I'll make it, house intact, then they can hire as many firemen as they want.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).

My home is made out of wood and there are no hydrants in my immediate neighborhood, though a recent water project put one in about 1800 feet away. At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. (other than going as a fireman) No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either. I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire. I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value. We in Somers do not use the F.I.T. devices that allow 1 man to knock down a fire.

I do not want anyone risking their lives to save my house. It is insured. I have no ability to pay yearly taxes to fund a crew of firemen that may or may not be available (due to calls) to come and successfully/unsuccessfully save my home. I am told that the "loaded cost" of 1 fireman is about $140,000 per year (salary, pension, workers comp, OT for vacation/training, days off, sick time etc) So a small ( 4 guys- gotta have 2 in 2 out, right?)crew will cost me about 1/2 million dollars a year. Our Somers Town Budget is about $11 million dollars/year. The SFD budget is about 2.8 million, though they have managed to save over 4 million in various special accounts. (I have heard of tax and spend, but the SFD taxes and puts it in the bank!) So $500,000 every year in costs for the small daytime crew represent about a 20% increase in spending for the District. That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter). Since I am a 10 minute firetruck drive from the main station, I would probably have to do that anyway.

I am really sorry. I would love to see everyone get a great job as a paid fireman. I would love to have a standing army of highly trained and well equipped first responders in our four stations staffing 2 ladders, 5 engines a heavy rescue and a tanker. May as well throw in the scuba truck and ATV thingy too. I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it. I will be careful to not overload any wires. I will keep the chimney clean. I will hope for the best. At 45 years old, I will be moving into assisted living in another 30 years or so. Hopefully I'll make it, house intact, then they can hire as many firemen as they want.

How much would you save to remove the inhouse dispatchers, the inhouse mechanic, the paid administrative personnel for the district, and switch that funding over to career firemen?

You're already double taxing your district for services that are already provided by the county....

Edited September 28, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[ny10570 745]

How much is your insurance a year. Sounds like your ISO rating is possibly in the unprotected category. Paid firefighters in conjunction with the current volunteers should be able to take a good chunk out of your insurance premiums.

[firebuff860 54]

How much would you save to remove the inhouse dispatchers, the inhouse mechanic, the paid administrative personnel for the district, and switch that funding over to career firemen?

You're already double taxing your district for services that are already provided by the county....

How do I sign up my department for an in house mechanic and administrative personnel? I didn't know the county covered that.

[JohnnyOV 2]

How do I sign up my department for an in house mechanic and administrative personnel? I didn't know the county covered that.

Sorry, long day.... only the dispatching is doubled up. Your county taxes already pay for the DES services, why not capitalize on them.

As for the other functions, and as a legitimate question with no hidden agenda, why is there a need for a paid inhouse mechanic, or paid administrative personnel?

[sympathomedic 383]

How much would you save to remove the inhouse dispatchers, the inhouse mechanic, the paid administrative personnel for the district, and switch that funding over to career firemen?

You're already double taxing your district for services that are already provided by the county....

I understand the dispatchers cost us about $170,000/year. We have 5 part timers in the office that run about $15-$20,000/year each. So that comes out to about $270,000 total. I do not know of any paid firemen that also do the work of mechanics, so I assume that either the mechanic would need to stay, OR a similar amount would have to be spent on outsourced repairs, so no savings there. The other 5 office staff have titles like Clerk, Treasurer, Secretary, Purchasing agent and computer services. We also have a paid training officer, ironically a paid fireman working a second job. I am pretty sure most paid/combo departments have some type of civilain office staff. I believe Eastchester does, as does Mohegan, to cite two examples- and they are full timers, so lets just say that 1 full timer= 2 part timers, but full timers get BENEFITS that SFD part timers do not, and benefits = pension, medical etc and that is pricey, so lets say that ONE FT = 3 PT's. So now you are only saving the dispatch money ($170,000 and TWO PT office staff = about $36,000/year, totaling $206,000/ a year that at todays rate gets you about 1 3/4 firemen.

If those 1 and 3/4 guys are willing to do tires, brakes, belts, oil changes, batteries, maintain the 4 house generators, fix burned out lights, schedule warrenty work, mount brackets for new equipment, do minor wiring, maintain the 2 dozen portable motorized pumps, saws, generators and fans and drive the trucks (out of town by the way) to a larger garage for repairs too big to handle, then maybe the mechanic would be eliminated, saving another $30,000, which of course the Union would immediately demand in compensation for their members doing all that stuff (I am a shop steward and I would do the same thing for my guys).

If they are willing to go to 4 firehouses and sweep, mop, clean the bathrooms, refill the soap and toilet paper, take out the trash,(the two larger stations get a LOT of traffic) then another $14,000 might be found, but you know where that will go (see above).

If the proposed new firemen would do construction projects and building maintenance on the 4 stations- change light bulbs, fix broken plumbing fixtures, unclog drains indoor and outdoors, fix broken windows, doors and gutters, build and install fixtures like bulletin boards, shelving and hose racks, battery chargers and lights, do minor electric work and painting, change AC and furnace filters and change the exhaust system filters, build or tear down the occasional wall and do interior remodeling, then the part time maintenence guy could go, freeing up about $20,000. I know some paid firemen do some of that stuff, but I don't think they do all of it. If not, then someone will need to stay on the payroll to do it.

BTW: in terms of double taxing, its about to get worse! The SFD is in the process of a HUGE radio upgrade with several remote radio sites and coordinated receivers and transmitting ability from the 4 stations. All while the County radios sit idle in our rigs and dispatch desk. So: taxes bought the big county system which Somers opts not to use, and taxes are buying the Somers system, for the paid dispatchers to use. THIS IN A TOWN THE SIZE OF MANHATAN THAT HAS A SINGLE STAFFED POLICE CAR IN IT FROM 0000-0500. Getting back to my original post, I feel my tax $ is better off in my pocket, but second best spent on cops. I know LOTS of crime victims.

How much is your insurance a year. Sounds like your ISO rating is possibly in the unprotected category. Paid firefighters in conjunction with the current volunteers should be able to take a good chunk out of your insurance premiums.

I pay about $1200 a year in total home insurance. The policy defies my ability to understand it. It talks about how much they will pay to fix it, rebuild it etc, but they do NOT say how much of that $12,000 is for fire protection. One thing I do know: I get a 2% surcharge on my insurance to fund my VFD benevolent association!! They do buy me dinner once a year, and the way I eat, I come out ahead on that one. I know a (VERY) little about ISO. would 4 guys, M-F days really get me a %10 drop in insurance? Coming from a station 10 minutes away to an area with out hydrants or ponds?

Sorry, long day.... only the dispatching is doubled up. Your county taxes already pay for the DES services, why not capitalize on them.

As for the other functions, and as a legitimate question with no hidden agenda, why is there a need for a paid inhouse mechanic, or paid administrative personnel?

I cannot defend the office staff. I work part time at a VAC and the 1 person office staff they have could do our office work standing on her head.

The mechanic maintians a LOT: 2 ladders, 1 with a pump. 5 engines, a tanker, heavy rescue, 3 ambulances, 4 chief cars (gotta have a spare!), rehab bus, scuba truck, fire police truck, mini attack, mini van (in case a bunch of soccer moms join) two other utility trucks, 3 trailers, 1 boat with an outboard, 4 station power generators, a very large number of small engines. As you can guess, ambulance and Chief car work take a lot of time- cuz thats where the mileage is. But all those trucks with their various systems need a fair amount of looking after. I believe he is a part timer on paper, but ends up doing closer to full time hours. He will come in on a weekend if they call him if a rig goes OOS.

Sorry, long day.... only the dispatching is doubled up. Your county taxes already pay for the DES services, why not capitalize on them.

As for the other functions, and as a legitimate question with no hidden agenda, why is there a need for a paid inhouse mechanic, or paid administrative personnel?

When our District Commissioners were asked that question in August 2010 at a Town Board meeting, they said that Somers call volume was too high, and its dispatching need to complex to be handles by the county. I was there myself to hear it. They said that Somers follows a set of protcols that have been established and adjusted over years, and the County would not work with them. Nothing that $170,000 won't fix.

[x635 4,066]

Here's some more info (condensed, info is from a Public Meeting and Fitch Associates):

The District had a manpower study recently completed by Fitch Associates, a nationally reconized Fire and EMS Consulting firm. They pointed out two interesting points. On the EMS side, they are head and shoulders above most of the country in response time and number of responders. They are running less then a 3 minute response time and on average 5 responders at each call. On the fire side, thier response time is in the double digits and the number of responders is in the single digits. The Board of Fire Commissioners is charged by State law to provide adequate fire and EMS services to the residents of the District and right now using purely a volunteer force they are not adequate.

Fitch is going to re-vist the numbers to the end of the year to see if the number of responders goes up. If it does not, then the District would have to seriously consider hiring firefighters in the near future.

The staffing would be as such. They would need 1 captain, 3 lieutenants and 10 firefighter/EMT's. They would start with a system similar to Mohegan Fire Department. The paid staff would work 24/7 and all be stationed in Lincolndale were there would be one engine, one ladder and one rescue. There would be 2 firefighters and 1 officer per shift. If it is a house call, the engine and ladder would respond, a MVA the engine and rescue would respond. The hiring process is not yet defined, but it would be in compliance with the Westchester County and NYS Civil Service laws and procedures.

All of this info was presented at a public meeting for the District, and by Fitch Associates.

Good to see Somers is going to do this the right way and are accountable and honest about staffing.

See the trend?

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2010 = 2086

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2009 = 1947

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2008 = 1890

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2007 = 1868

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2006 = 1673

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2005 = 1729

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2004 = 1510

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2003 = 1436

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2002 = 1356

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2001 = 1158

TOTAL RUNS FOR 2000 = 1198

[corporal 6]

if X635 got a copy of the findings i'd like to know where so i could get them also?