Please Don't do this!

[mreis95 77]

This is just going to get turned into a pissing match as usual. (It has already started-oh this is what con ed line guys told me--i spoke with a con ed emerg serv supervisor about this....mimicking eachothers posts by numbering your arguments) This website is notorious for this and is becoming a waste to bother trying to discuss incident photos.

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo. We don't know the whole story so we shouldn't say omg wtf because as firefighters we have to adapt to the situation and also we really don't need to say he has to own up to everything that he did and take accountability for his actions. No he really doesn't, especially not to anyone on this website.

[EMTDelta 22]

This is just going to get turned into a pissing match as usual. (It has already started-oh this is what con ed line guys told me--i spoke with a con ed emerg serv supervisor about this....mimicking eachothers posts by numbering your arguments) This website is notorious for this and is becoming a waste to bother trying to discuss incident photos.

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo. We don't know the whole story so we shouldn't say omg wtf because as firefighters we have to adapt to the situation and also we really don't need to say he has to own up to everything that he did and take accountability for his actions. No he really doesn't, especially not to anyone on this website.

And what if it was in Brazil, or California, or France, or Russia, then, when its not "so close to home" would it be ok?

So someone who views from Brazil, or France sees said picture, and recognizes it, does that make it "inappropriate"? Or is it just because its "close to home here", and some people recognize it, its wrong? Or is it just that people hate bad press for doing something stupid?

Its time the fire service mans up and admits when it does things wrong instead of crying "bashing" or anything else of the sort, but that should not lead to beating a dead horse. Yup, they did something wrong, admit it, and try and save face.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is just going to get turned into a pissing match as usual. (It has already started-oh this is what con ed line guys told me--i spoke with a con ed emerg serv supervisor about this....mimicking eachothers posts by numbering your arguments)

Ok lets move it away from that, What does your text book say? What does ConEd say in their training material and what do you written policies say.....word of mouth is not the way to go.

Many people use numbering because it makes your point clear, you are really streatching it to make it a bad thing.

This website is notorious for this and is becoming a waste to bother trying to discuss incident photos.

While some go overboard (bashing) we would never want to learn from others mistakes. I wonder how many new FF's or Jr. FF's on here look at this and at the very least say to themselves, "this is an issue, I dont know who is correct, but I better learn more about it".

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo.

True, the dept knows and maybe they will reevaluate their operation, No need to let any other FF's know about it because it might embarress someone. If 1 more ff "gets it" from here.....Thats a good thing.

We don't know the whole story so we shouldn't say omg wtf

You are correct we don't know the whole story, but from what we see its hard to justify and their are learning points here.

because as firefighters we have to adapt to the situation

Adapt does not mean ignor SOP's, Rules etc. We have buried a lot of brothers who "adapted" when they should not have.

we really don't need to say he has to own up to everything that he did and take accountability for his actions. No he really doesn't, especially not to anyone on this website.

No one said he did have to on here, they said he could if he wanted to. However, as a chief if he is not accountable for all actions (good ones and bad ones) then he should not be chief.

If his actions were wrong and he does not acknowledge that (to his dept.) what happens when a new member who witnessed it, tries it 5 or 10 years from now and it does not work, whose fault is it then?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Bnechis

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Capt. Nechis......

Your comments are spot on. EMTBravo is not here (in mission) to 'bash' anyone. As you said, if ONE single FF/EMT/LEO takes something home from any single post, we have succeeded.

I salute you for saying it like it is, and, for saying what needed to be said. It is because of people like you that we accomplish things in the fire service, and on this site. You also say it without slamming anyone for their comments. Admirable. Not everyone can do that.

Another person who "calls 'em like he sees 'em" is JFLYNN. I can easily say that everything he says doesn't always get the warmest reception, but, can anyone honestly say people like JFLYNN and Bnechis post anything other than the truth? Hard hitting and difficult as it may be to take... they certainly do not.

[x635 4,066]

This is just going to get turned into a pissing match as usual. (It has already started-oh this is what con ed line guys told me--i spoke with a con ed emerg serv supervisor about this....mimicking eachothers posts by numbering your arguments) This website is notorious for this and is becoming a waste to bother trying to discuss incident photos.

Obviously, this comment is directed towards me. As far as speaking with Con Ed staff, I did my homework before I said anything that wasn't accurate.

I wasn't mimicking any posts by numbering my reply. As you can see, I'm very longwinded. I intended to make several short points that could be easily reffered to. That way was easiest for me to do, but it ended up not working.

As far as this website becoming "notorious for this", this website is what you make of it. What this website is notorius for is a very low majority of people getting defensive for no reason, easlily offended, and think they are unaccountable for thier actions. These are the same some people who have good and contructive information to share, and instead they just sit back and say nothing even if it means we could all learn from it. And, most of the people who complain aren't even active members of this forum to begin with. There's a difference between incident photos and this photo, as I stated above.

I deem this as an immediate threat to life for the person standing on top of the Engine. It's really, really sad people are trying to defend this. If I delete this thread, it would be doing a tremendous disservice to our community. I'd MUCH rather have people complain about this website and make accusations about it instead of having to post LODD arangements.

In going forward, let's remember that inflamatory comments towards another member, even subtle ones, are a violation of forum policy. If you have an issue with me, you can contact me direct at seth@emtbravo.com, PM me, or use the Contact System.

[x635 4,066]

[x635 4,066]

From FirefighterCloseCalls.com:

Someone once said that a picture is worth a thousand words... the GALLERY SECTION purpose is to HELP US ALL THINK about how we operate. We clearly understand that some pictures DO NOT always show the entire scenario-and these pictures aren't here for entertainment-they are here to help us learn. We try to be careful when selecting the photos that you send us... however, on the other hand, if these photos provide insight to similar conditions that any FF may encounter, that picture may make a big difference moments later to another FF--and that's why this section is here.

[Remember585 815]

The Chief shouldn't be doing that. A probie nobody likes should be.

If Con Edison was on the scene confirming the hazard of electricity was eliminated, then it's putting out a simple fire. Period.

Operating on the roof... not that big of a deal in my opinion, we climb up there to wash the rigs, pack hose and fix antennas, right?

Settle down. Nobody knows all of the facts, right?

I hate how FFCC has become a place for people to post pictures of things they personally don't like because, often times, they've got a grudge against the person(s) or department(s) in the photo.

We're our own worst enemies...

[Dinosaur 844]

There are many problems with this picture.

The top of an engine isn't the right tool to elevate fire suppression efforts.

The officer isn't wearing appropriate PPE.

Putting an engine under all those lines, energized or not, exposes the risk to damage if one of the lines fails and falls.

The officer could have simply called for the right equipment or let the utility handle their own problem with their equipment.

I don't understand the rush to use the wrong equipmnent for the job when the right equipment is readily available.

And a question for the utility company guys out there: even if you de-energize the lines, couldn't they be back fed by a customer with an improperly connected home generator?

Bottom line, egos and emotions aside, it was the wrong move even if it was with good intentions.

[x635 4,066]

Operating on the roof... not that big of a deal in my opinion, we climb up there to wash the rigs, pack hose and fix antennas, right?

But those are not emergency situations. I think that the whole apparatus roof and hosebed are a dangerous place to wash rigs, pack hose, etc. I've never seen this issue addressed before.

Just putting out the fire on the roof is an issue itself. But these wires often come off a spool. If broken, they tend to snap back. Gosh forbid this wire snapped, which with the fire it has potential to do, it would have knocked that Chief right off that roof. If Con Ed was on scene with a bucket truck, or an Aerial on scene, it would provide a much better and secure platform. Plus, putting yourself underneath the wires and near the poles is like operating in the "collapse zone"

As far as the PPE goes, if he's not wearing a nomex station pants and a nomex shirt, then he has no basic PPE that's going to help him, such as if a spark hits him.

And the apparatus operator....he has to operate under the direction of the Chief, or face insubordination charges.

[16fire5 693]

This is just going to get turned into a pissing match as usual. (It has already started-oh this is what con ed line guys told me--i spoke with a con ed emerg serv supervisor about this....mimicking eachothers posts by numbering your arguments) This website is notorious for this and is becoming a waste to bother trying to discuss incident photos.

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo. We don't know the whole story so we shouldn't say omg wtf because as firefighters we have to adapt to the situation and also we really don't need to say he has to own up to everything that he did and take accountability for his actions. No he really doesn't, especially not to anyone on this website.

The only thing I can make of this post is your either friends with the subject of the photo, in the department, or both. Either way why can't we agree at the very least in hindsight it was a bad idea. You know what this website is becoming notorious for? People to the end defending some real bad tactics. We have a number of people sticking by using hyraulic spreaders to lift a car in another thread even after some of us have shared our experinces where things didn't work or are too dangerous to be used as a tactic. It's never good to be in the spotlight like this but it ocassionally happens to even the best out there the difference is they realize their mistakes and don't let them happen again. A previous post just aluded to it and I'll bet there are some officers on here that won't allow this to happen if they are in the same situation now that they have reviewed this. That's the reason that the secret list posts this stuff.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

And the apparatus operator....he has to operate under the direction of the Chief, or face insubordination charges.

With that logic, if the Chief tells you to jump out of a fully extended aerial, would you? Because if you didn't you would be insubordinate?

It comes down to common sense. "Do this!" "Sorry Chief, that is dangerous, I will not take part in such an activity."

If someone were charged with insubordination for saying that, and punitive action was taken, they would have one helluva lawsuit on their hands. I think OSHA/PESH would also have a field day!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

NO WHEEL CHOCKS!!!!!!

Also, I could be wrong but too me it seems that the truck (sorry ENGINE) was moving with this FF/Chief on the roof. If you look at picture #1, the driver is still in the rig and the vehicle seems to be positioned more on the lane of travel and the person on the roof is sitting (indicates securing himself for the ride). In picture #2, the driver is out of the rig, the person on the roof is standing and the truck seems to be significantly farther to the side of the rode then in picture #1.

Edited September 14, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[RescueKujo 130]

And the apparatus operator....he has to operate under the direction of the Chief, or face insubordination charges.

With that logic, if the Chief tells you to jump out of a fully extended aerial, would you? Because if you didn't you would be insubordinate?

It comes down to common sense. "Do this!" "Sorry Chief, that is dangerous, I will not take part in such an activity."

If someone were charged with insubordination for saying that, and punitive action was taken, they would have one helluva lawsuit on their hands. I think OSHA/PESH would also have a field day!

I believe the wording in any military or paramilitary organization is "lawful" order...if you know the order is unlawful you're covered in refusing the order...but you better be real sure of yourself...

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo.

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with you here. I've heard Chief Goldfeder (the founder of FFCC.com) speak before, and he makes it very clear that the entire purpose if his site is to let us learn from others' mistakes and to generate discussion on issues of safety and survival, whether it be on the internet, on the rig, or at the station. He wants dialogue on these issues, and for good reason.

Edited September 14, 2011 by SageVigiles
spelling mistake

[mstrang1 213]

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/43158-brooklyn-fatal-electrocution-9-14-2011/page__pid__246353#entry246353

This is the link to the Brooklyn Fatal Electrocution. Take note that the victim was a Verizon employee. Even though Utility workers are professional and are usually very good at what they do, bad things sometimes happen to even them. Nobody, especially untrained (in utility services) firefighters have any place being anywhere near those wires, no matter, phone cable, electric.

Edited September 15, 2011 by mstrang1

[mreis95 77]

I appreciate that you either think I am the chief or a friend or a member of the department but I live in Beulah, North Dakota and we don't have con ed. But thank you guys. Plus to be honest I don't care what this guy did, all I wanted to get across really was people need to take a deep breath when it comes to this stuff jesus.

Thank you,

Mike

[FFBlaser 24]

I like how much attention something bad gets.... However a picture of a few guys in correct PPE working and MVA or a Fully involved structure hardly gets this much attention...

[FFEMT150 214]

I like how much attention something bad gets.... However a picture of a few guys in correct PPE working and MVA or a Fully involved structure hardly gets this much attention...

Two words brother..."human nature"... Also, I don't think there is really a need to recognize someone for doing what they should be doing every time they go on a call. Goin above and beyond and making a rescue, making a quick stop or some skilled cuts should be praised, But when someone fails to operate in a safe manner and a lesson can be learned, go for it!

[firebuff860 54]

I appreciate that you either think I am the chief or a friend or a member of the department but I live in Beulah, North Dakota and we don't have con ed. But thank you guys. Plus to be honest I don't care what this guy did, all I wanted to get across really was people need to take a deep breath when it comes to this stuff jesus.

Thank you,

Mike

Mike,

People who want to take their next deep breath should not be doing what this picture shows. As other members have stated, even IF Con Ed asked them to extinguish the wires, they had the wrong apparatus. Since nobody from the Dept has enlightened us as to why they did what the picture shows, members are stating their opinion.

From an earlier post of yours:

I however think that this being on FF close calls or wherever it was found was enough for this dept and the people involved and doesn't need to be taken on by emtbravo. We don't know the whole story so we shouldn't say omg wtf because as firefighters we have to adapt to the situation and also we really don't need to say he has to own up to everything that he did and take accountability for his actions. No he really doesn't, especially not to anyone on this website.

The member of the Dept certainly does not have to "own up" to his actions on this site. But he most certainly has to take accountability for his actions within his Dept (I hope).

[FFBlaser 24]

Two words brother..."human nature"... Also, I don't think there is really a need to recognize someone for doing what they should be doing every time they go on a call. Goin above and beyond and making a rescue, making a quick stop or some skilled cuts should be praised, But when someone fails to operate in a safe manner and a lesson can be learned, go for it!

I'm not saying a little constructive criticism is wrong... I'm just saying it should have been a "what do you see wrong with this picture".

[RescueKujo 130]

I like how much attention something bad gets.... However a picture of a few guys in correct PPE working and MVA or a Fully involved structure hardly gets this much attention...

That is because there usually isn't an investigation every time something goes "right"....As was said in the initial post, this was for educational/training purposes. That means disecting everything "incorrect" and unsafe in whatever media is supplied, in this case photos. Attention is what incorrect acts should get, as hopefully it will cause someone to be safer on the fireground, and they won't become a statistic and we aren't posting our condolences to their family and friends.

It's not about making someone or a department look bad. It's about keeping your Brothers and Sisters in Public Safety alive...

[mreis95 77]

I agree but people have the tendency to want these guys to come onto emtbravo and own up to it and that is a little much.

[jack10562 414]

I agree but people have the tendency to want these guys to come onto emtbravo and own up to it and that is a little much.

Oftentimes we've had the pleasure of hearing directly from some of those people involved in an incident or photo we have been discussing come on here and enlighten everyone as to what was happening on the scene or behind the scenes when the image was captured, including the good, the bad and the ugly.

We're fortunate to hear "their side" because as we all know, unless we were there, that split-second frozen in time might not always be the whole story or even part of the story, and we have already made up our collective minds as to what it is we're seeing.

[mreis95 77]

.... unless we were there, that split-second frozen in time might not always be the whole story or even part of the story, and we have already made up our collective minds as to what it is we're seeing.

Exactly, some people should read this.

[okcomputer 12]

Would it also be wrong to put FAIL on the lower right hand corner of each of the photo's?

This would serve as a "Can you spot what is wrong with this picture" scenario for FF1 Classes. Besides pointing out the obvious, the instructor can then say, "what else is wrong", i.e. lack of PPE, SCBA, standing on top of the apparatus, distance the apparatus is to the burning wires, etc etc etc.

On a side note, at least they remembered to wear their helmets and protective vests.