Please Don't do this!

[DRF 5]

I found these photos on the site firefighterclosecall.com. I did not take these pictures but feel its important to share with others for its educational value.

Look at these pictures and LEARN from them. For your safety, for the safety of your crew and for the safety of those who call on us for help, PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

That is outstanding!

[jack10562 414]

I wonder if the sagging and blackened lead shielded 13,800 volt feeder cable had anything to do with this incident?

[mfc2257 464]

I'm curious as to your concern because there are several places to go with this....

Is it the lack of PPE?

Standing on top of fire apparatus in a place not specifically designed for FF's to operate from?

Extinguishing a utility pole fire on a non power transmission/distribution cable?

That department is right in EMTBravo's back yard.... Engine markings give it away even with the blurring in the photo.

Edited September 12, 2011 by mfc2257

[STAT213 332]

Wow. That's just plain stoooopid. Doesn't matter where it's from. The ONLY way that it would be okay (and just on the front of playing with electricity) is if there were power guys that they were operating with who told them face to face that the power was off. But even then, it's still not the best of plans. The fire doesn't need to be put out. Where's it gonna go?

But hey, at least they are wearing the federally mandated vests. They apparently made it to THAT class.

[INIT915 1,119]

This happened to have occurred right in front of a local hospital while I was there on an unrelated matter. There were mulitple Con-Ed trucks on the scene as well. From the distance I was, I couldn't give you any more details than that.

[99subi 121]

Why would you want it removed, wouldnt you want to be aware of things that go on? Its a learning experince.

[JBE 328]

Personal opinion, leave it up. This is a training tool of what not to do. Doesn't matter if it's a local department, or it's from 2000 miles away. Everybody makes mistakes and this is one to learn from.

[comical115 32]

Why would you want it removed, wouldnt you want to be aware of things that go on? Its a learning experince.

Heaven forbid we learn from our mistakes...

[FF398 45]

Why would you want it removed, wouldnt you want to be aware of things that go on? Its a learning experince.

I agree with what you're saying, this can be a learning experience. I just think that if something like this is posted on a site that all lettering and numbering should be blurred out or covered. You still have to respect the department...

[jack10562 414]

Identifying markings have been further retouched to avoid bashing of a particular department. Some of you may know who is involved, please let's keep that information to ourselves.

They know who they are.

[x129K 1,393]

HOLE EE CRAP!

What on God's green Earth was that WHITE HAT thinking!?!?!?!?

I am one of the LAST people to pick apart a photo - or call the NFPA Police...but OH MY LORD W....T...F!?!?!?!?

Can ANYONE give a GOOD reason to do this?

[newsbuff 286]

I'm curious as to your concern because there are several places to go with this....

Is it the lack of PPE?

Standing on top of fire apparatus in a place not specifically designed for FF's to operate from?

Extinguishing a utility pole fire on a non power transmission/distribution cable?

PPE? Absolutely this is a problem with the lack of PPE. Especially from the CHIEF of the dept... What if the wind shifted and blew a piece of burning insulation towards him? Any protection from burning material with jeans and a t-shirt?

And what would happen if he were to lean too far over, or the wire breaks and he jumps back from surprise....

If this is the way management runs the place, get me out of there...

[FFEMTPD72 2]

Why would you want it removed, wouldnt you want to be aware of things that go on? Its a learning experince.

This.

It will be a shame if this picture is censored. This is how we learn.

[abaduck 123]

From what I can see, the department are just assisting ConEd. The firefighter in the street is wearing turnout pants, helmet, and vest; which seems appropriate PPE for this type of call.

The ConEd guy is on the engine (for such it is; appears to be jeans, t-shirt, vest, and white hat)... well it's his electricity system. If he deems it appropriate to deal with the incident in this manner, and requests FD assistance, that's his call.

Now I'm speculating here, but perhaps he was the first ConEd guy on scene, in an SUV or small van, and decided that the fire needed to be knocked down to minimize damage. He used a little creative thinking and enlisted the help of the FD, as the big ConEd trucks weren't on scene yet?

That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Mike

[jack10562 414]

From my experience Con Ed electric line workers would not climb on top of any vehicle to extinguish burning cable insulation, plus they don't wear short sleeved shirts, white fire helmets, or that style hi-vis vest, particularly one that says CHIEF.:-)

[abaduck 123]

From my experience Con Ed electric line workers would not climb on top of any vehicle to extinguish burning cable insulation, plus they don't wear short sleeved shirts, white fire helmets, or that style hi-vis vest, particularly one that says CHIEF.:-)

Urk. You have better eyes than I do then; Yes, I thought it was an unusual thing for a ConEd guy to do, but that's who I thought it was - a ConEd supervisor with a white helmet.

Mike

[INIT915 1,119]

Urk. You have better eyes than I do then; Yes, I thought it was an unusual thing for a ConEd guy to do, but that's who I thought it was - a ConEd supervisor with a white helmet.

Mike

Jack's right. That isn't a ConEd guy. I could however, see ConEd guys from where I was standing. They didn't appear to be taking part in any suppression activities.

[JohnnyOV 2]

While I completely agree with what you are all saying in regards to training and the sometimes "forgetful or unintentional moves" we sometimes make, there is just no consistency when it comes to how photo's like this are treated while up on here.

There was a certain set of photos from a Duchess County fire that ended up on FFCC about a month or so ago, and EVERYONE freaked out that they photo's made it on there saying "He's experienced, if he wants to be on a roof with no mask / no gloves /helemet off, venting, I'll trust him to the day I die." Now, this time it is reversed, (FFCC to EMTbravo) and we have another member from a department, that is a CHIEF this time, lacking PPE, making another questionable move, and everyone throws him into the fire. Have some consistency on which way these safety issues are discussed.

I was not involved in the incident presented at all (I'm not a member of the department either), but I can only imagine that the power was shut down and verified by the power company. And for operating off the roof of the engine; have you never packed hose before in the hose bed once you've laid in? PPE however, is a different story.... There is always wiggle room on what is considered a serious offense, and given the 2 sets of photos, I can only assume from what is presented, that this was more dangerous to be operating around, then venting the roof of a fire that appeared to be under control. I understand that they are 2 different types of incidents, and we're only seeing 1/1000 of what was actually occurring at the time, but these, like the other photos, are capturing that 1/1000th of a time frame, and everything can be judged off that, which it obviously is.

And, as a side note, the ONLY reason I mentioned taking these photo's down today, was because of the way the other thread was treated. I'm all for learning from mistakes and improving your operations and you can be sure I'll be sharing this on drill night with guys from my department for training.

Edited September 12, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[mfc2257 464]

And for operating off the roof of the engine; have you never packed hose before in the hose bed once you've laid in? PPE however, is a different story....

I was merely trying to get the original poster to be more specific other than the obvious of showing a picture of something potentially dangerous and then saying PLEASE DONT DO THIS... which does little to inspire educated discussion on this site.

[abaduck 123]

While I completely agree with what you are all saying in regards to training and the sometimes "forgetful or unintentional moves" we sometimes make, there is just no consistency when it comes to how photo's like this are treated while up on here.

Seth will be along in a moment to correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* the reason for the apparent inconsistency is we're talking about very different types of photo posts/threads.

In a thread like this, someone posts a photo or photos as an education/training matter and positively *invites* critique. That's fair enough.

But there are other threads where fire scene photographers simply post their work, as 'news'. Seth, I think, wants these posts and threads to be off-limits for such criticism/nit-picking - because he wants to encourage fire scene photographers to post their work without fear of people nitpicking the department being photographed to death! That's also fair and sensible in my view.

So the apparent inconsistency actually makes perfect sense :-)

Mike

Edited September 12, 2011 by abaduck

[BBBMF 158]

Maybe ConEd said no ETA???

My eye sight may not be the best but even though i believe those to be cable and telephone lines burning...thats probably the most idiotic thing i've ever seen.

Also, above his head looks to be a high tension wire which could carry in excess of 33,000 volts..Yikes!

Utility emergencies always have the potential to be dangerous and deadly if not handled correctly... Gas blows up, electricity will fry you, water in a large enough amount does whatever it wants, and steam at the right PSI will cut you in half....Lets let the professionals take care of it; thats what they're paid for!

[soboss34 54]

I agree with several other posts. We don't know all of the circumstances. More than once my crew has been asked by the utility company to put out burning wires/pole after they killed the juice and we knew it was off. The pictures shouldn't be viewed as "WTF are they doing?!", but as "what would I do??" And, how would I do it safely if the power was on, off, etc. Run the gamut of scenarios and come up with the rights answers. What the department did in the photos is done. Glad no one got hurt. Leave it at that. And by the way, at least someone remembered not to use water on an electrical fire

[MoFire390 118]

#1 if you dont have the proper information you should not be posting this picture!!!!!! the lines were cut off and the chief was given the go ahead by con ed to put out the visible fire.

#2 this is a local fire department and the chief of the department is a family friend.

#3 i called this in I was at the hospital when this happened i watched it from the ER entrance.

#4 He's using a dry chem. I myself have seen people using water cans in short bursts to put out lines on fire. as long as there is not a long spray from a water can you are completely safe. this is what I was told by a line men for con ed.

[TimesUp 148]

Why would a Chief be standing on the cab putting out the fire? Were there no firefighters around? Its tough to run a scene when your operating. I don't think he'll do that again. Con ed told him its ok to stand on the cab and put it out?

[newsbuff 286]

#2 this is a local fire department and the chief of the department is a family friend.

So because this person is a friend of yours, we can't talk about a big operational error that he made? So that means if my friend isn't wearing his gear right, or not wearing it at all, I should just overlook it because friendship comes before safety?

[jack10562 414]

#4 hes using a dry chem. i myself have seen people using water cans in short bursts to put out lines on fire. as long as there is not a long spray from a water can u are completely safe. this is what i was told by a line men for con ed.

Using water on any energized electrical wiring that is on fire is a bad idea and I don't think any line officer would instruct his men to do so, but it has been done, however, if it's a live13,800 volt primary feeder cable, then chances are very good one won't live to tell about it.

More importantly, let's remember not to get overconfident on when water is acceptable to use on any class C fire.

[x635 4,066]

OK, here's the deal on this post, so pay attention everyone:

1. Moderation policy is not to be discussed openly in a thread. If you have an issue, contact a staff member or use the contact system.

2. In regards to past posts, when a photographer posts photos, we don't dissect them because that's not what they are posted for. Not to disect.

3. Difference to #2: Department was obscured, photo was published on an international website, that has a copyright that allows replublication to enhance firefighter safety. Not everyone can assume and associate an apparatus with a department.

4. A Forum Manager specifically said we are not identifying the department. No department is being bashed, only the actions of one individual. From jack10562 posted above, post #15,

Some of you may know who is involved, please let's keep that information to ourselves. They know who they are.

5. While a series of photos may not show the whole story, sometimes a single photo speaks volumes, as this one does. Kind of like a "photo finish" in a race.....

6. Deleting this thread would do a tremendous injustice to the fire service. This action could have directly and easily resulted in a fatality, an LODD.

If you have an issue with this post BESIDES MY OPINION ON THE INCIDENT ITSELF BELOW, see #1. Otherwise, continue discussion on the photo.

[x635 4,066]

And now my opinion:

In speaking with a Con Ed Electric Emergency Service Supervisor, even if the line was cut and the insulation was on fire, the Con Ed worker would still need his safety gear and the bucket right on the line, with Con Ed using the extinguisher. A Con Ed Worker, on that type of pole, can never guarentee the power's been cut especially with so many other services using the pole. Also, Con Ed would extinush the fire, and probaly splice at that location. It should also note that the insulation is designed to be fire resistant. And if you've ever seen a Con Ed guy suit up for burning wires, there's a reason for all that safety gear. And I'm sure he's qualified to operate a dry chem.

I don't care who can identify the department, and who can't. The Chief should be setting an example. The Chief should be an Incident Commander, and how is he in position to do on top of an apparatus cab? And that Incident Commander should have a Con Ed SUPERVISOR right next to him at the command post and operating under the DIRECT advisment of that supervisor.

The fire service is not a popularity contest. We all make mistakes. I don't care who this person is, but if he made a mistake, he should own up to his mistake and take full accountability for everything he does. That goes for everyone. Using friendship or any other excuse to justify the actions in the photos is unprofessional. And, are you going to let your friends do things that are unsafe, or let them get away with it "because you know them" so you can visit them in the hospital or worse?

Obviously, this Chief is friends with many on this forum-and is probaly even a member. Therefore, he could easily pass along a message regarding his actions if he wishes to do so.

If this was some department way out west let's say, the same people complaining about this post would have very different attitudes.

This is a life or death action. Anyone who finds this acceptable needs to be retrained in Basic Firefighter, and Electrical Emergenies, and then tested on it. Any department member needs to wonder if he would put his firefighters into a situation where they may not go home to their families? If there is not an immediate threat to life in this situations, let it burn! I highly doubt with all the rain up there that brush would be an issue. I've heard how they did it "in the old days" until present, with a water can, but those people are lucky. Additonally, as for positioning the apparatus, why is it right under the pole,crossarms, and wires?

Down here right now, wires down are a major emergency as it could spark a fire that burns thousands of acres. Still, crews contain the fire from a safe distance, and lets the power company cut the actual line and do whatever needs to be done with it. I don't see any major emergency present in the photo.

OK, to sum up my long winded post:

TRUST THE EXPERTISE OF CON EDISON They aren't sitting around on a beach somewhere playing with thermostats and feeding solar power back into the grid and the such, they are out there.....if it's a major emergency or threat, you will get a response. If not, wait.

Friends don't let friends fry.

[16fire5 693]

Risk vs. Benifit

Huge risk-no benifit. If it really needs to be put out let Con Ed do it.