Extrication Tactics - Person pinned under car

[mikeinet 37]

cross posting from another Fire/EMS site... not sure if this has been posted here yet, but pretty stunning video.

Communication, communication, communication!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/rescue_horror_jJHDq4XRcU9s2mNnnR6HEP

[jack10562 414]

I'm going to go out on a limb, here, and while I condemn the rescue attempt technique used, I seriously doubt that the guy would have lived, regardless.

It's not like the vehicle dropped "four feet" onto the guy, it's more like inches...the car slid to the left immediately after the rear tires lost contact with the ground.

The City just made the dead guy's estate rich beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just watched that video and all I have to say is What the ??????? obviously. Yes I understand that there is a time and place for certain types of tactics with tools, especially spreaders but quite honestly that spreader was misplaced and was not on the car's frame, nor should have that tactic been executed until all cribbing was in place and the car stabilized. NYPD's ESU member did a very wrong tactic, granted it could have happened to anyone of us. But there is a time and place for anything, this was not it.

Goes to show you rushing is not going to accomplish anything.

[ny10570 745]

No matter how critical the patient is, airbags or proper chocking are integral to preventing further injury and in the end would have resulted in a faster extrication. Spend seconds to save minutes. Isn't that why we don't run into situations. You move quickly without rushing. These officers rushed when at the very least they should have waited for the cribbing to be in place before the lift. Motorcyclist hit by a car and dragged 30'. I've seen enough pedestrians and motorcyclists to take a pretty educated guess at the injuries and I'm sure the kid was circling the drain. This is where professionalism matters most. To react calmly and think clearly. He needed to be extricated quickly, stripped and properly immobilized for rapid transport.

This goes along with why perps do better than cops in shootings. The cops are shoved in the back of a car and hauled off to the ER with no treatment enroute. The perps are left on scene where they're treated by EMS. A while ago in the Bronx PD threw the victims of a fire into the RMP and dumped them at Jacobi. Too bad the medication they needed most, hydroxycobalmin had been exhausted and the hospital had to contact FDNY for more. While that took a couple of hours, every paramedic unit, EMS command car, and MERV in the dept carries at least one dose and could have had treatment initiated faster.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Goes to show you rushing is not going to accomplish anything.

This is the truest statement thus far. I'm not going to make blanket statements about ESU vs. FD rescue operations because mistakes and accidents can happen to anyone at any time. However, FDNY truck Co.'s have the manpower advantage. With the Hurst tool and the extensive airbag equipment, it is much easier to effect a rescue when you have 5 firemen and one officer. Those firemen each have a position. One will take the tools, one the power unit, another is on chocks, ect.... ESU has only 2 members until additional units arrive and that could take quite some time.

Lifting something that weighs 3,000+lbs demands time and careful protocol. This is a terrible mistake, regardless of the fact that the individual was probably mortally wounded already. We won't know what really went wrong for sometime. All we have now is a fuzzy video and some civilian (who don't know sh!t) commentating.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

HuffPost

FDNY and NYPD first responders deny that a mishap during a rescue effort Thursday killed the young man they were trying to save.

[huzzie59 75]

Can we stay away from the ESU vs. Firefighters?

Just talk about what was done wrong and move on.

I really don't care WHO was to blame. How about talking about what was done wrong.

What was the correct thing to do?

What was could have been done if they couldn't wait? (The car was resting on the patients chest and he couldn't breath, for example).

Obviously something went wrong. I'd rather learn from it. Not try to be the judge and jury placing blame.

But that may just be me.

[IzzyEng4 427]

OKAY FOLKS HERE I GO!!!!

1 - We decided to temporarily close the topic for a few minutes as the FD vs. PD debate was getting outta hand. From this point forward if that debate is going to take place, this topic will be closed for good and if anyone complains about it, then I'll take action and start handing out detention slips (aka warnings). Or better yet, I'll show up at your front door and discuss it with you. Either way, the BS is gonna stop here (aka anti-cop / anti-fd / anti-any agency sentiment)

2 - Stay on topic, we saw what happened, like I said in my previous post this could have happened to anyone and I was also quoted on that.

3 - We can be adults here and discuss training and the events surrounding the incident. Just because some guys is wearing a different uniform than another does not matter.

4 - No slamming each other, self explanatory. If you need to PM each other with different points of view then fine, don't do it here.

5 - Strong points of view are okay to be discussed but civilly.

6 - Current posts will stay up, I'm not going to make any of them invisible. Anything that is out of line, will be removed.

This is final. I have one good arm right now but the other is fine enough if I got to knock heads here.

Joe

[Remember585 815]

1. I don't see how the car drop would have been the cause of death. Sure it sucks, but I am not convinced that's what killed this guy. Would I use the spreader to lift a car? Only if airbags weren't an option. They don't take that long to set up, if they were there. Who knows, perhaps they weren't on scene yet.

2. I always was taught that when you "lift an inch, you crib an inch."

3. As far as a PD vs. FD pissing match... at least it's not a paid FF vs. volunteer FF debate for a change...

4. This goes to show also that someone is always lurking in the shadows with video and photo capabilities. Gotta be smarter than the camera...

[IzzyEng4 427]

....3. As far as a PD vs. FD pissing match... at least it's not a paid FF vs. volunteer FF debate for a change...

John I'm taking this tongue and cheek with a smirk but like the paid / vollie fight, it's not worth it either. We all know that.

I also agree with the rest of your post especially "lift an inch......crib an inch." We are all taught that in the basics.

[Remember585 815]

John I'm taking this tongue and cheek with a smirk but like the paid / vollie fight, it's not worth it either. We all know that.

I also agree with the rest of your post especially "lift an inch......crib an inch." We are all taught that in the basics.

I was just trying to make a funny to lighten the mood...

[mahopacfire13 0]

In an emergent situation (as opposed to the other kind we deal with), like the patient can't breath d/t the cars weight, or he is being burned by the muffler, and lets say your a bystander, awaiting arrival of the rescue (A thought brought up awhile earlier) I would most likely go for the car's own jack. Somewhat stable slow lift to if nothing else, get that vehicle up a few inches to end the threat to life. However if I'm on the truck, airbags and prolific cribbing all the way! If the airbags were OOS, I would probably reach for the farm jack (High lift jack) with again lots of cribbing! I again am favoring the slow, "intimate" lift if you will, where you can feel what is going on with the load and any slippage. People dislike them at times however because you work up a sweat using them. Sometimes I think the jaws or a hydro ram can be to powerful and to quick and it's better to do it old school!

[16fire5 693]

In Manhattan these were frequent. I worked with ESU on plenty of these and they went well. Most involved fatalities. We had a floor jack on the rig which was priceless. We also had bottle jacks which i think most FDNY trucks now carry (I think ESU has them too). They work well too. You really need to get down on the ground and size up where your going to lift off. This is where the mechanical aptitude of our people comes in real handy and I would agree with most that the Xbox generation is not as savy in this realm but they sure can text. Also being the officer you really need to be the boss at these things. People are trying to do there best to save a life in a desperate situation. It's the job of chief and company officers to slow the incident down and assure we act in quick but planned deliberate ways.

I think we can all learn from this. First the spreader is a bad option especially with all the other stuff we carry these days. Also company officers should be a strong presence at these incidents. Get right to where the work will be done and give direction.