Proper Firefighting PPE, Training/Emergency

[Chief21 8]

What is everyones feelings on "full PPE".

I have always followed, if the equipment has been designed and issued, its more than likely made to protect you.

We have a guy at our house who changes like the weather. He is like a real A$$ when it comes to telling him "your doing it wrong";

i.e., no nomex hood when in a taxpayer live burn, or no nomex during car fires, not clasping helmet (and losing it coming down a ladder.

And yet he is the first one to fight with everyone, if someone besides him does it.

We use differant tools for differant jobs, firefighting, EMS, HAZMAT, CS, etc.

But when it comesto PPE it can be life or death.

Thank you and be safe.

[x129K 1,393]

I like my gear and I like my life, so I wear it all calls, regardless. I may not do my chinstrrap, or pull ip my hood all of the time, but wneh the time comes, I pretty much make sure I weear it all.

[Ga-Lin 86]

What is everyones feelings on "full PPE".

I have always followed, if the equipment has been designed and issued, its more than likely made to protect you.

We have a guy at our house who changes like the weather. He is like a real A$$ when it comes to telling him "your doing it wrong";

i.e., no nomex hood when in a taxpayer live burn, or no nomex during car fires, not clasping helmet (and losing it coming down a ladder.

And yet he is the first one to fight with everyone, if someone besides him does it.

We use differant tools for differant jobs, firefighting, EMS, HAZMAT, CS, etc.

But when it comesto PPE it can be life or death.

Thank you and be safe.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/firefighter-unfazed-by-explosion/20tvn0sc?q=firefighter&rel=msn&from=en-us_msnhp&form=msnrll&gt1=42010%20rel=nofollow

Chief, the original video on u-tube (no longer available) showed the firefighter who would handle the hose donning his hood & helmet, as is the firefighter to his right & slightly below him in the video. This video reminded me of another incident that I attended. It was a hot Aug. day, a "minor" brush fire, the individual (their chief or asst chief) was walking around in his boots wearing shorts & a t-shirt, I guess he thought he was endowded with powers far above the ordinary mortal firefighter. An aerosol can exploded at his feet. Singed him pretty good,(actually blew his shorts off) and scared the hell out of him. I've seen o2 bottles thrown away in dumpsters by (probably) relatives of deceased family members who (hopefully) didn't know any better. Years ago a number of ff's were killed while approching an unmarked van fire when the large (5ft) tanks of compressed gas it was illegally caring blew through the rear doors. I'm sure we've all seen similar events. Years ago (during the Nam era) a buddy told me that when you're in country you're in indian territory & that no one is your friend, except the guy next to you in the same uniform, no one, no matter how friendly, harmless looking, young or innocent looking, & that you will not be truely safe until you're out of the country & back in the states. I think fire is alot like that, always unforgiving, treacherous & unpredictable. While I'm not a FF myself, the one thing I've learned over my many years of service is that there is no such thing as a "routine" call. Please make my job easier, wear your PPE & stay safe.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Ga-Lin

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Chief Henry Campbell used to talk about the advances in PPE; and the subsequent disadvantages. "Dressed To Be Killed" was how he talked about it. The one piece of gear that bothered him (and he influenced my opinion as well) is the NOMEX hood. That piece of gear completes "full encapsulation." Being fully protected is a great thing; BUT, how do you know if you're going places within a burning structure where maybe you shouldn't be, or at least for very long?

The backside of your ears used to be the spot on your body that would definitely tell you if the area you were in was too hot, and possibly about to flashover. If you felt a blister forming on your ear, you were in too far.

Firefighters have been killed in flashovers, and theoretically should they have been where they were? How can you tell if it's too hot for you to survive in a compartment/room if you are "fully encapsulated"?

That's the one piece of gear I've always questioned; ever since Chief Campbell brought it up.

Thoughts?

[bad box 371]

Chief Henry Campbell used to talk about the advances in PPE; and the subsequent disadvantages. "Dressed To Be Killed" was how he talked about it. The one piece of gear that bothered him (and he influenced my opinion as well) is the NOMEX hood. That piece of gear completes "full encapsulation." Being fully protected is a great thing; BUT, how do you know if you're going places within a burning structure where maybe you shouldn't be, or at least for very long?

The backside of your ears used to be the spot on your body that would definitely tell you if the area you were in was too hot, and possibly about to flashover. If you felt a blister forming on your ear, you were in too far.

Firefighters have been killed in flashovers, and theoretically should they have been where they were? How can you tell if it's too hot for you to survive in a compartment/room if you are "fully encapsulated"?

That's the one piece of gear I've always questioned; ever since Chief Campbell brought it up. Thoughts?

The first 13 years that I was on the job we wore 3/4 length (pull up rubber boots), a 40" long nomex turnout coat, a leather 'New Yorker' helmet (the kind that was actually fitted to the shape of your head) and OSHA approved gloves (when I was first hired we wore hardware store yard work gloves: leather palm, cloth back). There were lot's (and lot's and lot's ...) of burn injuries every year but most were 1st & 2nd degree (ears, neck, thighs, knees). Often, the nozzleman was the one who would get burned due to the scalding water and debris that would come down and get his thighs (the coat would ride up and the top of the boots would bow out while advancing the line into the fire area and 'duck walking'). Of course there were occasions where a catastrophic event would result in critical or fatal burns but that was the exception and quite frankly similar injuries would have resulted even if bunker gear was in use.

When word came that we would be issued bunker gear and hoods, we weren't as concerned about our own ability to sense how deep to go when conducting a search as we were about that of newly appointed firefighters who had never operated at fires prior to the entrance of bunker gear into the job. We knew from experience what the fire was doing because we had operated for so long wearing the 'old gear' where we had been afforded the opportunity to feel as well as see changing conditions where the new firefighters started their careers wearing the 'snowsuits'. The incidents of minor burn injuries went down while the number of serious and fatal burn injuries went up. The fatalities were sometimes due to folks venturing in too deep due to being insulated from their environment (other times they were the result of catastrophic, unforeseen events such as structural collapse caused by faulty building renovations). The non-fatal but serious burn injuries (requiring a stay in the burn center) were often due to the newer firefighters not flushing the floor prior to advancing the line after knocking down fire coupled with them crawling rather than 'duck waking'. Flushing the floor cools the superheated debris that has landed there after the stream has dislodged it from the walls and ceiling. Crawling rather than 'duck walking' causes the layers of fabric in the knee area of the bunker pants to become compressed which eliminates the air that's trapped between each layer of fabric thus defeating the insulating protection offered by the layers of material.

The problem of firefighters being trapped in flashover's seems to have increased dramatically. I believe that much of this is caused by inadequate ventilation, ventilating prior to the charged line being in position and ready to advance on the fire, ventilating too late and failure to ventilate at all coupled with the stretching of inadequate sized attack lines, failure to 'chase all kinks', failure to provided the proper nozzle pressure, failure to keep the nozzle open fully when attacking the fire, fog nozzles getting clogged with sediment and debris during the attack which limits the GPM's and in general failure to know the requirements of the type nozzle that's being used as well as the friction loss of the particular brand and model of hose that is being used (yes folks, friction loss in fire hose can differ greatly!)

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chief Henry Campbell used to talk about the advances in PPE; and the subsequent disadvantages. "Dressed To Be Killed" was how he talked about it. The one piece of gear that bothered him (and he influenced my opinion as well) is the NOMEX hood. That piece of gear completes "full encapsulation." Being fully protected is a great thing; BUT, how do you know if you're going places within a burning structure where maybe you shouldn't be, or at least for very long?

The backside of your ears used to be the spot on your body that would definitely tell you if the area you were in was too hot, and possibly about to flashover. If you felt a blister forming on your ear, you were in too far.

Firefighters have been killed in flashovers, and theoretically should they have been where they were? How can you tell if it's too hot for you to survive in a compartment/room if you are "fully encapsulated"?

That's the one piece of gear I've always questioned; ever since Chief Campbell brought it up.

Thoughts?

I've worn a hood from day one in the fire service as well as hundreds if not thousands of firefighters and I for one have never experienced an issue while wearing the hood but I can tell you on several occassions if I didn't have one I'd have no ears, and of all the firefighters who do wear them the stats don't show that its an increased risked.

A couple of points to ponder:

1. Good training in fire behavior and fire phenomenon like that of flashover, backdraft etc. gives you additional tools to recognize the indicators of backdraft which are far more reliable then feeling your ears burn. This includes the constant driving of not over advancing yourself without the protection of a hoseline and looking for these indicators along with several other things that can and often occur pre flashover.

2. Hoods are not manufactured the same way as our turnout gear. With training you learn the temperature differences through your hood as its rather tight on your neck/ears. Talk to or read about the situation of any firefighter who experienced a flashover or near flashover and they will tell you that they felt as if their hood was no longer there...or the saturation of the hood with heat.

Do what you like...but I'll keep wearing mine..its never failed me yet...nor has my brain.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Do what you like...but I'll keep wearing mine..its never failed me yet...nor has my brain.

Brother ALS, I'm retired for 5 years already. I won't be wearing or not wearing one any longer. Just wanted to stir the conversation a bit. Thanks for a really good post.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The first 13 years that I was on the job we wore 3/4 length (pull up rubber boots), a 40" long nomex turnout coat, a leather 'New Yorker' helmet (the kind that was actually fitted to the shape of your head) and OSHA approved gloves (when I was first hired we wore hardware store yard work gloves: leather palm, cloth back). There were lot's (and lot's and lot's ...) of burn injuries every year but most were 1st & 2nd degree (ears, neck, thighs, knees). Often, the nozzleman was the one who would get burned due to the scalding water and debris that would come down and get his thighs (the coat would ride up and the top of the boots would bow out while advancing the line into the fire area and 'duck walking'). Of course there were occasions where a catastrophic event would result in critical or fatal burns but that was the exception and quite frankly similar injuries would have resulted even if bunker gear was in use.

When word came that we would be issued bunker gear and hoods, we weren't as concerned about our own ability to sense how deep to go when conducting a search as we were about that of newly appointed firefighters who had never operated at fires prior to the entrance of bunker gear into the job. We knew from experience what the fire was doing because we had operated for so long wearing the 'old gear' where we had been afforded the opportunity to feel as well as see changing conditions where the new firefighters started their careers wearing the 'snowsuits'. The incidents of minor burn injuries went down while the number of serious and fatal burn injuries went up. The fatalities were sometimes due to folks venturing in too deep due to being insulated from their environment (other times they were the result of catastrophic, unforeseen events such as structural collapse caused by faulty building renovations). The non-fatal but serious burn injuries (requiring a stay in the burn center) were often due to the newer firefighters not flushing the floor prior to advancing the line after knocking down fire coupled with them crawling rather than 'duck waking'. Flushing the floor cools the superheated debris that has landed there after the stream has dislodged it from the walls and ceiling. Crawling rather than 'duck walking' causes the layers of fabric in the knee area of the bunker pants to become compressed which eliminates the air that's trapped between each layer of fabric thus defeating the insulating protection offered by the layers of material.

The problem of firefighters being trapped in flashover's seems to have increased dramatically. I believe that much of this is caused by inadequate ventilation, ventilating prior to the charged line being in position and ready to advance on the fire, ventilating too late and failure to ventilate at all coupled with the stretching of inadequate sized attack lines, failure to 'chase all kinks', failure to provided the proper nozzle pressure, failure to keep the nozzle open fully when attacking the fire, fog nozzles getting clogged with sediment and debris during the attack which limits the GPM's and in general failure to know the requirements of the type nozzle that's being used as well as the friction loss of the particular brand and model of hose that is being used (yes folks, friction loss in fire hose can differ greatly!)

As always G, awesome post. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Chief Henry Campbell used to talk about the advances in PPE; and the subsequent disadvantages. "Dressed To Be Killed" was how he talked about it. The one piece of gear that bothered him (and he influenced my opinion as well) is the NOMEX hood. That piece of gear completes "full encapsulation." Being fully protected is a great thing; BUT, how do you know if you're going places within a burning structure where maybe you shouldn't be, or at least for very long?

The backside of your ears used to be the spot on your body that would definitely tell you if the area you were in was too hot, and possibly about to flashover. If you felt a blister forming on your ear, you were in too far.

Firefighters have been killed in flashovers, and theoretically should they have been where they were? How can you tell if it's too hot for you to survive in a compartment/room if you are "fully encapsulated"?

That's the one piece of gear I've always questioned; ever since Chief Campbell brought it up. Thoughts?

Great points George. We had many similar questions until an insident a few years ago. We had a fire in a private single family home. Heavy smoke on the 2nd floor, almost none on the 1st. little or no visable flame. OVM took out a window in a 2nd floor bedroom. Heavy smoke pushed out and then it flashed.

At the time an engine company on the 1st floor was in the living room below the fire. They were fully encapsulated including hoods. light haze, no heat (confirmed by TIC). When the room above flashed the force knocked down the living room ceiling and the crew encountered flame and very high heat. 1 member recieved 2nd degree burns to his ears after the hood burned thru 1 of its 2 layers.

If he had not been wearing one, we do not know how bad the injuries would have been.

I think the real debate of feeling the changing conditions is this:

If you are crawling thru high heat, with a hood you may not notice the minor heat changes that occur as flashover nears. But, if you encounter a sudden change in conditions not having the hood will be a problem and having the hood will not limit your ability to notice (because it happens to fast)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Great points George. We had many similar questions until an insident a few years ago. We had a fire in a private single family home. Heavy smoke on the 2nd floor, almost none on the 1st. little or no visable flame. OVM took out a window in a 2nd floor bedroom. Heavy smoke pushed out and then it flashed.

At the time an engine company on the 1st floor was in the living room below the fire. They were fully encapsulated including hoods. light haze, no heat (confirmed by TIC). When the room above flashed the force knocked down the living room ceiling and the crew encountered flame and very high heat. 1 member recieved 2nd degree burns to his ears after the hood burned thru 1 of its 2 layers.

If he had not been wearing one, we do not know how bad the injuries would have been.

I think the real debate of feeling the changing conditions is this:

If you are crawling thru high heat, with a hood you may not notice the minor heat changes that occur as flashover nears. But, if you encounter a sudden change in conditions not having the hood will be a problem and having the hood will not limit your ability to notice (because it happens to fast)

Nice reply Cap, thanks. I hope the injured Brother made a full recovery. But let me ask; is there a solution to the issue of getting yourself into places where you are susceptible to getting caught in a flashover? Should a member occasionally remove a glove and raise his hand into the thermal layers to gauge the intensity of the heat in the compartment? I've read articles that stated to this, and also articles that stated to never take your gloves off.

Of course these issues would mostly arise with the Truck Company member doing the search above the fire floor; probably the most dangerous place to be as they most often do not have the benefit of a hoseline for protection.

What do you think is the best course of action (for our younger members benefit) to avoid inadvertently getting yourself too far into a room that is so hot the contents are about to burst into flame; ie the flashover?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nice reply Cap, thanks. I hope the injured Brother made a full recovery. But let me ask; is there a solution to the issue of getting yourself into places where you are susceptible to getting caught in a flashover? Should a member occasionally remove a glove and raise his hand into the thermal layers to gauge the intensity of the heat in the compartment? I've read articles that stated to this, and also articles that stated to never take your gloves off.

Of course these issues would mostly arise with the Truck Company member doing the search above the fire floor; probably the most dangerous place to be as they most often do not have the benefit of a hoseline for protection.

What do you think is the best course of action (for our younger members benefit) to avoid inadvertently getting yourself too far into a room that is so hot the contents are about to burst into flame; ie the flashover?

Every company must have and be well trained with AT LEAST 1 T.I.C. for EVERY interior crew.

If your department does not have at least 1 T.I.C. on every rig......WHY NOT? When you buy a new ladder that costs $750,000 - $1.2m and you cant afford a couple of $10,000-$20,000 T.I.C's you need to consider what you are doing.

How much does the gold leaf or the fancy drawing cost?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Bnechis

[x129K 1,393]

In regards to occasionally removing a glove - I dont know about you, but my gloves, with any hint of moisture in them, be it persperation or water - they can be a real hassle to get back on..

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Brother ALS, I'm retired for 5 years already. I won't be wearing or not wearing one any longer. Just wanted to stir the conversation a bit. Thanks for a really good post.

I understand brother...I was just doing the same.

As far as taking a glove off, I'm not an advocate of removing any equipment when operating and to me that's right up there with the "I leave one ear out" comment I hear from time to time. As Barry said the PROPER use of a person trained in TIC operations is extrememly helpful. But it has to be noted as well...just as with any piece of equipment it can also cause you issues if not used properly. Situational awareness is another and having a good understanding of fire behavior coupled with building construction was well does help. TIC or not...I always (try) to take note of conditions when first entering and looking for the subtle changes as well as the fast ones (you usually can't miss those! lol). This also ties into the knowing why you do or don't do something instead of just how thread comes into play.

[JFLYNN 681]

What is everyones feelings on "full PPE".

I have always followed, if the equipment has been designed and issued, its more than likely made to protect you.

We have a guy at our house who changes like the weather. He is like a real A$$ when it comes to telling him "your doing it wrong";

i.e., no nomex hood when in a taxpayer live burn, or no nomex during car fires, not clasping helmet (and losing it coming down a ladder.

And yet he is the first one to fight with everyone, if someone besides him does it.

We use differant tools for differant jobs, firefighting, EMS, HAZMAT, CS, etc.

But when it comesto PPE it can be life or death.

Thank you and be safe.

Is that a misprint or are you truly an Assistant Chief at between 21-24 years old?