Revisit an old yet interesting topic

[firemoose827 324]

Sorry, but I've got to drag this dead horse out here once again. I keep on seeing people go back and forth between what seems like smooth bore vs everyone else. Me, I'm in the smooth bore camp, so I'm trying to find out what it is that I am missing. Here's what I know...

Flow - All things equal you will always get more water out of a smooth bore. It is a clear opening to the hose line. I have yet to see any other nozzle that can match the flow of a smooth bore given equal pump pressure.

Reaction Pressure - Reaction pressure is generated by the friction of the water passing through the nozzel. In a smooth bore the friction is generated by the narrowing of the waterway. It is also this pressure that propels the water and gives the stream its reach. With an automatic there is significantly more reaction pressure due to the more complicated waterway.

Pump pessure - When faced with a weak hydrant or a long stretch the 50 psi difference between smooth bore and automatics can go a long way. 180 gpm through 1 3/4" gets an extra 100'. Not bad for those of us out there that love our mile long cross lays out there. And for those with garbage hydrant pressure who can barely fill a hand line without collapsing the water mains, it also makes a difference.

Deploying - Now this is more subjective, but it is definitely easier to move a charged line with 50psi less pressure in it. The debate is over kinks in the line. Personally I would rather have a line I can operate effectively alone so that with two we can move it with little effort. Then you can send the third man to ensure there are no kinks. With the harder higher pressure line sure, you can handle it on your own, but how well can you advance it. With water flowing you're going to need three people and it is much harder.

Maintenance - Unless you break the bail clean off you can do whatever you want to and flow what ever you want through a smooth bore. Debris can kill an automatic and you have to ensure they are properly adjusted.

I had a playful argument with an older ex-chief at drill the other night. We discussed the smooth bore he found on the hose bed on our engine during a recent fire we had. He started to bash the nozzle and say that any good firefighter knows that a fog nozzle is the best kind to use. Intrigued by his remarks I asked him why he felt that way. He explained that the smooth bore nozzles knock everything in the room around and mess up the evidence of the investigation later on. I proceeded to tell him that the untrained firefighter with a fog nozzle could very well do that also, and that the fog nozzles disrupt the thermal layer and if your not carefull and do not coordinate with the vent team you could steam yourself and the crew and become human lobsters. The argument went back and forth, and ended at the end of the night with a playful smack on the back of my head and me being called "A stubborn @$#%^"

So, at risk of being yelled at and accused of starting a thread that has already been talked about, I searched in the database and found this one started back in 2006, and thought i could please interest all of you in sharing additional, up-to-date information about the two types of nozzles and what your preference and personal experiences are with them. This way I can arm myself with more info for "round two" next Monday night!

I figured that since this post has been retired, there have got to be atleast 100 newer members that have not participated in this discussion and thought it would be beneficial to everyone, creating another positive learning evironment for the younger members.

So, without further adieu....Let the games begin.

PS-keep it civil and clean, offer info both positive and negative but keep it professional, and remember there are members out there who want to know this stuff but are afraid to ask.

Thanks and Stay Safe.

[x129K 1,393]

Good topic.

And I KNOW there are alot of experienced engine guys here..looking forward to the replies.

My department is all automatic nozzles, but I really would like to see us phase in smooth bores.

[joey01 10]

If you needed to make an attack on an interior fire with only what is in your tank, lets say 500 gallons, I would go with a fog nozzel. I was taught that you can extinguish more fire with less water using a fog nozzel.

[firemoose827 324]

Ok, list the pros and cons of both. Try and get as many as you can and list them here, just quote the last person and continue their list and see how big we can make the list.

Ill start it off.

Smoothe Bore

1- Pro- Less pressure, easily manageable with limited manpower

2- Pro- More penetration to the seat of the fire, less disruption of the thermal layer

Fog Nozzle

1- Pro- Protection from heat with fog pattern.

2- Con- Higher PSI needed for effective flow.

[norestriction 10]

If you needed to make an attack on an interior fire with only what is in your tank, lets say 500 gallons, I would go with a fog nozzel. I was taught that you can extinguish more fire with less water using a fog nozzel.

Fog nozzle in an interior operations ??? have you ever use a fog nozzle interior before?

Edited August 24, 2011 by norestriction

[Atv300 69]

I will use a bucket if it puts out the fire but I am a fan of somthing like a fixed 75psi combo but break apart so you have the option of smooth bore. We can break out the science trust me we did it in school they can be so close its preferences. No matter what stay away from automatics think about what can and has gone wrong. Train train and train again on whatever you use.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If you needed to make an attack on an interior fire with only what is in your tank, lets say 500 gallons, I would go with a fog nozzel. I was taught that you can extinguish more fire with less water using a fog nozzel.

OK, I'd like to hear how this is done, short of applying an indirect attack. I think we've all, or most, come to the realization that gpm puts out the fire, not psi. In most interior work the difference in streams is low on the list of which actually puts out more fire, while in fact the firefighter controlling the nozzle will have far more to do with it. Ever seen American Pie? Some firefighters are like the kid and the exchange student, over before they start, while others could star in a movie for more mature audiences.

Fog Nozzle

1- Pro- Protection from heat with fog pattern.

2- Con- Higher PSI needed for effective flow.

OK, I'll bite here. For the sake of discussion let's hear how the fog pattern protects you from heat?

I'd add that many new fog nozzles have the capability of being preset from the factory with lower nozzle pressures for their intended flows. For instance, you can buy a 175 gpm @50 psi fog nozzle now, countering at least a few of the arguments smoothbore fans have touted for years.

Edited August 24, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[x129K 1,393]

OK..so what is the BEST nozzle on the market today? 1 3/4.... primary use would be OSW.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Simplicity and efficiency. We all know we run more BS and less fire then the guys of the elder years did way before my time, and a lot of places do no have the training capabilities to consistently train on automatic and combination nozzles. Most departments do not cross train either, so when you have department x, coming to department y, who has never used a combo nozzle before, you're asking for someone to get hurt.

In my opinion, the smooth bore is the perfect nozzle for initial, interior structural attack purpose. There are no rotating bumpers to worry about smacking around and turning to a fog pattern; there are no GPM selectors that can get rotated to flush greatly reducing your GPM's, there are no fingers in a rotating fan that can get jammed up with a pebble the size of a rats n*ts that will ruin your day, there is just a simple bale for open and close, and enough room to expell any crap that makes it through the pump to the nozzle.

Fog nozzles are great for exposure protection, overhaul and Christmas tree fires at the training center. Leave them on the rig until they are needed, and apply them as such.

Again, this is just my opinion. unfortunately, its not the opinion of my department. Depending on the engine in my department, there are a few 1.75" with smooth bores, and all 2.5" lines have smooth bores. Like I've said before, leave the combo/auto nozzle in the chauffeurs compartment for when it is needed, and leave the handlines with a smooth bore preconnected.

Edited August 24, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[ny10570 745]

When I first joined up fogs were popular for their small droplet size and ability to "push fire". The smooth bore camp sought fat dropplets of water that could absorb heat and proved good penetration. It seems for nozzles are bragging about becoming more like smooth bore. Bigger droplets and more penetration. So why not just go with smooth bore?

As for the newer nozzles, if they can achieve 175gpm @50psi, then what is the trade off? To get the same volume moving at the same pressure through a smaller hole you're going to lose in reach.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I think pretty much most of us know that S/B has the volume, the reach, the lower psi, etc. Question is; why are so many understaffed career, combo, or volunteer jobs, and their chiefs stuck on sticking with "automatic" "fog" call them what you want nozzles?

Was it just crafty salesmanship that sold so many of them to so many departments?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited August 24, 2011 by efdcapt115

[antiquefirelt 994]

As for the newer nozzles, if they can achieve 175gpm @50psi, then what is the trade off? To get the same volume moving at the same pressure through a smaller hole you're going to lose in reach.

I guess to save any confusion I'll say I favor smoothbores for most fire attack applications, while knowing the fog is a better choice in a few circumstances. But, to fair, we must address some of the issues that cause us to "misspeak" about either type of nozzle tip. In many recent test from around the country, in head to head comparison the fog either equals the SB or exceeds it in reach. Now this doesn't include loss of actual water due to heat or wind, but just straight up, matching gpm for gpm, they are fairly well matched. Again, in a typical non commercial structure fire the reach differences will not be a factor.

EFFDCAPT: I can only surmise the reason so many fog nozzles continue to see frontline use is that those people making the key decisions of today came up during those years that we used smaller 1.5" lines with fogs flowing less than 100 gpm (thought we had more!) and literally pushed the fire from the unburned to the burned side and out windows and doors. At the same time we were shown how the fog nozzle could be opened to keep cool air coming in from behind to reduce the heat we felt, and to help push the heat, fire and smoke away from us. Houses we not nearly as tight so the effects of fog and steam were not felt as soon as in today's ultra energy efficient homes/buildings. So of our older guys started just as SCBA were coming out and went from no SCBA, thin bunkers and boots, rubber gloves and armed with smoothbore to fully dressed out in bunker gear, with an SCBA and a fog nozzle and were able to get all the way to the seat of the fire that they would have previously knocked down from the hall. They were sold that this was the only way to go. Today we can readily see and scientifically show the effects of energy efficient structures, fire and how a fog pattern vs. smoothbore changes the environment for us and any would be victims.

Just because smoothbores were around before fog, doesn't mean they weren't the best choice all along. One must really separate the BS reasons from the real ones to have valid debate. To me it comes down to the size of the droplets. Andy Fredricks was showing us this in terms everyone could understand before he was taken along with 342 more of our Brothers.

[firemoose827 324]

OK, I'd like to hear how this is done, short of applying an indirect attack. I think we've all, or most, come to the realization that gpm puts out the fire, not psi. In most interior work the difference in streams is low on the list of which actually puts out more fire, while in fact the firefighter controlling the nozzle will have far more to do with it. Ever seen American Pie? Some firefighters are like the kid and the exchange student, over before they start, while others could star in a movie for more mature audiences.

OK, I'll bite here. For the sake of discussion let's hear how the fog pattern protects you from heat?

I'd add that many new fog nozzles have the capability of being preset from the factory with lower nozzle pressures for their intended flows. For instance, you can buy a 175 gpm @50 psi fog nozzle now, countering at least a few of the arguments smoothbore fans have touted for years.

This was a Pro that was given to me by the ex-chief in my department. I thought I would be fair in using it to start discussion in this thread. I agree, using fog will not protect you inside when the temps are high, it will just generate more steam that will envelop you and your team and cook you like lobsters. The reason most interior teams face high temps is because they are using fog streams and disrupting the thermal layer, pushing it everywhere and feeling the heat. I am a big proponent of crawling in under the thermal layer to find the seat of the fire and putting water directly on it. The bigger the droplets the more heat is absorbed and the more fire you put out.

I held back on some of the comments given to me by this ex-chief to see what others would say first. Here is one. He responded to a structure fire we had a month ago and it was a day time call, so we had no manpower initially. So it was him and another firefighter. They strecthed 2 lines off the rear of our engine, one was a 1.75" with a fog (that the other guy got) and the other was an 1.75" with a smooth bore. He complained that he couldnt handle the line because it was a smooth bore and it was lifting him off the ground. What he failed to realise...the pump operator was giving the PSI needed to run the fog nozzle, 100PSI, and the smooth bore, only requiring 60PSI got the 100 instead. But, if you operate the SB at the pressure needed its easier to maneuver and handle with one person, and you get the droplets needed to absorb the heat faster and not steam yourself.

Good discussion so far, keep it up everyone. Hey X129 where is all the experienced engine men you were referring too? Lets discuss and share!

[Atv300 69]

I am still hearing problems that are human error like was said before you can put a s/b against a combo and they perform pretty dam close. Either nozzle can get you introuble if used wrong pumped wrong. The only way to know is get the salesman to come out with both and a flow meeter get the hose rep to show up too and mix match hose and nozzle combos look at the numbers. Get your ff's on the ground moving around with it see what they think the put it all together when you get 180gpm + out of the right combination of items. Oh and invite all the pump operaters to show you don't need 400 psi to pump anymore. And get rid of automatics they are kilers.

[Atv300 69]

Tonight we had a local reps come out with a truck full of goodies to play with as far a nozzle's and a few hoses. After tonight personally I am kind of sold on a S/B able to have a combo head screwed on. After all that said here are some of the numbers and the nozzle's/ hoses used.

So we broke out the 1 1/2" in line GPM/PSI flow meter and started hooking up some diff nozzle's and hoses looking for the best setup.

1) The current setup on one of our cross lays just on our reserve engine but pretty much the same on ever one except for use. 200' 1 3/4" pon lite with a TFT mid matic 100 psi. combo 130 psi. pump pressure first run flowed 130 gpms *this is why i say automatic nozzles are bad anymore after a little spray of some lube and whatever the rep did back up to 160 to 175 gpm range* but here is the deal is it always gonna work all the time.

2) Grabbed a VIT nozzle of the reps truck this is where i started getting impressed same hose same pump pressure but now 15/16ths smooth bore 160 to 170 gpms again but considerable less psi at the tip and the nice stream thats expected out of a S/B but the kicker was there was under a cover that with a turn exposed 1 1/2" threads where either another length of hose can be added if needed or screw on a combo head very nice idea.

3) Switched the vit but 1" S/B opining over to a 200' run of fire quip hose 1.88" interior diameter opened it up 125 pump pressure now it gets better 205 to 210 gpms at 55psi tip and the numbers with this hose stayed pretty impressive all the way down to 100psi pump pressure and lower but the best part was hooking up the TFT fixed 50psi combo head only lost 5 gpms still easy to handle like the S/B by itself but versatility for a car fire exposer protection whatever if needed. So in the end I would say this combo of hose, nozzle, and combo head works great and in the future will be replacing the current setups.

The nice thing found with the vit/metro 2 setup is we can gain advantages even with the current hose if need be untill we can upgrade still got 180Gpm 1" S/B and 175Gpm 50Psi fixed combo nozzel. All the guys seemed to love the lower Psi at the nozzle.

Hope this helps like I have said before the only way to find what is truly better is to go use it get out the flow meeter and see what it dose weather its Akron, tft, or whoever making the nozzle. there were more test and numbers but you get the drift.

Here are some links if any one is curious on the hose/ nozzle combo that we liked.

TFT VIT

TFT Metro II

Firequip classic victory

[firemoose827 324]

Thanks for that detailed info Atv300, I was looking for responses like that and I appreciate your participation.

But...Where is everyone else? Are nozzles too trivial a thing for most of you to talk about? Is the topic beneath you? I was hoping for a great discussion with personal experiences and even drill experiences like Atv300 brought up to generate educational lessons for the younger members who may be reading this but too shy to respond. Lets get some more input please?!?!?!

I plan on having a drill next monday night and go through advancing hose lines, handling them, picking the right size and type of nozzle and their patterns, than finish it off with a roundtable discussion and have each member bring up something they know about them. See how it works and I will let you all know.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not a nozzle expert...but I've heard many of the arguments used to promote both styles of nozzles...most are inaccurate and even a few I've read in your posts that were said to you are outdated practices that have been shown to even be dangerous. Most of the combo/fog nozzle arguments I get at work are from the guys who went to the academy and were trained during the big combo/fog nozzle heydays of the late 70's/early 80's.

Here are some of the myths I've heard, read and a couple said to me over the years:

1. You get more reach with a SB. Tests have shown time and time again that when flowed at the right PDP...both will get the same reach.

2. SB have more volume. Again this depends on what your pumping at. 150 GPM's are 150 GPM's if that is what your standard flow is. A combo/fog you can get up to 175 GPM's. A SB with 15/16" tip you can get up to around 185 GPM with 1 3/4".

3. You have less nozzle reaction with a SB. Again this depends on the flow. At 150 GPM it will have less. But if you are getting up in the 175-185 GPM range you start to equal the NR of a combo/fog at 150.

4. You can put out more fire with less water. Really? Our business is about flow. GPM's are GPM's and you want to overwhelm the BTU output of the fire with more BTU absorption capability in water then it wants to put out. Steam does help obviously with the process and you will more then likely get more faster with a combo/fog being its droplets formed into a stream. But is that always better? With good stream management and movement you are using the ceiling and walls to break up your solid stream into for lack of a better term broken stream to get both. If a combo/fog puts out more fire...hell why do we still have 2 1/2" lines if we can do more with less with that nozzle?

5. Here's one that was said to me when I inquired about switching to SB at a previous vollie dept. I was a member of. "We thought about it but my brother and I agreed that these guys would waste the water." My answer: 150 GPM is 150 GPM no matter what its coming out of. And if that's the case..then we have a training issue.

6. Combo/fog can protect you from heat. OK. yes it can but in very specific applications. The old right to fight stayed....but left for life has long been thrown away as ineffective and downright dangerous. Nothing beats cooling a thermal layer line a well placed and well delivered fire stream to the upper areas. The biggest thing that will protect you from flashover is recognition, proper placement in a room to get out in time and wearing all your PPE.

7. You can't hydraulically ventilate with a SB. Actually you can, its just not as efficient as a combo/fog and if your basing your nozzle purchases and use on that sole operation...well all I can say IMHO...is have at it...but you scare me.

8. Just to be fair. SB doesn't go without any issues either. If you have a SB nozzle particularly on 1 3/4" lines, one problem you can have at the lower GPM rates like 150 GPM is that the hose at those lighter pressures will not be firm enough to support the nozzle depending on its weight. It will cause a kink just behind the coupling and when getting vigorous with our patterns can cause a whipping action of the nozzle.

My final bottom line is this...while I prefer SB on handlines...and no matter what you prefer you better have good fire stream management period. I've never stretched a line and said damn this is going to be tougher because I have xyz nozzle. Know what you have and be good at using them. Only thing I am an advocate staunch on is having SB for master streams. They are less susceptible to environmental factors and it does give you better penetration into a thermal column. My experience also is pump operators underflow combo/fog master streams especially on auto nozzles because the stream looks good generally at any GPM, nor do they have a good grasp on what is even being flowed. With SB you know a target number, you can calculate it quickly and the stream says a lot...underflowed or overflowed.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Anyone interested - A comprehensive report comparing Akron & Elkhart Brass Smooth Bore & Automatic Nozzles by the West Metro Fire Dept (Co. 1 B Shift) including a number of great articles written by Andy Fredericks.

Great read if you have some time to kill:

http://api.ning.com/files/Q0-pPg6YaoW*e7QTk3IsuHe8QL-uEheNl1fEiNmlBiE5BN6WFH6*85-6qlkJ6lk*cI009DO70GaSArSYXAZyh-lE6Ylz3CsW/WMFRNozzleStudy.pdf

It's a shame that Andy isn't here today to make his arguement for smooth bore. RIP.

Here are some great videos that show the dangers of debris in combo nozzles.

Be safe!

[FDNY 10-75 640]

[FDNY 10-75 640]

[x129K 1,393]

Tonight we had a local reps come out with a truck full of goodies to play with as far a nozzle's and a few hoses. After tonight personally I am kind of sold on a S/B able to have a combo head screwed on. After all that said here are some of the numbers and the nozzle's/ hoses used.

So did we buy anything?

[Atv300 69]

Its not out of the question if we buy most likely it will be the setup I showed with the links. So yea we will now have some s/b if we buy but remember its a big chunk of change for the switch so its gonna take time if that route is taken.

[16fire5 693]

I think ALS put it best. There is no substitute for an experinced nozzle team. Lots of career "truck" no engine time guys take the engine for granted and fail to realize the work technique involved in extinguishment.

I have used both automatic and smooth bore to put out structure fires and I prefer the smooth bore. One benifit that may seem trivial but I don't think has been mentioned is when advancing on a fire most of us move the nozzle. The smooth bore will definatly be the lightest. Anyone who has made a real push will realize that your arms get fatigued. And by real push I mean move the nozzle down the hall and extinguish more than one room. Anyone can get to a doorway and spray water to put out a room and contents fire.

I would also advocate using the smooth bore with 2.5 in standpipe situations. The chances of running into water problems are compounded when using a standpipe. Many times the PRD can not be removed. You also tend to get some real dirty water out of standpipes which could become problematic for an automatic nozzle. Those issues to me make a 2.5 with smooth bore nozzle the best choice for standpipe evolutions. An 1 1/8" tip on the smooth bore will give an effective stream with as low as 40 psi at the nozzle.

Lastly what ever you have DRILL. Make sure your chauffeurs are pumping them right. Flake out the line, chase the kinks.

[sklov5949 23]

Here's a recent Part 1 of 2 Article in the Fire Chief Magazine. Its worth a read! http://firechief.com/suppression/ar/combination-vs-smooth-bore-nozzles-201108/

[wraftery 1,275]

Try this at your next training burn (or actual 1-room fire). Somebody called "tried but true" ( That means it worked for a very long time).

Engine company:

Stretch 1 3/4 with SB to the fire room and control the door. Keep it closed if possible.

Ladder Company or the company performing vent:

Find the window showing fire behind it and vent same.

Engine Company:

You will hear the glass break. Open the door, let the fire "light," bang your stream off the ceiling for a few seconds then hit the seat of the fire.

I Said nothing but "try it". If you like it, use it.

Oh, by the way, if you all have radios, the Engine guys don't have to listen for breaking glass.

[PaulBalentine 13]

COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!! Those who are not using smoothbore nozzles or have not used them in actual fire conditions should try them out before knocking them. My Volley dept. runs SB nozzles on 1 of our 2 crosslays (the "blue" line) and our 300' "apartment line" off the rear of our rigs (the "orange" line) that is just for our 1 3/4" on our 2 1/2" preconnects we run a triple stacked tip "playpipe" (1" 1 1/8" and 1 1/4") We have been running some SB nozzles for about 7 or 8 years and have had great success with it.....The chief (my father) wasn't a huge SB fan because he came on in 1972, the beginning of the end of the SB nozzle hey-day. He like many old timers you all have described had MANY reservations and mis-conceptions about the SB nozzle. I tried all the angles, including flow tests etc.....Finally what worked was when I told him that WE were the ones using it and WE liked it. HE wasn't going to use them so HE didn't have to like them. He just had to give me the OK to order them, which he finally did......now our rigs are all standardized, and the FF (the end-user) has a choice on the fireground whether they want the "blue line" (SB) or the "yellow line" (adjustable gallonage foz nozzle) It's been my experience that 8 times out of 10 the guys are pulling the SB (blue line) on the fireground. It has really taken hold here.

I have done much research and worked all the angles.....I think the reach argument is crap. I don't need 100' of reach.... 25' is sufficient inside a fire....the SB nozzle WILL hydraulic vent (not as great as the fog nozzle, but, you don't buy a nozzle based on your ventilation concerns) I think where the battle is won and lost is in the nozzle reaction. with a fog nozzle when the NR gets to be too great what do we do??? GATE IT BACK!!!! what happens now is you have restricted your discharge orifice now compromising GPM's which overcome BTU's as we all know. With a SB nozzle you have much less NR so the nozzle is less apt to be gated down thus leaving you more GPM's available to fight the fire.

There are pros and cons to every nozzle, thus there are room for all in our "toolbox" the SB nozzle wont "do it all" but if I am going into a structure fire, I will be sure to have selected the "blue line" on my rig!!!!!!!

below are links to my Volley dept. web page a couple stories relating to our nozzle standardization project and our standardization of colors for our hose loads.

take a look at them and tell me what you think......

http://www.yorkvillagefire.com/news/fullstory/newsid/127739

one more:

http://www.yorkvillagefire.com/news/fullstory/newsid/142514

Try this at your next training burn (or actual 1-room fire). Somebody called "tried but true" ( That means it worked for a very long time).

Engine company:

Stretch 1 3/4 with SB to the fire room and control the door. Keep it closed if possible.

Ladder Company or the company performing vent:

Find the window showing fire behind it and vent same.

Engine Company:

You will hear the glass break. Open the door, let the fire "light," bang your stream off the ceiling for a few seconds then hit the seat of the fire.

I Said nothing but "try it". If you like it, use it.

Oh, by the way, if you all have radios, the Engine guys don't have to listen for breaking glass