Hastings fire chiefs car catches fire

[norestriction 10]

Hi Mike,

I didn't consider my comment to be a criticism. When I was on the job we frequently would sit around the kitchen table after a working fire or an unusual emergency and do an informal critique. It was never used as a method of pointing fingers or attaching blame, rather it was used as a learning tool to help us to find the best methods for dealing with the myriad of situations that we as firefighters frequently encounter in our profession. Our goal was to always be prepared to do the best, most efficient job of protecting civilian lives and property while maintaining safe practices at the same time. IMHO the photos and videos of fires and emergencies that appear on this website can prove to be a valuable learning tool. Posters should show respect when making suggestions as well as make sure that you are suggesting procedures, equipment, etc. that is 'tried and true' as opposed to something you have dreamed up and never put to the test at the drill site. Other than that, I think we all need to admit that none of us know it all, always do everything right and can't benefit from a good suggestion now and then. If we want to continue to improve as fire rescue personnel, we'll have to be open to the real world experiences of Brothers who have been there and done that enough times that they have something to offer to the newer generation of folks on the job.

Stay safe ...

Amen

criticism is never a good thing and should be banned BUT a critique of a photo , video or any other fire related action should be welcomed with open arms whether in a round table discussion or on this site and to try and silence a critique only hurts the good of the fire service. Remember if you make fun of or speak with malice its NOT a critique and your better off just passing the topic by. I personally love knowledge and questions should be encouraged even if the question seems strange to us it may not be to the person asking and your answer may help that person.

I am not saying anyone is trying to silence the critiques but it sometimes has that feel. We are not 7 year olds that will run to mommy crying most of us are mature and welcome the help.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Holy Moly!!! Gotta agree with you on that one. 35+ posts over a routine car fire??? LOLZ

Routine? With a flaming gasoline leak, downhill, into the storm system. Okay Bull, whatever you say. LOL

Edit: Post #37

Edited August 23, 2011 by efdcapt115

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Another "routine" vehicle fire for you Bull in case ya forgot....

youtube credit: elag777

Holy Moly!!! Gotta agree with you on that one. 35+ posts over a routine car fire??? LOLZ

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

Routine? With a flaming gasoline leak, downhill, into the storm system. Okay Bull, whatever you say. LOL

Edit: Post #37

Forgive me Capt for not sharing your excitement over a vehicle fire. I just don't see what the fuss is about. I guess when you respond to several of these boxes a month the novelty tends to wear off.

[bad box 371]

Another "routine" vehicle fire for you Bull in case ya forgot....

youtube credit: elag777

Holy Moly!!! Gotta agree with you on that one. 35+ posts over a routine car fire??? LOLZ

Glad to see you back posting here Capt.. Clearly you are not continuing this discussion because you are 'excited' by vehicle fires, rather you [as do I] fully realize that when firefighters start to get comfortable [complacent] with so called 'routine' responses the potential for injuries, uncontrolled fire extension, etc. is increased.

[billfitz 109]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - move on !

[sympathomedic 383]

Is the Chief Sarfaty of Hastings any relation the the former Chief Sarfaty of Larchmont, circa 1983?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - move on !

Classic! Did you fall asleep at the desk and do a facial into your mug of java? LOL

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Glad to see you back posting here Capt.. Clearly you are not continuing this discussion because you are 'excited' by vehicle fires, rather you [as do I] fully realize that when firefighters start to get comfortable [complacent] with so called 'routine' responses the potential for injuries, uncontrolled fire extension, etc. is increased.

Thanks BB, glad to be back. Don't mind Bull (I think he has a good heart but a sense of hubris and bravado of a FNG), if he had any idea how many boxes you responded to in the boroughs in your career (as opposed to always telling us how many boxes HE responds to these days), maybe he'd pay attention to your posts a little more closely. Talk to you soon Brother.

[The Axe 8]

Enough of the Monday morning quarter backing!! The exposure was protected and the burning gas contained. The job was successfully handled by all that responded. End of story!!

[TCD0415 26]

Is the Chief Sarfaty of Hastings any relation the the former Chief Sarfaty of Larchmont, circa 1983?

Yep, Son of Ex. Chief Sarfaty - LFD. Like father, like son...

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Enough of the Monday morning quarter backing!! The exposure was protected and the burning gas contained. The job was successfully handled by all that responded. End of story!!

Excuse me Brother but please explain how the gasoline was "contained"? Were the storm drains diked and we just didn't read about it? Please remember, this discussion has evolved only so that the next fire crew that handles something like this might have another idea as to how to contain a hazardous material without a wash-down; last I remember that isn't done anymore. Once again, it is not intended to disrespect or demean the crews that were there who did their jobs. And it certainly isn't MMQB'ing, it's trying to teach and learn from an actual event that we are fortunate to view.

~Respectfully yours,

Captain George Glover (ret)

[x129K 1,393]

I finally watched the video - same situation we encountered this past spring with a Hionda...very stubborn fire once the gas tank let go...makes even seasoned vets look like amatuers...

So what would be the most effecient agent to apply to such a fire to extinguish it ASAP? Dry chem? Co2? CAFS (just for you Mark! LOL)

Most apparatus does not carry enough speedi dri to make a substantial dyke, nor would it be the best product to use for such a device..where would you get a load of sand at off hours and how long would it take? Would it be prudentto start shovelling sod from the homeowner's lawn if possible?

Edited August 24, 2011 by x129K

[x635 4,066]

Enough of the Monday morning quarter backing!! The exposure was protected and the burning gas contained. The job was successfully handled by all that responded. End of story!!

Nobody is "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" in this thread. Most of the discussion has been based on the scenario. HFD and YFD both did great jobs, and NO ONE is questiong that. Additionally, it's not your job to tell other members "end of story". If your bored with a thread, don't read it. If you have an issue with a thread or member, contact a staff member. It's our determination. This has been a constructive discussion, and nobody is criticizing the incident or speculating on the incident itself. People need to stop criticizing this forum and discussions, this is, for the most part, an excellent example of two threads this week that EMTBravo is all about.

With that said........

Car fires aren't as simple as they used to be. With a variety of cars out there using a variety of fuel or electricity to propel them, along with safety features that can become dangerous when on fire, puts a whole new spin on car fires.

Additionally, here in Central Texas, we are experiencing a major heat wave, with temps above 100 for over 70 days now, and a exceptional drought that has left everything bone dry-including large fields and heavy brush. A simple car fire here can cause massive damage to the surrounding area....and I'm talking in square miles in some cases. So it needs to be extinguished quickly. Some of the hills out here make Yonkers look flat, so containing any fuel runoff is critical in those areas.

Remember, most gasoline brands contain about 5-10% ethanol in their regular fuel, if not more. Whereas gas floats to the surface, it is eventually extinguished by water. Sometimes,depending on the weather, spilled gasoline will evaporate quickly. Ethanol continues to burn, because it mixes with water.

E85, which is 85% ethanol, and can be seen by the "Flex Fuel" label on most vehicles, presents a whole new problem, making car fires much more hazardous.

Ethanol also doesn't always produce visible smoke or sometimes flame, so it could be burning without you knowing.

To effectively extinguish an ethanol fire, you need an alcohol resistant foam.

Just something to look out for at a stubborn car fire.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Would it be prudentto start shovelling sod from the homeowner's lawn if possible?

IMHO dirt would do in lieu of other absorbent materials. Creating the dike, letting the gasoline pool and simultaneously lathering a foam blanket to keep the pool from igniting would be the most environmentally friendly way of tackling it.

After my job had a similar situation, like Bad Box pointed out, we sat around afterward and critiqued what we could have done better with our call; because we lost who knows how much product into the driveway drainage, which in turn emptied out into a small creek behind the structure.

Good question 129!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Car fires aren't as simple as they used to be. With a variety of cars out there using a variety of fuel or electricity to propel them, along with safety features that can become dangerous when on fire, puts a whole new spin on car fires.

Remember, most gasoline brands contain about 5-10% ethanol in their regular fuel, if not more. Whereas gas floats to the surface, it is eventually extinguished by water. Sometimes,depending on the weather, spilled gasoline will evaporate quickly. Ethanol continues to burn, because it mixes with water.

E85, which is 85% ethanol, and can be seen by the "Flex Fuel" label on most vehicles, presents a whole new problem, making car fires much more hazardous.

Ethanol also doesn't always produce visible smoke or sometimes flame, so it could be burning without you knowing.

To effectively extinguish an ethanol fire, you need an alcohol resistant foam.

Just something to look out for at a stubborn car fire.

Really nice post. Out of reps for the day, sorry Seth.

[x129K 1,393]

Really nice post. Out of reps for the day, sorry Seth.

Seth needs to up the rep allotment! LOL

And of course, once winter hits and the ground freezes, forget about shovelling sod..

[efdcapt115 1,511]

And of course, once winter hits and the ground freezes, forget about shovelling sod..

Very good point. Now you gave me something to think about for a while.....

[x129K 1,393]

Very good point. Now you gave me something to think about for a while.....

Probably not a problem where you call home, huh?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Probably not a problem where you call home, huh?

Now I owe YOU two rep points! lol

[norestriction 10]

Capt Glover

I dont know you from a whole in the wall but I must say you sound like the voice of reason and I appreciate you taking the time in spite of some of the silly remarks to CRITIQUE the video so those of us who wish to learn do learn from your expertise.

I'm 40 years old with 14 years of volunteering and and I cant stand people who "know it all" and arent willing to listen.

Thank You Capt

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Capt Glover

I dont know you from a whole in the wall but I must say you sound like the voice of reason and I appreciate you taking the time in spite of some of the silly remarks to CRITIQUE the video so those of us who wish to learn do learn from your expertise.

I'm 40 years old with 14 years of volunteering and and I cant stand people who "know it all" and arent willing to listen.

Thank You Capt

Hello,

Thank you for your kind remarks. I've been away from the forum for some time now, but am enjoying very much being back. I'm blessed to know some very smart people in the fire service, both active and retired. Some fairly famous (within the business at least), most are firefighters/officers who give 110% doing the job and care greatly for people. I've always found the ones I become fondest of, are the ones who freely admit that their entire careers are learning experiences. These gentlemen/ladies have taught me so much; to lose the ego and always remember NOBODY in this business knows everything. Some of us become more humble as the years go by, some of us become more hardened, cynical, bitter, paranoid, etc. Some learn, some never do. Sounds like you're a guy who yearns to learn. NOBODY should ever try to dissuade you, me or anyone else from that.

~Wish you the best, and please stay safe.

[M' Ave 1,466]

lose the ego and always remember NOBODY in this business knows everything.

Come on Capt.....I thought you were around a while! Some guys on this job definitely know everything. Ask'em, they'll tell you! LOL, anyway...this certainly was, "just a car fire", but that doesn't mean that there were a few curveballs involved. Multiple agencies, terrain gradient, gasoline and exposure to name a few. Thanks to the miracle of You Tube (for better or worse) we are given the opportunity to critique. Nothing wrong with kicking tactics around and looking at what was right and what was wrong. My company covers an area that is plagued by car fires. Still, something is different each time and we get them a lot. I don't always wear my mask. Maybe I should. I've been caught not paying attention and opening the line facing the building, rather than the street. Dumb sh!t happens....good things too. It's nice to talk it out. I definitely was caught wondering why there were, at times, 5 hand lines putting water on a vehicle fire. Maybe there was an explanation, what do I know? I wasn't there, but we can all ask questions and read answers from those in the know.

[goon16 155]

I asked the same thing about the 5 l/s/o and never was answered. I just got hammered about along why some brothers weren't wearing the masks...its alright I can take it..they still burn cars in the south bx

if you dont ask questions....how will you continue to learn

[x635 4,066]

I asked the same thing about the 5 l/s/o and never was answered. I just got hammered about along why some brothers weren't wearing the masks...its alright I can take it..they still burn cars in the south bx

I repeat:

We could pick this apart forever. Now that everyone has camera phones and cameras that take videos, we're always under the gun for criticism and everyone thinks that they are an expert. This is why everyone complains about this forum. A lot of the time, thinly veiled criticism is posed as a question.

If someone on scene that is an officer wants to come on here and comment or give insight and maybe answer questions, fine. I'd love to see that. But they are under no obligation to answer to their tatics here, other then if they wannt to use this to enhance firefighter safety. So, relax on the critcism. I'm pretty sure this is not the first car fire these guys have put out, and I'm sure they can use the video to learn.

Again, this is what give the forum a bad name. I think a video like this is a great learning tool, but these types of threads actually make people not want to share their experiences. Everyone wants to criticize other departments, but when it comes to their own department or themselves...

I think this is an excellent video to learn from. But I'm sure Hastings and Yonkers wouldn't appreciate speculation. Let's continue this as a discussion of tatics, and not a "why" thread.

[goon16 155]

There was no critcism I was just simply asking why there were 5 l/s/o so if you think this is critcism you haven't spent enough time in the kitchen its part of the job... And again I repeat myself how can you learn if you don't ask questions unless youre an ike ( I Know Everything)

And if this isn't a "why" thread ill restate the question....howcome 5 l/s/o on this car fire

[x635 4,066]

There was no critcism I was just simply asking why there were 5 l/s/o so if you think this is critcism you haven't spent enough time in the kitchen its part of the job... And again I repeat myself how can you learn if you don't ask questions unless youre an ike ( I Know Everything)

And if this isn't a "why" thread ill restate the question....howcome 5 l/s/o on this car fire

I really, really don't care about what happens at the "kitchen table". That's an old school mentality that's toxic to the fire service. I'd rather be on a run or in a classroom. But that's irrelvant to this discussion. The staff and I decide what is criticism and what isn't.

Any more questions regarding moderation or operations of this thread or site please contact me....please don't cause this positive thread to sprial downward. So far, no one has stopped by this thread to give us the rundown and answer questions.If you want the factual information of why their was 5 L/S/O I can provide you with contact information to the IC.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I really, really don't care about what happens at the "kitchen table". That's an old school mentality that's toxic to the fire service. I'd rather be on a run or in a classroom. But that's irrelvant to this discussion. The staff and I decide what is criticism and what isn't.

Discussing the events of a recent call, talking about ways which could of made the run smother or safer, opening other people’s ( or my ) eyes to other opinions, thinking outside the box and looking at it from another stand point is one of the things I believe have helped me and the guys from WECO, that I have worked with for years…

How is this toxic ??? what I believe, what is really toxic is the guy who believes “ what I do is right and that’s that !! “ and can not take criticism from other’s who may have done it differently…I have found the guys with an OPEN MIND, are the best ones to work with, and together a team can excel.

One of the major problems which can come from this, is just how someone brings it up, if it is NOT broadcasted properly, it will come across as an insult, and part of being an adult, is that we learn to listen to others and respect others feelings…. I am not 100 % sure, but I believe this is what JFlynn always means when he says QTIP… and I have started to agree with this…. We need to stop being babies and man up…. ( no disrespect to the ladies out there … )

[Dinosaur 844]

I just have one question that the video just didn't answer for me.

Why did the brothers stand at the foot of the driveway with the flaming fuel running toward them? Was there terrain or other obstruction that would have prevented them from moving out of the way of that hazard?

From the video, and it may be just the camera angle, it looked like the fire rolled right down the hill to the nozzleman.

[yfd888 22]

Yonkers was probably dispatched due to a 911 call...just guessing. It came through Yonkers dispatch. That road is a broken street that runs into Yonkers, to the east side of the Saw Mill Pkwy. As for the fire, I don't believe the tank had released prior to Hastings units arriving on scene so probably why no foam was flowing earlier on. Once it did start to let go, a dike was made with speedy dry downhill on the road, but did not hold up due to the flow of water. I think the main concern was on exposure and the car fire itself. Also, just my thoughts, but the road was also on a decent grade and building a bigger dike likely would have just led the gas to the opposite side of the road once filled with water, into YFD rigs. Before anyone criticizes rig placement...it was a hill. Once YFD got there there was no room to park uphill, so rigs were spotted opposite the trail of water at a good distance away from the main fire. A dry chemical extinguisher was used earlier on...darkened it down, but the vehicle tires had blown and the vehicle was sitting very low. Some unreached spots of fire just reignited the gas. Once foam was put into operation it was not doing much since the driveway slope was too severe for foam to maintain a blanket, and again, very difficult to get sufficient foam up to the tank due to the tires being out. The vehicle had a full 40 gallon tank from what I was told, so it leaked for a while. Both departments worked well together and I'm sure Hastings would have stuck around if roles were reversed. It was quite obvious that it was a stubborn fire. Thanks for the cookies Hastings!

Edited August 26, 2011 by yfd888