Aerial Waterway Nozzles?

[x129K 1,393]

Do you prefer stacked smoothbore tips or adjustable on your aerial waterways?

Why?

Doing research. Thanks.

Attached is our current nozzle of choice, as spec'ed. Although, i THINK, I would prefer stacked tips myself...

[Newburgher 241]

In our department, we use stacked tips on our aerials. They are kept with the 1 and 1/2 inch as the smallest. Penetration and ease of aiming through a window seem to be the benefits. We carry the adjustable fog nozzles that came with the rigs in a compartment, in case they are needed for exposure protection. Our engines use stacked tips as well, and are kept with 1 and 3/8 as the smallest. We don't have any tower ladders in the city.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Our tower ladder has one of each. The fog/adjustable is set up with electronic controls to allow one man operation from the turntable (with limited manpower). The other has stacked tips, but I cannot recall the sizes from memory. That one must be operated from the bucket.

[frenchie477 2]

Stacked tips all the way. I can't recall sizes but we do keep the adjustable on the truck as well. Can be moved from the tip or the turntable.

[FFEMT150 214]

Our tower ladder has one of each. The fog/adjustable is set up with electronic controls to allow one man operation from the turntable (with limited manpower). The other has stacked tips, but I cannot recall the sizes from memory. That one must be operated from the bucket.

Same in my Dept. Always thought smooth bore were the way to go. More volume.

[IzzyEng4 427]

At work we have dual monitors on our TL. We keep the adjustable open for use as we can control the monitor from the pedal-stool. The stacked tips are kept closed and used when we have someone in the bucket.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our department has used smoothbores for all master streams for quite a while. The basic reason is that when we go to the large streams we anticipate a heavy volume of fire with significant heat and a need for the nozzle to be typically further away from the seat. Fog streams, even in the most compact straight settings, contain far more surface area for the heat to convert the water to steam carrying it up and away. By using the solid stream we try and maximize the amount of water that leaves the nozzle also hits the fire. Larger drops evaporate slower and are less affected by thermal columns and wind. We also carry fog tips for all master streams for vapor cloud mitigation and for suppressing fire brands, though I've yet to see the latter done in last 16 years.

[x129K 1,393]

So it appears, as I suspected, that for TRUE aggressive firefighting tactics, stacked tips are the way to go.

I wonder why so many departments, mine included, opted for the adjustable nozzles then?

NOT a bash or condemning their choice, just honest intrigue...I would think we would want the most effective streams possible.

[bad box 371]

So it appears, as I suspected, that for TRUE aggressive firefighting tactics, stacked tips are the way to go.

I wonder why so many departments, mine included, opted for the adjustable nozzles then?

NOT a bash or condemning their choice, just honest intrigue...I would think we would want the most effective streams possible.

After having spent 21 years as a career firefighter, 17 years as a volunteer firefighter (8 of those years in chief's ranks) and several years in fire equipment sales I would have to say that it's due to misinformation (both from fire service personnel who never did real life field testing of smooth-bore vs. fog nozzles as well as from salesmen with no firefighting background), stubborn chief's who refuse to admit that they may be wrong and the fact that many in today's fire service don't seem to understand that in order to control a heavy volume of fire we must overwhelm it with a large volume of water that will penetrate to the seat of the fire. As was pointed out by antiquefirelt, if you view a photo of a stream from a stacked tip equipped master stream operating side by side with a fog tip equipped master stream both being directed into a heavy volume of fire you will notice that the stacked tip stream is penetrating the fire while the straight stream from the fog tip appears to be making a 90 degree turn away from the fire.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Stacked for more volume. Master streams need high volume water flow.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I will add two items that seem to almost be becoming FS myths.

#1: Smoothbores flow more water. Inaccurate. You can get just as much flow from a fog nozzle. Trust me, the manufactures make them and sell them everyday at a significant price.

#2: Smooothbores will reduce the reaction force on the aerial. Again, inaccurate. The reaction force is, not as some would report, less on a smoothbore than a fog. At 100 gpm the two nozzle types exhibit (mathmatically) reaction force within 3 lbs or each other. Part of this is due to the higher nozzle pressure required for SB master streams than handline nozzles (80 psi vs. 50).

I have seen one pretty good argument about why some FD's use fog nozzles on their TL's and deck pipes, relative to the types of buildings they're fighting fires in and using the fog guns as exposure protection. One must be careful with a smoothbore not to peel siding away, while the fog can easily be adjusted to ensure this doesn't happen, while still flowing a higher volume. In this case, the more effective use of the heat absorbing properties of water to keep the exposure cool may be readily realized with the fog? As I have no true experience utilizing our master streams with fogs, I have no actual frame of reference, but theoretically this has merit, and in some well respected FD's this has been SOP for some time. So if you're first due area has a boatload of tightly packed frame buildings you might consider which way is more important on arrival: exposure protection or boring into the seat of a fire in a defensive mode?

Edited August 18, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[lad45der 78]

Stacked Tips SHOULD be the Prefered method of extinguishing a large volume of Fire. IT'S MY OPINION that I belive the problem of Smoothbore vs Fog streams starts in the Firehouse from the top of the food chain. Some of.. Not all Senior Firefighters and Chief officers that were crawling down hallways of the past say 30 years ago (cir 1981) have not yet FULLY UNDERSTOOD the Fire Today is not the same Fire they fought "back in the day". Today were fighting Fires in Several types of Construction that are not able to withstand a fire. Buildings basically are built on a Concrete Footing and then Doused in Gasoline (Synthetics)

Fighting Fires was never Rocket Science but we do have to change with the times.

Remember "KISS"... Keep it Simple Stupid

We could debate this all day. The Leadership has to FULLY UNDERSTAND the Fire behavior changes.

Some examples of light reading among MANY others would come from the Following:

Brannigan Building Construction.

ANY of the Reading's from the "Great" Late Andrew Fredericks (RIP)

How to read Smoke by Dave Dobson (great seminar).... fund raiser idea

FDNY Lt.Ray McCormack.

FDNY Lt.Timm Klett.

Lt.Chip Chapman Milford CT FD.

Wind Driven 7 story Building Experiments Fire Study by NIST.

Just some of these readings alone should (I hope) open up some eyes.

Back to those Masterstream nozzles.

The Tip sizes starting from the largest size to the smallest are as follows. 2inch, 1-3/4inches 1-1/2inches 1-3/8inches.

I see no reason but to use only the 2inch or the 1-3/4inch MAYBE the 1-1/2 size.

I hear it sometimes and it drives me nuts "We use the smaller tip size to get the reach of the stream??"

Move the Master Stream device closer to the Fire (Respect your Collapse zones). Dont use a smaller tip on the nozzle your waisting precious time..Your making the Large GPM Master Stream a Useless low GPM Handline on a Million dollar Ladder truck.

Another "Myph".. We need the Fog Nozzle for Exposure Protection by forming a Water curtain???.

Put the BIG GPM on the Fire FAST as possible and you wont have Exposures.

Look at Buff Pictures of the past ..What do you see 15 Handlines flowing low GPM results. Use bigger lines with matching Tips and you will use less hose. Great idea for the up and coming 3 man Firefighting team in a Chevy Tahoe idea coming out of Townhall.

[sqd47bfd 20]

I see no reason but to use only the 2inch or the 1-3/4inch MAYBE the 1-1/2 size.

I hear it sometimes and it drives me nuts "We use the smaller tip size to get the reach of the stream??"

Move the Master Stream device closer to the Fire (Respect your Collapse zones). Dont use a smaller tip on the nozzle your waisting precious time..Your making the Large GPM Master Stream a Useless low GPM Handline on a Million dollar Ladder truck.

Mark,

I do recall one exception to your thinking, I don't have the book right in front of me, but I do beleive John Norman promotes the use of the smallest tip when using a tower ladder master stream in the "taxpayer" mode, this gives the stream the ability to tear into the building as you try to expose fire in void spaces hydraulically.

Not to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I keep thinking this would have been a help at 947 Hope Street.

[lad45der 78]

Mark,

I do recall one exception to your thinking, I don't have the book right in front of me, but I do beleive John Norman promotes the use of the smallest tip when using a tower ladder master stream in the "taxpayer" mode, this gives the stream the ability to tear into the building as you try to expose fire in void spaces hydraulically.

Not to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I keep thinking this would have been a help at 947 Hope Street.

Hello Pat: In the Current Third edition of Norman's Handbook of Tactics on page 320 Store Fires. The Chief states "The main body of fire must be may be attacked with a Pre connected deck gun or another master stream type.

A heavy body of fire in a store can require 800-900GPM to darken it down. Placing the tower ladder bucket down at the sidewalk, directly in front of the store window, you put in place the most highly mobile 1,000GPM plus master stream avaible. Goes on to say that if the 2 inch tip at more than 100PSI can't open ceilings than you wont be able to do it with hooks eithier.

[x129K 1,393]

Lad45der....wow. THANK YOU for that awesome post. Excellent info!

[sqd47bfd 20]

I know I read somewhere that it was recommended to use a smaller nozzle on the stacked tip for taxpayer fires. If it wasn't in the Norman book it may have been in the FDNY operating manual for tower ladders that we happen to have a copy of at Belltown.

[lad45der 78]

I know I read somewhere that it was recommended to use a smaller nozzle on the stacked tip for taxpayer fires. If it wasn't in the Norman book it may have been in the FDNY operating manual for tower ladders that we happen to have a copy of at Belltown.

That would be Firefighting Procedures and Taxpayer Fires Section 8.1 General 8.1.20. Regarding Storefront operations.

Ladder Co Operations Stream Operations 6.2.6 page 32 Minimum size 1-1/2" Tip shall be used.

Positioning Bucket 6.3.3 page 33

Love... Rainman

Edited August 19, 2011 by lad45der

[sqd47bfd 20]

When did you get so smart?

[Newburgher 241]

Stacked Tips SHOULD be the Prefered method of extinguishing a large volume of Fire. IT'S MY OPINION that I belive the problem of Smoothbore vs Fog streams starts in the Firehouse from the top of the food chain. Some of.. Not all Senior Firefighters and Chief officers that were crawling down hallways of the past say 30 years ago (cir 1981) have not yet FULLY UNDERSTOOD the Fire Today is not the same Fire they fought "back in the day". Today were fighting Fires in Several types of Construction that are not able to withstand a fire. Buildings basically are built on a Concrete Footing and then Doused in Gasoline (Synthetics)

Fighting Fires was never Rocket Science but we do have to change with the times.

Remember "KISS"... Keep it Simple Stupid

We could debate this all day. The Leadership has to FULLY UNDERSTAND the Fire behavior changes.

Some examples of light reading among MANY others would come from the Following:

Brannigan Building Construction.

ANY of the Reading's from the "Great" Late Andrew Fredericks (RIP)

How to read Smoke by Dave Dobson (great seminar).... fund raiser idea

FDNY Lt.Ray McCormack.

FDNY Lt.Timm Klett.

Lt.Chip Chapman Milford CT FD.

Wind Driven 7 story Building Experiments Fire Study by NIST.

Just some of these readings alone should (I hope) open up some eyes.

Back to those Masterstream nozzles.

The Tip sizes starting from the largest size to the smallest are as follows. 2inch, 1-3/4inches 1-1/2inches 1-3/8inches.

I see no reason but to use only the 2inch or the 1-3/4inch MAYBE the 1-1/2 size.

I hear it sometimes and it drives me nuts "We use the smaller tip size to get the reach of the stream??"

Move the Master Stream device closer to the Fire (Respect your Collapse zones). Dont use a smaller tip on the nozzle your waisting precious time..Your making the Large GPM Master Stream a Useless low GPM Handline on a Million dollar Ladder truck.

Another "Myph".. We need the Fog Nozzle for Exposure Protection by forming a Water curtain???.

Put the BIG GPM on the Fire FAST as possible and you wont have Exposures.

Look at Buff Pictures of the past ..What do you see 15 Handlines flowing low GPM results. Use bigger lines with matching Tips and you will use less hose. Great idea for the up and coming 3 man Firefighting team in a Chevy Tahoe idea coming out of Townhall.

I can tell you that we use the 1 1/2 on our aerials, because we don't have million dollar ladder trucks and towers with pumps. Our ladder pipes are fed from substandard water systems to an engine, through 2 1/2 hose into the ladder. We keep the size on there because we can flow that gpm quickly. We have 3- 3 man companies on duty. Sometimes, there are exposures before you get there. Our response time is 3 minutes or less, depending on whether the initial call was a pull box or phone call, so "putting BIG GPM on the fire FAST as possible and you won't have exposures" is not always true.

Using a fog nozzle to make a water curtain, is also not very effective. I believe the term water curtain is what was the method used in the old days of spraying water between the fire and the exposure. If the water is not being sprayed on the exposure, it will not stop the radiant heat. The way I was taught, exposure protection is wetting down the exposure, keeping it cool. We have found this to be about the only thing fog nozzles are good for.

Something else that isn't very effective, is spraying water down from a ladder pipe onto a perfectly good roof. Roofs repell water from a nozzle, just as well as rain. The best way to apply the water, is through windows and openings into the heat, bouncing the stream, as best as possible, off the room interiors, drowning as much of the burning areas as you can. Again, it works for us, that's how we do it. I'm sure everyone who is on here has a different way that works in their towns and cities.

[BillFdLt11 0]

Have stressed the same arguments for a long time, But it seems some fire service instuctors are still using the argument that the FOG is good for protection against rollover and flashover (sigh). But in training and real fires my firefighters are seeing the benefit and the smoothbore is pulled 99% of the time for structure fires.As I say it is just another tool in the engine companies toolbox. Stay safe

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Don't know where you are but I'm glad no instructor I've taught with has ever said that although sadly I've read it in other places. I'm a SB guy all around and for much of the same reasons given plus on a good windy day a combo nozzle can have a significant amount of it volume blown away. Remember also 350 gpm is the magic number anything less than 1 1/4" isn't going to get you that.

[sqd47bfd 20]

What makes 350 gpm the magic number?

Magic number for what?

Is there a special critical fire flow equation for which the answer is always 350?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What makes 350 gpm the magic number?

Magic number for what?

Is there a special critical fire flow equation for which the answer is always 350?

No special equation. But for anything to be considered a master stream it needs to deliver 350 GPM or greater by definition.