Should Firefighters Have College Degrees?

[x635 4,066]

In an age where having a Bachelor's degree is becoming as common as a high school diploma, and the economic climate giving a greater pool to choose from, should a college degree, at least an Associate's be required?<BR><BR>On the flip side, college isn't for everyone. We're losing a lot of skilled blue collar workers because of colleges.

[FF1 172]

In an age where having a Bachelor's degree is becoming as common as a high school diploma, and the economic climate giving a greater pool to choose from, should a college degree, at least an Associate's be required?

On the flip side, college isn't for everyone. We're losing a lot of skilled blue collar workers because of colleges.

I am a person with a college diploma and am currently pursuing a fire career and I can honestly say that my college degree is only worth the paper that its printed on. Too many people stress college for everything now-a-days and dont realize that it may not be for everyone.

I got a degree because i felt that it was what was expected of me and honestly, I didn't learn much at all. All of my skills in the business world were taught to me at my current job and were learned on the fly. Very rarely, if ever, do I come across an obsticle in my job and revert back to my schooling.

With that said, I do feel that certain fields, such as Medical, Teaching, and Engineering are very technical and do rely heavily on schooling, but others, such as Business, Trades(electrical, construction, plumbing, ect) and Emergency Services are all about the kind of person you are by nature and on the job trainning and experiance.

Also, Common Sense, a vital skill that many people are lacking, cannot be taught at any college or trade school.

This is only one person's opinion, I apologize if I offended anyone.

Edited August 1, 2011 by FF1

[LTNRFD 266]

I am a person with a college diploma and am currently pursuing a fire career and I can honestly say that my college degree is only worth the paper that its printed on. Too many people stress college for everything now-a-days and dont realize that it may not be for everyone.

I got a degree because i felt that it was what was expected of me and honestly, I didn't learn much at all. All of my skills in the business world were taught to me at my current job and were learned on the fly. Very rarely, if ever, do I come across an obsticle in my job and revert back to my schooling.

With that said, I do feel that certain fields, such as Medical, Teaching, and Engineering are very technical and do rely heavily on schooling, but others, such as Business, Trades(electrical, construction, plumbing, ect) and Emergency Services are all about the kind of person you are by nature and on the job trainning and experiance.

Also, Common Sense, a vital skill that many people are lacking, cannot be taught at any college or trade school.

This is only one person's opinion, I apologize if I offended anyone.

I will agree with your assessment to a certain degree. In most cases you don't need a college degree to be a firefighter. However there is a certain amount of maturing that you obtain in your years at college. The ability to organize, prioritize, execute and summarize is honed during your college studies. I have seen first hand that in my career, it was those who attended some form of post high school training did better on the promotional exams. I also saw a probie that who barley made it out of high school not able to understand the 24 hour clock.

When I was in high school I considered going into the F.B.I. I was told that the F.B.I. wouldn't consider any applicant unless that person had a 4 year college degree. I was told it could be for basket weaving (I was in HS in the early 70's). The reason was that they want the applicant to have that 4 years of the maturing process.

The bottom line is in my experience those who had at least a 2 year associates degree or better, advanced quicker and higher than those who didn't.

[FF1 172]

I will agree with your assessment to a certain degree. In most cases you don't need a college degree to be a firefighter. However there is a certain amount of maturing that you obtain in your years at college. The ability to organize, prioritize, execute and summarize is honed during your college studies. I have seen first hand that in my career, it was those who attended some form of post high school training did better on the promotional exams. I also saw a probie that who barley made it out of high school not able to understand the 24 hour clock.

When I was in high school I considered going into the F.B.I. I was told that the F.B.I. wouldn't consider any applicant unless that person had a 4 year college degree. I was told it could be for basket weaving (I was in HS in the early 70's). The reason was that they want the applicant to have that 4 years of the maturing process.

The bottom line is in my experience those who had at least a 2 year associates degree or better, advanced quicker and higher than those who didn't.

Agreed. The most that I took out of my schooling was communication skills with others and time management.

[INIT915 1,119]

I am a person with a college diploma and am currently pursuing a fire career and I can honestly say that my college degree is only worth the paper that its printed on. Too many people stress college for everything now-a-days and dont realize that it may not be for everyone.

I got a degree because i felt that it was what was expected of me and honestly, I didn't learn much at all. All of my skills in the business world were taught to me at my current job and were learned on the fly. Very rarely, if ever, do I come across an obsticle in my job and revert back to my schooling.

With that said, I do feel that certain fields, such as Medical, Teaching, and Engineering are very technical and do rely heavily on schooling, but others, such as Business, Trades(electrical, construction, plumbing, ect) and Emergency Services are all about the kind of person you are by nature and on the job trainning and experiance.

Also, Common Sense, a vital skill that many people are lacking, cannot be taught at any college or trade school.

This is only one person's opinion, I apologize if I offended anyone.

An important caveat is, as you point out, your still pursuing a fire career. Many, many people pursue fire and law enforcement careers, without ever achieving their goal. There are always going to be more applicants then vacancies. Having a solid education, backed with a college degree, is not a bad "back-up" plan, in the event that for one reason or another, your not able to live out your dream of ES.

[FF1 172]

An important caveat is, as you point out, your still pursuing a fire career. Many, many people pursue fire and law enforcement careers, without ever achieving their goal. There are always going to be more applicants then vacancies. Having a solid education, backed with a college degree, is not a bad "back-up" plan, in the event that for one reason or another, your not able to live out your dream of ES.

I see your point, but I also think that it depends on the career path you choose. In order to be a doctor, an education is a must, but in order to be a sucessful businessman or entrepreneur, not so much. I have found that real world experiance is critical. You can't teach drive and determination.

Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Jobs of Apple and Richard Branssen of Virgin Records were all college dropouts.

[INIT915 1,119]

I see your point, but I also think that it depends on the career path you choose. In order to be a doctor, an education is a must, but in order to be a sucessful businessman or entrepreneur, not so much. I have found that real world experiance is critical. You can't teach drive and determination.

Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Jobs of Apple and Richard Branssen of Virgin Records were all college dropouts.

Yes, great point. Those three people are truly representative and average examples.

[LTNRFD 266]

Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Jobs of Apple and Richard Branssen of Virgin Records were all college dropouts.

And look how they turned out....Gates can't manage his money....he keeps giving away millions and millions to charity after charity. Jobs is another one who just gives money away. Branssen has never matured. He is always buying new toys and running all over the world on a new adventure. Is that what you want ??? Or a more stable life style that the more mature well refined person lives????

[INIT915 1,119]

And look how they turned out....Gates can't manage his money....he keeps giving away millions and millions to charity after charity. Jobs is another one who just gives money away. Branssen has never matured. He is always buying new toys and running all over the world on a new adventure. Is that what you want ??? Or a more stable life style that the more mature well refined person lives????

[FF1 172]

And look how they turned out....Gates can't manage his money....he keeps giving away millions and millions to charity after charity. Jobs is another one who just gives money away. Branssen has never matured. He is always buying new toys and running all over the world on a new adventure. Is that what you want ??? Or a more stable life style that the more mature well refined person lives????

The point that I was trying to make is that college isn't everything. I am a believer that you create your own luck and any person and accomplish anything they want, as long as they keep their eye on the prize and strve toward that goal every day.

I'm not suggesting these men should life coaches for anyone. I am backing up my statment with examples. They were simply examples of men without college who succeeded.

I'm sorry. There is no need for arrogence.

[INIT915 1,119]

The point that I was trying to make is that college isn't everything. I am a believer that you create your own luck and any person and accomplish anything they want, as long as they keep their eye on the prize and strve toward that goal every day.

I'm not suggesting these men should life coaches for anyone. I am backing up my statment with examples. They were simply examples of men without college who succeeded.

I'm sorry. There is no need for arrogence.

It's not arrogance, it's sarcasm. Let me ask this hypothetical question. If you drop out of college, do you think it more likely you end up in the ranks of the Gates/Jobs/Branson's of the world, or some nameless guy who we'll never even knew existed?

I equate that to ignoring opportunities to save for retirement because you know one of these days, you'll have the winning Mega-Millions ticket!

[FF1 172]

It's not arrogance, it's sarcasm. Let me ask this hypothetical question. If you drop out of college, do you think it more likely you end up in the ranks of the Gates/Jobs/Branson's of the world, or some nameless guy who we'll never even knew existed?

I equate that to ignoring opportunities to save for retirement because you know one of these days, you'll have the winning Mega-Millions ticket!

Maybe you are having a bad day, or maybe it makes you feel better about yourself to insult others, whatever the case may be, you have taken my comments out of context. I agree that you are better positioned for success with a degree. The point that I was trying to make is that college isnt the be all end all of success in life and I used an example of people who succeeded without it.

Is it likly to get filthy rich without college? Not at all. Is is possible? Yes.

I think drive and determination are two things that cannot be taught and come from within.

[Danger 160]

It's not arrogance, it's sarcasm. Let me ask this hypothetical question. If you drop out of college, do you think it more likely you end up in the ranks of the Gates/Jobs/Branson's of the world, or some nameless guy who we'll never even knew existed?

I equate that to ignoring opportunities to save for retirement because you know one of these days, you'll have the winning Mega-Millions ticket!

Classy reply. My friends who partied the four years I dug ditches and did inter-facility transports are in $100,000 debt and using their History and Communications degrees to work at the mall and wait tables while I'm making a good living, establishing a retirement and looking at houses. Nothing is a definite and you get out of life what you put in to it.

[FF1 172]

Classy reply. My friends who partied the four years I dug ditches and did inter-facility transports are in $100,000 debt and using their History and Communications degrees to work at the mall and wait tables while I'm making a good living, establishing a retirement and looking at houses. Nothing is a definite and you get out of life what you put in to it.

Thats the exact point I was trying to make.

[INIT915 1,119]

Maybe you are having a bad day, or maybe it makes you feel better about yourself to insult others, whatever the case may be, you have taken my comments out of context. I agree that you are better positioned for success with a degree. The point that I was trying to make is that college isnt the be all end all of success in life and I used an example of people who succeeded without it.

Is it likly to get filthy rich without college? Not at all. Is is possible? Yes.

I think drive and determination are two things that cannot be taught and come from within.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. If you perceive being insulted or attacked during the course of an otherwise benign discussion and debate, I don't know how else to handle it other than ignoring you. If you don't want to engage in banter in these forums, why post here to begin with?

[FF1 172]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. If you perceive being insulted or attacked during the course of an otherwise benign discussion and debate, I don't know how else to handle it other than ignoring you. If you don't want to engage in banter in these forums, why post here to begin with?

OK... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. No harm no foul. I believe we both misunderstood each other.

[INIT915 1,119]

Classy reply. My friends who partied the four years I dug ditches and did inter-facility transports are in $100,000 debt and using their History and Communications degrees to work at the mall and wait tables while I'm making a good living, establishing a retirement and looking at houses. Nothing is a definite and you get out of life what you put in to it.

Well, in that respect, college is no different than a lot of aspects in life! I still believe education offers more positives than negatives, but your free to disagree.

[mstrang1 213]

In addition to what others have said about promotional exams, etc., college prepares you for a second career, either concurrent or post fd/pd career. What happens if, God forbid, 4 years into your career you must retire on a disability? Sit around all day? Or be prepared to find another job? I just heard on the radio yesterday that prospective employers do not want people that are not currently employed, no matter the experience. So employers are not hiring people with experience in the field already, how would you fare in the job market? A degree is something at least.

If you do 20 years as a cop and got hired at 22, that means you are retired at 42. What will you do the rest of your life, live off of a pension? Doubt it...

Whether you have a degree in fire science or criminal justice or basket weaving, the degree is most certainly worth more than the paper it is printed on. I get paid a (slightly) higher rate with the FD, due to having a bachelors degree. I imagine other jobs have similar wage scales. As much as I thought college was a waste of time while I was there, the further away from it I get, the more I realize how important it was. Not just from a communication and time management perspective, but from a general knowledge standpoint. While in college, I was required to take public speaking, philosophy, sociology, psychology, history and literature classes. All of these classes help create (hopefully) a well rounded individual. From job interviews to everyday work activities, these core skills come in handy.

[LTNRFD 266]

The point that I was trying to make is that college isn't everything. I am a believer that you create your own luck and any person and accomplish anything they want, as long as they keep their eye on the prize and strve toward that goal every day.

I'm not suggesting these men should life coaches for anyone. I am backing up my statment with examples. They were simply examples of men without college who succeeded.

I'm sorry. There is no need for arrogence.

As I stated in my earlier post, I agree with you to a point. I did say that in my experience those who went to post H.S. training, did better on advancement. I personally ranked in the top 5 on the LT list and then on the Capt. list. I earned a BBA and those ahead of me on the lists all had either 2 or 4 year degrees.

I was not being arrogant, I was sarcastic. If you can't see the sarcasm in my post about Gates, Jobs and Brannsen I think you might not see the humor that is rampant in the fire houses. Good luck IF you get on the job. It will be interesting.

The time now is 1648 hrs.

[AJU 39]

The most valuable part of getting a college degree has almost nothing to do with what is studied. It's about learning HOW to learn. These are valuable skills that can be applied to the fire service, and they can put someone with a college degree well ahead of those without.

Sure, drive and determination are important in any industry, but without certain skills all that drive and determination will lead to simply spinning your wheels. Some people acquire skills in unconventional ways, but when you look at groups of people you have to look at patterns of behavior and the correlations that can be used to draw conclusions about the likelyhood of causality. You can't make a rule out of the exceptions (and there always will be exceptions). This is like the thread about teen drivers where the teens all thought the rules should be changed because they themselves were capable.

I think a college education also increases the ability of the firefighter to operate safely on scene. For example, take two firefighters who encounter a scenario that has been studied by a governing body, say NFPA. Both have read the NFPA reports but one has been through college and the other hasn't. The insight, or lack thereof, into the methods of studying these scenarios and aggregating statistics about it may lead the two to different conclusions and a different level of understanding. The person who has a deeper understanding of what was being studied has a much better chance of being mentally flexible than the person who takes the report at face value when it comes to dealing with the situation themselves.

I think being mentally flexible, adaptive and able to improvise are some of the most important abilities a good firefighter must possess. And a college education can certainly help this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In some fire depts. the Federal courts have said that requiring a degree discriminates against some canditates, so only a HS deploma is a requirement. This rule has been in effect for 30 years.

Our Police dept. requires an associates to get hired, BA/BS for Sgt., Masters for LT.

We use to have parity in our pay, but thats long gone....hmmmmmmmmmm Who's smarter those with or those without?

[helicopper 1,050]

In addition to what others have said about promotional exams, etc., college prepares you for a second career, either concurrent or post fd/pd career. What happens if, God forbid, 4 years into your career you must retire on a disability? Sit around all day? Or be prepared to find another job? I just heard on the radio yesterday that prospective employers do not want people that are not currently employed, no matter the experience. So employers are not hiring people with experience in the field already, how would you fare in the job market? A degree is something at least.

If you do 20 years as a cop and got hired at 22, that means you are retired at 42. What will you do the rest of your life, live off of a pension? Doubt it...

Whether you have a degree in fire science or criminal justice or basket weaving, the degree is most certainly worth more than the paper it is printed on. I get paid a (slightly) higher rate with the FD, due to having a bachelors degree. I imagine other jobs have similar wage scales. As much as I thought college was a waste of time while I was there, the further away from it I get, the more I realize how important it was. Not just from a communication and time management perspective, but from a general knowledge standpoint. While in college, I was required to take public speaking, philosophy, sociology, psychology, history and literature classes. All of these classes help create (hopefully) a well rounded individual. From job interviews to everyday work activities, these core skills come in handy.

The most valuable part of getting a college degree has almost nothing to do with what is studied. It's about learning HOW to learn. These are valuable skills that can be applied to the fire service, and they can put someone with a college degree well ahead of those without.

Sure, drive and determination are important in any industry, but without certain skills all that drive and determination will lead to simply spinning your wheels. Some people acquire skills in unconventional ways, but when you look at groups of people you have to look at patterns of behavior and the correlations that can be used to draw conclusions about the likelyhood of causality. You can't make a rule out of the exceptions (and there always will be exceptions). This is like the thread about teen drivers where the teens all thought the rules should be changed because they themselves were capable.

I think a college education also increases the ability of the firefighter to operate safely on scene. For example, take two firefighters who encounter a scenario that has been studied by a governing body, say NFPA. Both have read the NFPA reports but one has been through college and the other hasn't. The insight, or lack thereof, into the methods of studying these scenarios and aggregating statistics about it may lead the two to different conclusions and a different level of understanding. The person who has a deeper understanding of what was being studied has a much better chance of being mentally flexible than the person who takes the report at face value when it comes to dealing with the situation themselves.

I think being mentally flexible, adaptive and able to improvise are some of the most important abilities a good firefighter must possess. And a college education can certainly help this.

Great posts mstrang1 and AJU. Thank you!

When I was 21-24, I didn't see the "need" for a degree either. 20+ years later I feel much differently and am glad that I have them.

The core skills a degree provides and the application of them in a professional setting makes you a better employee and open more doors for the future.

Are there plenty of college educated waiters and waitresses, bartenders, and sales people? Of course. But there are no doctors, lawyers, engineeers, or architects without one.

It is ironic that requiring a degree is discriminatory in the fire service but at least an Associate's Degree is a pre-requisite in law enforcement.

[mstrang1 213]

In some fire depts. the Federal courts have said that requiring a degree discriminates against some canditates, so only a HS deploma is a requirement. This rule has been in effect for 30 years.

Our Police dept. requires an associates to get hired, BA/BS for Sgt., Masters for LT.

We use to have parity in our pay, but thats long gone....hmmmmmmmmmm Who's smarter those with or those without?

Maybe I'm using my college education here, but why is it okay for private companies and the federal government to require some kind of further education, but municipalities are discriminating against certain individuals or groups if they require a degree? Why are cities so special?

I like the graduated post HS requirements of NRPD.

In response to your last point, those with law degrees are the smart ones...

[gamewell45 258]

In an age where having a Bachelor's degree is becoming as common as a high school diploma, and the economic climate giving a greater pool to choose from, should a college degree, at least an Associate's be required?<BR><BR>On the flip side, college isn't for everyone. We're losing a lot of skilled blue collar workers because of colleges.

Depending on what your future professional path is going to be will be what determines whether or not you need advanced education upon graduation from High School.

If your planning on selling newspapers on the street corner, turning burgers at McDonald's or working as a golf caddy, then perhaps you needn't worry about having further education once you achieve your high school Diploma. That being said, In most business fields these days, many employers want to see further education; in their minds, further education is proof that you have matured, have a business mind-set, have the proper knowledge in your area of expertise and should be able to have the proper command of the English language so when you speak, so people can make sense of what your saying and also be able to write to a level that is acceptable to those you will be interfacing/working with.

Aside from the public sector rank and file jobs, in particular, the private sector these days demands for most jobs, an advanced degree; most requiring a minimum Bachelors Degree in order to be considered for employment. Indeed, even in certain circumstances, public sector rank and file jobs, if you have a higher degree of education, it certainly helps you obtain employment over one who has either a high school diploma or GED.

While knowledge is always a good thing to have, it should not be a requirement for employment because there are jobs out there where a college degree is not necessary as of the type of work that is being done requires no additional education beyond high school, such as many entry level service industry jobs. Obviously for many management positions (for those of you aspiring to move through the ranks and become the big kahuna) will require further education depending on the industry your in. I think that in the public sector, having a higher education is a definite plus and if you have the means to secure a higher level of education, by all means, you should do it.

On a final note; most individuals who possess higher education degrees as a rule tend to make more money as opposed to those who work jobs that don't require further education, excepting certain jobs which are union represented and those employees on a larger scale are very well compensated in comparison with their college educated counterparts.

[wraftery 1,275]

Does a FF NEED a degree?

To be an officer, probably, just for teaching/writing skills and the like. For someone who wants to get into the Hazmat field, a degree in chemistry would certainly be useful. But for a FF? I say maybe...maybe not.

This thread talked about Doctors, Lawyers, Bill Gates, and so on. Then there are Rocket Scientists, Neursurgeons, and other genuses out there. Could any of them be FFs? Who do they call when they are scared, sick, have a basement full of water, have a tree through their house, mixed some chemicals together and now they are choking, or their house is filling with smoke? Right, they call 911 because somebody will be there in five minutes and will have a solution to their problem.

Does he need a degree? No. A good FF needs the ability to stuff volumes upon volumes about everything into his back pocket. Then, at two o'clock in the morning, getting up out of a sound sleep be able to reach into that back pocket, pull out the correct solution for the caller's problem.

So, Chiefs, If you meet up with a guy that wants a job and has the ability I just described, don't ask him if he has a degree. Just hire him.

[mstrang1 213]

With that said, I do feel that certain fields, such as Medical, Teaching, and Engineering are very technical and do rely heavily on schooling, but others, such as Business, Trades(electrical, construction, plumbing, ect) and Emergency Services are all about the kind of person you are by nature and on the job trainning and experiance.

Also, Common Sense, a vital skill that many people are lacking, cannot be taught at any college or trade school.

This is only one person's opinion, I apologize if I offended anyone.

Upon reading this a second time and expanding on Wraftery had said in his post, I have a few things to add to my prior post. As a fire officer, you do need medical, teaching and engineering backgrounds to do your job proficiently. Not at the level of a professional teacher, Dr, architect, etc, but a knowledge of these areas is essential. Medical training you get on the job as an EMT (or Paramedic) if your job requires it. A background or further knowledge is important, especially if you are going top be training others in this area. Medical knowledge is also useful in the areas of rehab, RIT, etc. Teaching is also essential. As a company officer, you are expected, in most departments, to handle company level training. This can be a single company or multiple companies. The people you are attempting to train may have been on the job before you were born, may be probies, or may be your equal. You must be able to handle many different styles of teaching. Engineering comes in handy in many ways as well. Structural engineering comes into play when assessing the stability of a building on fire or other duress. You should be able to handle basic ideas of civil and electrical engineering as well. So as a fire officer, you are playing the role of pseudo- doctor, teacher and engineer. Plus a million different roles, like secretary, human resources officer, referee, mechanic, public information officer, etc.

[antiquefirelt 994]

As I've said before, I do not think a degree, as a requirement, is necessary. Does a degree give the holder a better chance at success? Probably in the long run, the answer is yes. But a significant portion of this job is task oriented and much of it comes to strong people doing tough work. If you think the degree is necessary, why not test for what it is you're really looking for? As an officer you do need a broader skill set and knowledge base, but don't for a minute think there aren't tons of great officer out there without a sheepskin.

Again, if the degree provides a leg up in testing and assessment, so be it, as long as it doesn't give points just for possession. A proper assessment system tests personnel for the attributes your organization finds necessary to do the particular job. A company officers role is different from a chief. Task oriented with leadership qualities and the ability to teach are maybe more important that public speaking in most FD's. While in some FD's the Chief maybe more of department manager and City Hall person, still others rely on the COD to actually run day to day business and respond to routine incidents.

We have maybe a 50/50 mix of personnel with or without degrees, and I really can't see any one of them having a lead on another due to the degree. While some have better study skills (not all though) some lack life experience and any work in a private field, which tends to help motivate people.

As hard as it seems, one can go back to school and learn a trick or two later in life. If I had my way, we'd suggest classes to personnel that would help them I the long run. A course load full of elective BS doesn't do much. A large part of the fire science degree programs don't offer as much insight as an ambitious firefighters first 5 years of OJT and fire service training opportunities. Of course some schools offer far better programs and instructors than others, adding yet another level of question to the issue.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I like FDNY's policy of requiring a degree for officers. When you are tasked with critical thinking to find solutions to literally any problem that arrises, and being responsible for the lives of your crew, I think it's reasonable to have a degree that shows you can manage time, problem solve, learn, and memorize. For an entry level firefighter who is being told what to do for the most part, I don't think it should be a requirement.

[The Axe 8]

I'll take the firefighter with street smarts and common sense over the firefighter with book smarts every time. An experienced firefighter who takes a promotional exam and does well has every right to be made. A college degree has no bearing on their knowledge and ability as a firefighter or boss.

[MoFire390 118]

alot of states do not require a college degree for some of there applicants. i have applied for several out of state tests and the state of Michigan does not require applicants to have a college diploma. so no i dont think that firefighters should have a college diploma